Comics What if...

[gliderpilotgirl]

MJ was one of many things which contributed towards his slide, having Norman as a father undoubtably was a larger factor.

 

[Dragon]

LOL...I remember when Gwen layed that guy out, that was awesome. The thing is though, that later in that same issue she confronted Peter about it because she was beginning to believe it....

Again- she wanted Peter to be straight with her. Regardless of her thoughts on his character, she knew something was up with him.

And it certainly isn't like MJ hasn't reflected doubts about Peter. ALOT.

Anyway, you said yourself that thoughts in MJ's head proved that she didn't know that Peter was SM, but even if she did, MJ would have never dismissed him. Although she likes to hide it, MJ is a really good person. Who was the one who spent the most time with Harry while he was in the hospital? MJ was (Peter was out with Gwen and out being SM).

And she was also the one who worsened Harry's addiction with her generally *****y behavior. I don't blame Harry's addiction on her. We all make our own choices. But she could have handled it WAY better than she did. And let's not forget she turned down Peter's first marriage proposal (which was ill-conceived to begin with) because she wanted to date other guys. I know alot of folks love MJ because she's always been Spidey's girl for the length of their experience reading the comics; And for many of you women, she's your window into Spidey's world, which would be inaccessible for you going Peter's route. But the fact is, their romance isn't something magical and charmed. It's a relationship like any other, with ups and downs. And in alot of cases, the handling has been very poor.

Anyway, you can't have it both ways darlin'. Either you believe she always knew or you don't. I was debating the issue from the prespective that she does because you seemed to accept that. I mean, when she first revealed she knew, I was cool with the idea that she simply figured it out, or long suspected it and the events of ASM #257 merely confirmed it (It was just too unbelieveable a coincidence that Spidey would just show up in the nick of time). But then Marvel again had to take things too far by explaining that she knew since the first night Spidey became a crime fighter. How ririduclous, and unnecessary.

I guess we can never really know how Gwen would have handled Peter being SM, but we know MJ has given herself to Peter dispite the fact that she could have easily married some famous actor or director to jump start her career.

Well, at least we know that MJ isn't that shallow.

But my point has always been that both Gwen and MJ have suffered from the "superhero girlfriend" complex. The major excitement in the relationship is the pursuit, not the relationship itself. Simply because compared to the action-filled life of a superhero, sitting around at home with the girlfirend/wife is boring after a short time of romantic bliss. For a female lead to carry her own weight, she has to bring more to the table than being pretty, loving and supportive.

Like I've been saying over the past weeks/months- Stan Lee is the master. 35 years after his leaving Spidey, every other writer- EVERY ONE is still eating his dust. With Gwen, he laid out the groundwork for Spider-Man's perfect mate. As I'd mentioned, she could have generated numerous story arcs. It's just that Gerry Conway (Whose run I love BTW) couldn't pick up on it and run with it.

But Gerry was bad with relationships anyway. He handled the relationship with Thor's girl Sif even worse than with Gwen. Sif risked her life and even surrendered her life for Thor numerous times- and Conway even had her give her life to save Thor's former girlfriend, that Stan jettisoned. But Conway didn't even have Thor shed a tear for Sif. And you'll note he left Spidey immediately after bringing Peter and MJ together.

And that's the problem now. And why the writers (with the exception of Peter David) want the marriage ended. It's easier to handle the will-they-won't-they part of the relationship than the actual relationship itself.

 

[fangrl06]

Uh Mj actually caused Harry to start using drugs, when she started to mack on Peter in front of him

What are you talking about? MJ and Peter's first kiss was after Harry had already become GG2 and Gwen was dead.

 

[fangrl06]

MJ was one of many things which contributed towards his slide, having Norman as a father undoubtably was a larger factor.

 

[Dragon]

What are you talking about? MJ and Peter's first kiss was after Harry had already become GG2 and Gwen was dead.

He's referring to ASM #97 when MJ started flirting with Peter in front of a very shaky Harry.

