Well, it's just there's a difference between a respectable beat down and just plain old humiliation, and Thor ended up on the humiliation side of the fence in Vs (like Batman getting beaten up by the thug who looked like Ray Charles in the cathedral near the end of the 1989 Batman - at least Bats had the excuse of having just survived a plane crash
). Thor only got in five or six hits in each fight and the rest was him being beaten to death (or near death) by Hulk. He doesn't even attempt a different strategy, he just stands there being pounded on; he gets up only to be knocked down again, less effective each time. Even in a society where a lot of pop culture entertainment preaches the 'never give up' philosophy, Thor just looked stupid & pathetic for not retreating or playing dead after being knocked through the mountain, buying time to think of some other strategy (there's nothing brave or heroic about letting yourself get beaten to a pulp). Some of Superman's fights in the DCAU had him being knocked around a little too easily (see inconsistent power level complaint), but even DCAU Superman never got beaten on as badly as this. The only excuse I could throw out for it is that Thor may have been feeling jet lagged from fighting off an army of miscreants all week before Hulk showed up, but that would still be a poor excuse.
And I was more hyped for the Thor segment, since Thor has gotten so little action in the realm of animation over the years while Wolverine is basically Marvel's money ****e (along with Spider-Man), and was hoping this would help wash out the bad taste of Next Avengers, where Thor got the 'Superman Returns' treatment. Now I'm not sure I should even be interested in that young Thor feature they're holding off releasing until next year.
Plus, you just know they'd NEVER subject Wolverine to such a drawn out & humiliating beat down, even if it was against Super Saiyen 4 Hulk (or whatever those Dragon Ball terms are - I never actually watched DBZ all the way through, though I know some of its voice actors were also involved with X-Men Evolution, Beast Wars & the 2002 He-Man series), just because Wolverine sells the most toys.
Sorry I hijacked the thread for a Thor rant.
S'okay. I hijack threads for rants all the time.
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, Wolverine has had his share of downright ludicrous or humiliating defeats in his animated library.
- Thrown into a wall and getting stuck ("A Firestar is Born", Season 2 SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS). His first animated appearance, actually.
- Passing out from being BURPED UPON (Season 2, 90's X-MEN series)
- Having Blob fall atop him (Season 1, X-MEN EVOLUTION)
- Having a teenage girl kick him in the shin (Season 2, X-MEN EVOLUTION)
Superman had some downright lousy defeats in the first season of Justice League. A school girl with a grenade could have dropped him that season.
In comparison to all that, being beaten into a coma by the Hulk in his most berserk state isn't THAT bad. But, on the other hand of course, Wolverine has MANY more animated showing than Thor and many more animated victories under his belt. I do see your point. In HULK VS. THOR, Thor seemed to act as if he had never faced an opponent who survived one of his hammer blows before and after Hulk would get up from an attack, Thor would usually just take it. It could have been paced and storyboarded better to seem more evenly matched. The bits where Thor is at the brink of death, though, and cool, and the overall story of that short was actually rather solid, for a Thor adventure.
I do agree that it could have been handled better. But, Thor'll be a regular in AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES with Chris Yost solo, so who knows. Not to mention THOR: TALES OF ASGARD might not suck.
Panthro said:
I'll concede she was somewhat more interesting than the others (anyone else notice she was wearing Thor's costume form the Ultimates universe?), but it's still sad to think of all the money that was wasted on that DTV when it could have been used to make a DTV about Marvel's actual heroes (I'm still waiting for solo DTVs of Captain America & Daredevil). Too bad as well, NA gave Thor arguably his best voice actor in Michael Adamthwaite (who voiced Balder in Hulk Vs. - and also voiced Colossus in Evolution, what little dialogue he had there).
Adamthwaite also voiced Namor in two episodes of FANTASTIC FOUR: WORLD'S GREATEST HEROES from 2006, and played the male lead in "SWORD OF THE STRANGER", an anime film from 2007 that was just dubbed by Bandai. He's a fine actor from Canada's Ocean Group when given enough lines to work with.
I wasn't overly thrilled with "NEXT AVENGERS" either; there were other ways to make an animated feature for kids than that. The kid characters should have had a bit more originality; they were very stock. That said, Ultron was cool there, at least.
However, at the "PLANET HULK" screening on 1/14 in NYC, Joe Quesada himself said he'd like to see an animated Captain America DTV from Lion's Gate; telling his death story, basically. Considering that DC released "SUPERMAN: DOOMSDAY" as the first of their generation of DTV animated films, that's hardly a bad idea. Josh Fine would love to make a Blade animated DTV. Marvel & Lion's Gate will be discussing their next 8 or so animated specials soon so everything is on the table. But...yeah. Joe Quesada himself said he'd like an animated Captain America DTV.
