What would ruin,.. or what HAS ruined a hero for You?

[moraldeficiency]

MJ isn't leaving the book. In fact she is central to the first storyarc of BND.

If you're talking about jackpot I'd prefer if she just died.

 

[PhotoJones]

MJ isn't leaving the book. In fact she is central to the first storyarc of BND.

Oh my God, shut up.

 

[KangConquers]

No I'm not. I was saying pete has fought powerful groups on his own. Most of the power houses cap and logan have fought they've done as part of a team which would obviously make it easier for them. I did say iron man is on a whole other level. But if you consider stand alone villains for cap or logan like batroc, crossbones, king cobra (for cap) and lady deathstrike, sabertooth, cyber (for wolvie) they're get slaughtered by venom or carnage or sandman or electro.

Wolverine hasn't taken on Apoc as an individual only on a team with others, Pete's beaten Juggs, every time wolvie has fought mags alone he gets schooled. What I'm trying to explain is that wolvie and cap fight these upper level threats in a group whereas Spider-Man is generally on his own and out numbered. Respect.

Spider-man has literally fought almost everyone in the MU. He's been to space, fought thanos many times, beat firewalker (though that was bs IMO), He's been to many other dimensions and times, and every continent in the world except antartica (that I know of). Yeah he's mainly a NY guy, but you could say that about the avengers or X-men or in fact 90% of all MU heroes.

I'm not forgetting Wolverines training or history. But remember back in the day he wasn't fighting too many other supers just normal guys which is a cake walk for him. If your counting continitity then considering the numerous Spider-Man books, MTU, and guest appearences then he's in the top five of most experienced fighters in the MU.

I said Tony is on another level, though I'd say he could learn a few tricks about resourcefulness from him.

I wasn't saying he's better than cap or wolvie just that they should have shown him more respect in NA than just making him the funny guy that has problems with ninjas that he's beaten countless times by himself.

You bring up good points, but calling Spider-Man the most experienced fighter in marvel is a stretch.

Also, I fully believe that Cyber could eat Venom for breakfast, but that's a fight for another day.

 

[PhotoJones]

I also stopped reading X-Men around 1885 or so...

Dude, how old are you?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

You bring up good points, but calling Spider-Man the most experienced fighter in marvel is a stretch.

If I am not mistaken didn't Captain America try to train both Pete and MJ only to find that Peter fought totally on instinct and had a much harder time learning the fighting moves than MJ did.

 

[moraldeficiency]

If I am not mistaken didn't Captain America try to train both Pete and MJ only to find that Peter fought totally on instinct and had a much harder time learning the fighting moves than MJ did.

You are correct. But pete has developed his own very unique fighting style over the years to deal with larger groups and opponents more powerful than himself. He's not a traditional fighter, but he is a very good one.

 

[KangConquers]

You are correct. But pete has developed his own very unique fighting style over the years to deal with larger groups and opponents more powerful than himself. He's not a traditional fighter, but he is a very good one.

Exactly...I'm not selling Peter short...he's a better fighter than about 75%...

It is worth noting that most of Peter's foes are NOT good hand to hand combatants. They're just powerful, which is why Peter usually mops the floor with them.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

You are correct. But pete has developed his own very unique fighting style over the years to deal with larger groups and opponents more powerful than himself. He's not a traditional fighter, but he is a very good one.

I think Kang's brings up a very valid point. I've read [most of] the Spider-Man comics produced, and aside from very rare occasions, usually he fights within his rogues gallery (as one would expect). However what most of us forget is that in his own comic he is very small potatoes outside of New York. For example, when Stan Lee penned the book Spider-Man would travel to Florida only to find many didn't recognize him there. Or in England where they had only heard of him as legend. Even into the 200 and 300s we were seeing Spidey 'get away from it all' in other states where the authorities and gen.public. paid little attention to him. He's still very much a local hero who handles localized threats.

Furthermore, while he has fought many, most of his rogues, as Kang points out are people like Hobgoblin, Hammerhead, the Rose, the Kingpin, or Scorpion who wouldn't really pose a major threat to other, more experienced heroes.