 

[fangrl06]

He's referring to ASM #97 when MJ started flirting with Peter in front of a very shaky Harry.

Yes, I know but she and Harry were not an item. Harry just wished they were. And Harry started dating Gwen before Peter did anyway, while MJ and Peter were going out. Not exclusively of course.

 

[fangrl06]

He's referring to ASM #97 when MJ started flirting with Peter in front of a very shaky Harry.

Although you and I do not agree 100% on everything, I have to say I'm impressed with your SM knowladge.

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Yes, I know but she and Harry were not an item. Harry just wished they were. And Harry started dating Gwen before Peter did anyway, while MJ and Peter were going out. Not exclusively of course.

She and Harry were dating, Osborn even introduced his father to her. And than after he pops the pills in 97, and feels great, she tells him to go **** himself causing him to OD later on, than leading to his eventual "flashback" in ASM 121. Not only that, MJ is still hitting on Peter at Harry's own "welcome back" party

 

[fangrl06]

She and Harry were dating, Osborn even introduced his father to her. And than after he pops the pills in 97, and feels great, she tells him to go **** himself causing him to OD later on, than leading to his eventual "flashback" in ASM 121. Not only that, MJ is still hitting on Peter at Harry's own "welcome back" party

Yes, but Harry and MJ were not serious. And besides, MJ was a ***** before Gwen died. It's part of her charm. We get to see her grow. I like Gwen, but MJ is just better for Peter to me.

 

[Dragon]

Yes, but Harry and MJ were not serious. And besides, MJ was a ***** before Gwen died. It's part of her charm. We get to see her grow. I like Gwen, but MJ is just better for Peter to me.

I'm curious as to your reasons for saying this. What has MJ brought into Peter's life that Gwen couldn't?

 

[fangrl06]

I'm curious as to your reasons for saying this. What has MJ brought into Peter's life that Gwen couldn't?

Excitement. MJ is not your run of the mill love-intrest. Sorry to say, but Gwen is. Sweet girl next door? Very clich'e. How often does the hero end up with the messed up party girl?

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

you know what I like about MJ? She has faults. She actually grew in the series, Gwen didn't. Dragon, have you ever read MadGoblin's "Why did it have to be you MJ?" on his site? He explained it out very well.

 

[Dragon]

Excitement. MJ is not your run of the mill love-intrest. Sorry to say, but Gwen is. Sweet girl next door? Very clich'e. How often does the hero end up with the messed up party girl?

Okay. I'm not knocking your love of MJ.

But MJ is certainly the girl next door. In fact, she's physically the girl next door since this is how it was retconned that she saw Peter change to Spider-Man. She's not that messed up, either. Her problems are pretty run of the mill. She isn't drugged out, cut off or screwed-up. She was just kinda *****y. She had an unhappy home life. Get in line. And that story was hot for about 5 minutes. It's 20 years later and we've seen nothing about that for this long.

On the other hand, Gwen was far more than just the girl next door. She could have brought REAL excitement to Peter's life and ours, in the form of great stories.

But moreover, MJ and her problems certainly didn't bring any excitement into Peter's life. He had nothing to do with that part of MJ's life.

 

[Dragon]

you know what I like about MJ? She has faults. She actually grew in the series, Gwen didn't. Dragon, have you ever read MadGoblin's "Why did it have to be you MJ?" on his site? He explained it out very well.

Ah yes. MG's dissertation. Yes, I've read it. Debated it. Some of his edits of the article are due to points I've raised (Such as why MJ did or did not do drugs).

MadGoblin writes some terrific articles, but we part ways on the MJ thing. MJ was not better for Peter. She was just available to Peter.

 

[fangrl06]

Okay. I'm not knocking your love of MJ.

But MJ is certainly the girl next door. In fact, she's physically the girl next door since this is how it was retconned that she saw Peter change to Spider-Man. She's not that messed up, either. Her problems are pretty run of the mill. She isn't drugged out, cut off or screwed-up. She was just kinda *****y. She had an unhappy home life. Get in line. And that story was hot for about 5 minutes. It's 20 years later and we've seen nothing about that for this long.