Panthro said:
Must... not... comment...
I suppose Cyclops could always mysteriously "disappear" during a mission & be given up for dead by the X-Men (since that seems to be how they roll in this version - unless the MIA member is Wolverine of course), then have him turn up to have been found & seduced/brainwashed by the villains. Wouldn't surprise me if they did that.
If they did allow the AoA Cyclops (playfully known as Bizarro Cyclops in some regions) that little bit of nuance, that would actually make him more heroic than regular Cyclops. Which would be sad yet funny at the same time.
That's possible. It also is possible that Jean starts to develop feelings for Wolverine, which drives Cyclops over the edge and towards Sinister to try to revive Frost. The writers usually are fans of more "traditional" subplots, and it has been a long time before a cartoon has done that whole triangle. The 90's show did it to an extent, but Jean was firmly with Scott and there was little tension that would actually change long term. In AGE OF APOCALYPSE, Jean is with Logan/Weapon X long term (some people joke that Jean ends up with Logan in nearly every alternate reality). For every person tired of that triangle, there is another who misses it in X-Fandom.
And, to play Devil's Advocate, if Cyclops is going to go off the deep end worse in Season 2 than he did in 1, having it be because Jean is starting to love the person that Cyclops literally blames for all the turmoil he ever had in his life, that's a fairly good reason to go a bit nuts. "Breakdown", while it was interupted by the Phoenix, seemed to reveal that Cyclops seemed to blame Wolverine for his current troubles and for messing up the cosy lifestyle he had with the X-Men. Wolverine wouldn't have to return Jean's affections for this effect to probably happen.
Of course, Jean's could be turned off that Cyclops was so morbidly obsessed with her while she was missing. In the comics, Jean used to TK blast Cyclops if he even so much as looked at Psylocke, so one can imagine what would happen if Scott ever missed Frost. Women like being loved, but to the point that their man stops shaving, stops caring about anything, all but commits suicide over losing them? Granted, I was never the biggest fan of Jean, so I'm biased.
It is possible that Season 2's arc, at least one of them, will be seeing a "Dark Cyclops" and then trying to redeem him, with AGE OF APOCALYPSE either showing what happens if that doesn't happen or providing the key to preventing it, much as Future Logan basically led to ending the Phoenix threat in the present; by knowing what went wrong in the "past".
As "Breakdown" seemed to hint, the issue wasn't Cyclops being demoted; it seemed, at least in his mind, that he could never really cut it. He was never the leader of the X-Men and was only competent after Jean came along, and then Logan showed up and started to distract her. In Scott's defense, Logan respected no boundaries over their relationship and flirted with her in Scott's face, which would irritate even the strictest boy-scout. Season 1 reunited Scott with Jean but it didn't really resolve his personal quest for redemption. If anything, it proved Scott right to be so morbidly obsessed. That's annoying for Season 1, but if Season 2 wants to resolve that in a more dynamic and dramatic way, we could be due for what TV Tropes call a "Crowning Moment of Awesome". In Apocalypse's first appearances in X-FACTOR, Cyclops blasted the living spit out of him in one splash page at the end of some arcs. So, who knows. So long as something is executed well, I'm open.
Panthro said:
I'll let him know you approve.
Well if there's one thing it seems we can all agree on, it's wanting Colossus to have one really good knock down drag out fight with Juggernaut (or some other similarly large tanker type villain).
At least one. The last time Colossus and Juggernaut locked up was in 1993-1994. The show did itself no favors making Juggernaut look like a flop in his first appearance, but I guess they didn't want to "waste" a whole episode establishing Juggernaut as unbeatable save for his weakness, as the prior two X-Men cartoons did. Of course, WITHOUT that, he looked weaker than the Rhino (who, in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN came off as damn near unstoppable his first episode in costume), but I digress. It could be very cool. The 90's show had no animation budget, and this show has one. Various X-Men have distinct and/or imposing and unique methods of doing things. Wolverine slicing an X into a wall and kicking it down, as some demonstrate, is cool enough for an avatar. Nightcrawler teleports with his trademark smoke, Cyclops shoots his blasts and so on. Colossus, though, turns to steel and smashes stuff, and that should look imposing regardless of who or what he is fighting. That doesn't mean he always has to win; but that he shouldn't ever look weak.
.