I mean even Green Goblin hadn't fought a single other hero until recently.

So Peter certainly has done a lot for one guy, but to me it seems he isn't as experienced as you make him out to be.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Exactly...I'm not selling Peter short...he's a better fighter than about 75%...

It is worth noting that most of Peter's foes are NOT good hand to hand combatants. They're just powerful, which is why Peter usually mops the floor with them.

Very true pete rarely fights trained fighters, well except ninjas. Pete generally beats his opponents by outsmarting them and using unusual techniques to get them off guard.

 

[KangConquers]

I think Kang's brings up a very valid point. I've read [most of] the Spider-Man comics produced, and aside from very rare occasions, usually he fights within his rogues gallery (as one would expect). However what most of us forget is that in his own comic he is very small potatoes outside of New York. For example, when Stan Lee penned the book Spider-Man would travel to Florida only to find many didn't recognize him there. Or in England where they had only heard of him as legend. Even into the 200 and 300s we were seeing Spidey 'get away from it all' in other states where the authorities and gen.public. paid little attention to him. He's still very much a local hero who handles localized threats.

Furthermore, while he has fought many, most of his rogues, as Kang points out are people like Hobgoblin, Hammerhead, the Rose, the Kingpin, or Scorpion who wouldn't really pose a major threat to other, more experienced heroes.

I mean even Green Goblin hadn't fought a single other hero until recently.

So Peter certainly has done a lot for one guy, but to me it seems he isn't as experienced as you make him out to be.

Also, as much as we diss Batroc the Leaper (and why not?) he is a master of hand to hand combat, as is everyone in Captain America's rogues gallery.

Spider-Man's rogues, like Sandman, and Venom offer a different challenge: Raw Power. If you stripped Venom of his class 15 strength, Batroc would wipe the floor with him.

Also, Wolverine's Rogues gallery may not be full of strength, but it is full of healing factor and martial arts mastery. I could see Sabretooth taking Carnage under the right circumstances.

 

[Xofenroht]

I'm not sure what it would take to turn me off of a certain character. I like looking at them as I would other people, meaning there are things they might do that might surprise us, but there are certain cores to who these characters are supposed to be that shouldn't be messed with.

Really, the only thing that turns me off to a character is really lazy plot lines.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I think Kang's brings up a very valid point. I've read [most of] the Spider-Man comics produced, and aside from very rare occasions, usually he fights within his rogues gallery (as one would expect). However what most of us forget is that in his own comic he is very small potatoes outside of New York. For example, when Stan Lee penned the book Spider-Man would travel to Florida only to find many didn't recognize him there. Or in England where they had only heard of him as legend. Even into the 200 and 300s we were seeing Spidey 'get away from it all' in other states where the authorities and gen.public. paid little attention to him. He's still very much a local hero who handles localized threats.

Furthermore, while he has fought many, most of his rogues, as Kang points out are people like Hobgoblin, Hammerhead, the Rose, the Kingpin, or Scorpion who wouldn't really pose a major threat to other, more experienced heroes.

I mean even Green Goblin hadn't fought a single other hero until recently.

So Peter certainly has done a lot for one guy, but to me it seems he isn't as experienced as you make him out to be.

Spider-Man is at this time is famous around the world.

Scorpion is written poorly and has become a punching bag for others to get respect much like wolverine is now. He's actually extremely powerful and dangerous.

Kingpin is a thinker, he brawls pretty well but you saw what pete can do to him in BiB.

Rose is only a thinker.

Hobgoblin has some skills and a pretty good bag of tricks, he's not a pushover and he's worlds over someone like Batroc.

GG focused on Pete. I don't know if a dangerous genius with superpowers and immense capital focusing their lives on destroying Pete's should be considered a weakness for him.

If you count the number of cannon fights Spider-Man has been in including all guest apperances and such he's had many more fights than anyone else in the MU. He's also fought and stood his ground against the X-Men as a team, the FF, and many incarnations of the Sinister Six and other arrangements of many of his villians teaming up to take him down.

Here's what I'm saying: put a guy in a few thousand fights where he's out numbered and out classed more than half the time. If he comes out of it alive then the experience has made him into a pretty amazing and capable fighter.