On the other hand, Gwen was far more than just the girl next door. She could have brought REAL excitement to Peter's life and ours, in the form of great stories.

But moreover, MJ and her problems certainly didn't bring any excitement into Peter's life. He had nothing to do with that part of MJ's life.

That is the writers fault now isn't it.....I think it would be interesting if they showed how messed up MJ is because of her abuse at home and have Peter get involved. Here's an idea: MJ's dad sees MJ in a play and hunts her down and beats her out of jealousy and self-pity. Then Peter could get angry and beat the crap out of MJ's dad causing conflict between MJ and Peter and Maybe a law suit on Peter....that would be an interesting issue. Anyway, I'm not Gwen-bashing, I love the character, I'm just over it. She was an interesting Character, but I think they milked all of the stories out of her that the could have.


R.I.P. Gwen Stacy

 

[Dragon]

That is the writers fault now isn't it.....I think it would be interesting if they showed how messed up MJ is because of her abuse at home and have Peter get involved.

That could have been good, but it's about 20 years too late for that to happen now.

Here's an idea: MJ's dad sees MJ in a play and hunts her down and beats her out of jealousy and self-pity. Then Peter could get angry and beat the crap out of MJ's dad causing conflict between MJ and Peter and Maybe a law suit on Peter....that would be an interesting issue.

But you see, that's not a Spider-Man level problem. For example- when Stan wanted to inject Betty's life issues into Peter's- he didn't just have her brother a criminal- he had him work for Doc Ock. That's a Spider-Man level problem. And again, Ock was used (athough it could have been another villain, but Ock or GG would have been most appropriate) to kill Gwen's dad.

Like I'm saying, whoever Peter's girlfriend/wife is going to be, has to generate Spider-Man level events. Not just soap opera stuff for Peter.

Anyway, I'm not Gwen-bashing, I love the character, I'm just over it. She was an interesting Character, but I think they milked all of the stories out of her that the could have.


R.I.P. Gwen Stacy

But then, if you accept that line of thought as reasonable, then you should understand when the writers say the same thing about MJ. 20 plus years we're talking.

Although on the other hand, I wonder what stories if any were milked from Gwen at all. I've been making lists of stories that Gwen could generate that haven't been touched on at all.

 

[Jack O'Lantern]

Gwen and Peter would most likely have gotten together. I wouldnt say that they would stay together tho. Peter would have to reveal his secret to her eventually, or she would somehow figure it out. She wouldnt appreciate the fact that her husband was the man that she blamed for killing her father, and also the one that caused her to be kidnapped by the Green Goblin. Still, Gwen (or someone else) could have died eventually. Its just a likely thing. Since Peter is Spider-Man, his loved ones are a target for his enemies. Baby May being born of course depends on if Peter ever gets together with MJ.

Norman would probably not have been killed. Peter would have beat the holy hell out of him after he saved Gwen, but I doubt he would have been killed. Peter would be releived that Gwen was alive, and wouldnt have been in such a mindless rage as to nearly fall for the Goblin's trap.
I doubt Harry would have become the second Green Goblin, as he would have no reason for hating Peter. Norman would still be the Goblin and would have no reason to tell Harry about his or Peter's secrets.

 

[fangrl06]

That could have been good, but it's about 20 years too late for that to happen now.



But you see, that's not a Spider-Man level problem. For example- when Stan wanted to inject Betty's life issues into Peter's- he didn't just have her brother a criminal- he had him work for Doc Ock. That's a Spider-Man level problem. And again, Ock was used (athough it could have been another villain, but Ock or GG would have been most appropriate) to kill Gwen's dad.

Like I'm saying, whoever Peter's girlfriend/wife is going to be, has to generate Spider-Man level events. Not just soap opera stuff for Peter.