I was never saying pete's the best fighter in the MU, but I am saying RESPECT.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Also, as much as we diss Batroc the Leaper (and why not?) he is a master of hand to hand combat, as is everyone in Captain America's rogues gallery.

Spider-Man's rogues, like Sandman, and Venom offer a different challenge: Raw Power. If you stripped Venom of his class 15 strength, Batroc would wipe the floor with him.

Also, Wolverine's Rogues gallery may not be full of strength, but it is full of healing factor and martial arts mastery. I could see Sabretooth taking Carnage under the right circumstances.

He's the master of Savate, it's more foot to foot combat. No Savate Champion has ever won a martial arts challenge when they've had to fight masters in other forms. Jean Claude Van Damne's incredibably hilarious ass kickings in every tournaments should show this.

Sure if you took away a Supervillian's powers then someone more capable would win, but what does that prove? You would kick my @ss in a fight if you first tied me up with chains then shot me in the gut, but we're not exactely fighting at our normal levels so I don't think you could count that as much.

I could never see Sabretooth taking Carnage, not even to the movies. Carnage would skewer him then probably be delighted to find he had a guy with a healing factor that he could torture relentlessly for months. Remember Carnage has fought very experienced fighters and it's almost always taken multiple people to bring him down.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Dude, how old are you?

Ha, just noticed that. Corrected to 1985.

 

[Xofenroht]

Man, I think a lot of people have underestimated Sabretooth. He's not so easy to defeat. Spidey's rogues would have a hard time with any of Logan's, just because the villains match the hero.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Man, I think a lot of people have underestimated Sabretooth. He's not so easy to defeat. Spidey's rogues would have a hard time with any of Logan's, just because the villains match the hero.

Black Cat mopped the floor with Sabertooth...

 

[Xofenroht]

Black Cat mopped the floor with Sabertooth...

She has probability altering powers, though and I think Psylocke could clean Black Cats clock (and we all know what happened between Sabes and Psy).

 

[PhotoJones]

She has probability altering powers, though and I think Psylocke could clean Black Cats clock (and we all know what happened between Sabes and Psy).

Which time?

 

[Xofenroht]

Which time?

The "BIG ONE". Of course, I don't think I even had reading level back then, but I remember it being so bad that Logan and Angel had to get her the Crimson Dawn. Oh wait, yeah, I could read.

 

[PhotoJones]

Before that she beat him. Or at least evaded him well enough and long enough for Wolverine to beat the crap out of him. In doing that, the X-Men offered her a spot on the team. And that was all pre-Asian, ninja Psylocke, too.

 

[Varient]

Black Cat mopped the floor with Sabertooth...

As did Iron Fist.

 

[Xofenroht]

Tsk...Sabretooth kicks ass.

'Nuff said.

 

[Varient]

The (post) Clone Saga. I had no interest in reading a Spider-Man book with someone other than Peter Parker as Spidey, so i dropped the books for the first time in my life. To this day, there's a sixteen month gap in my Amazing Spider-Man collection...


I also stopped reading X-Men around 1985 or so...it's been so long i forget, but it was when Cyclops, Nightcrawler, and Colossus (my three favorite X-Men, incidentally) were all written out of the book and replaced with lame-asses like Longshot and Dazzler...i hated that. Never actually got back into X-Men again either...

I guess basically, if you take my favorite character (s) out of their own books for very long, i eventually lose interest and move on...(Brubaker, im looking at YOU, lol )...

very true.
I stopped reading daredevil when they brought back electra, Stopped reading ironman when he went to the red and silver and then went back to red and gold w/o using the tech from the red and silver, Stopped reading Captain America after he had to wear armor because his super soldier serum was failing,.....

Ive gone from regular stacks that came to my knees to stacks barely 2 inches thick due to this kind of thing.

 

[Xofenroht]

For the longest time I didn't want to read anything involving Nightcrawler because of the story involving his father.

 

[PhotoJones]

For the longest time I didn't want to read anything involving Nightcrawler because of the story involving his father.

You mean that demon ****?