But then, if you accept that line of thought as reasonable, then you should understand when the writers say the same thing about MJ. 20 plus years we're talking.

Although on the other hand, I wonder what stories if any were milked from Gwen at all. I've been making lists of stories that Gwen could generate that haven't been touched on at all.

Hmmm...it might be interesting to see Marvel put out an intire what-if series based on if Gwen had lived. All the stories that would have been if Gwen had lived. Marvel are you reading this?

BTW: I've been meaning to ask you.....how do you feel about Gwen being in SM3?

 

[fangrl06]

Gwen and Peter would most likely have gotten together. I wouldnt say that they would stay together tho. Peter would have to reveal his secret to her eventually, or she would somehow figure it out. She wouldnt appreciate the fact that her husband was the man that she blamed for killing her father, and also the one that caused her to be kidnapped by the Green Goblin. Still, Gwen (or someone else) could have died eventually. Its just a likely thing. Since Peter is Spider-Man, his loved ones are a target for his enemies. Baby May being born of course depends on if Peter ever gets together with MJ.

Norman would probably not have been killed. Peter would have beat the holy hell out of him after he saved Gwen, but I doubt he would have been killed. Peter would be releived that Gwen was alive, and wouldnt have been in such a mindless rage as to nearly fall for the Goblin's trap.
I doubt Harry would have become the second Green Goblin, as he would have no reason for hating Peter. Norman would still be the Goblin and would have no reason to tell Harry about his or Peter's secrets.

I agree with you on most of that, but do you really think Peter would wait until they were married to tell Gwen the truth? I think he would have told her the truth awhile after they had been together and it would create a major story arc between the two. I really don't know if Gwen could handle him being Spider-man, but if a good writer made it believable, I might change my mind.

 

[Dragon]

Hmmm...it might be interesting to see Marvel put out an intire what-if series based on if Gwen had lived. All the stories that would have been if Gwen had lived. Marvel are you reading this?

That's actually a pretty cool idea and one I've long been thingking of myself.

BTW: I've been meaning to ask you.....how do you feel about Gwen being in SM3?

I'm skeptical, since MJ has pretty much been written like Gwen in the movies. I also don't really know the purpose of a love-triangle at this point, since Peter in the movies (as opposed to the comics) went celibate rather than engage in a relationship.
I've also heard disturbing things like Gwen being ****ty or that Evil Peter is the one that's really pursuing her (Unfortunately from the guy who's leaked alot of correct info on the movie). But in ther overall i'm just hoping the movie turns out well. I am very excited about seeing it.

 

[fangrl06]

That's actually a pretty cool idea and one I've long been thingking of myself.



I'm skeptical, since MJ has pretty much been written like Gwen in the movies. I also don't really know the purpose of a love-triangle at this point, since Peter in the movies (as opposed to the comics) went celibate rather than engage in a relationship.
I've also heard disturbing things like Gwen being ****ty or that Evil Peter is the one that's really pursuing her (Unfortunately from the guy who's leaked alot of correct info on the movie). But in ther overall i'm just hoping the movie turns out well. I am very excited about seeing it.

double post.

 

[fangrl06]

That's actually a pretty cool idea and one I've long been thingking of myself.



I'm skeptical, since MJ has pretty much been written like Gwen in the movies. I also don't really know the purpose of a love-triangle at this point, since Peter in the movies (as opposed to the comics) went celibate rather than engage in a relationship.
I've also heard disturbing things like Gwen being ****ty or that Evil Peter is the one that's really pursuing her (Unfortunately from the guy who's leaked alot of correct info on the movie). But in ther overall i'm just hoping the movie turns out well. I am very excited about seeing it.

I've heard that evil Peter was pursuing her, but I didn't hear that she was ****ty! That really sucks. I wonder if they are making her into more of an MJ character. I'm glad to see her finally on the big screen, I just hope Raimi does her justice. Dispite believing MJ is better for Peter, I still am a Gwen fan. I really would like to see a series based on if Gwen had lived. Something much better then the what-if that was already out.