Josh Fine Talks Wolverine And The X-men, Season 1

[TheVileOne]

The folks at Marvel Animation Age are conducting a 3 part interview series featuring show associate producer, Josh Fine, who is also the director of development for Marvel Animation.

Not a lot of insight in regards to what will be happening in season 2. But it's a nice look at how some of the big ideas in the first season came about and how they evolved:

Marvel Animation Age is proud to present the first installment of a weekly three-part interview with Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men. This three-part interview will look back at the first season of the successful Marvel Animation series Wolverine and The X-Men, providing a behind-the-scenes look at the creation and progression of this lauded animated series. Each installment will be posted on the Thursday of its respective week and also feature production artwork released by Marvel Animation. Please note this three-part interview will contain spoilers for Wolverine and The X-Men.

Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men, knew how the inaugural season of the new X-Men animated series was going to end from the very beginning. Before a single frame was animated, he and the rest of the creative team behind the acclaimed Wolverine and The X-Men knew exactly how that final first season episode, those final minutes, would play out. But no matter how meticulously planned and prepped the show was, the creative team still came across plenty of surprises along the way.

“We had much of the finale mapped out from the start,” says Fine, “But as with any 26 episode season there are always some twists and turns that you wouldn’t expect when you get started.”

“Sometimes you get into the last episodes of the season and realize that a character has evolved to a slightly different place than you expected,” Fine continues. “In order for the story to feel organic, you really have to be attentive to that and not try to force your preconceived plans into place.”

Fine says that the fundamental building blocks were in place when creating the storyline for the first season of Wolverine and the X-Men. The creative team knew the majority of Magneto’s plan, knew that The Inner Circle was after Jean and that Emma was a mole the entire time. These concepts were put into place early on by Greg Johnson and Craig Kyle, the creators behind the new animated series. Wolverine and the X-Men was then essentially constructed backwards to aid in creating and maintaining the show’s assorted mysteries throughout the first season.

“There were some unexpected turns though,” Fine adds. “Emma’s death was probably the biggest for us.”

Given Emma’s role in the series, as a mole strategically placed by The Inner Circle in the X-Men to uncover the Phoenix, it only seemed natural that her time with the team would eventually crack her façade.

“Once we started revealing and exploring Emma’s motivation and her interactions with The Inner Circle in 'Foresight, Part 1,' it started to become clear that there needed to be tension within that group,” recalls Fine. “Given everything that Emma had learned and experienced as one of the X-Men, we realized that the completion of her character journey for the season required some kind of redemption.”

“As soon as we hit upon how that redemption would play out, with Emma absorbing the Phoenix and shattering, we immediately knew it was right,” continues Fine. “It was the emotional hook that we needed to really end the season with impact, on top of just being a really powerful and mournfully beautiful image.”

Fine mentions that the redemption of Emma, and her tragic fate, also nicely brought Cyclops’s arc for the season to a close.

Another twist that happened late in the game was Magneto’s kidnapping of Kelly, according to Fine. Up until that point, the plan was for Magneto to simply goad Kelly into attacking Genosha and then to retaliate accordingly. Those plans changed though as soon as the episode “Aces and Eights” came together.

“We realized that Xavier and Wolverine would be acting irresponsibly if they didn’t at least make the effort to show Magneto and Kelly what was coming,” Fine says. “They needed to have one last ditch effort to lay all the cards on the table.”

Looking back at the first season of Wolverine and the X-Men, Fine is proud of how everything came together to provide an epic season finale, one that he believes paid off in spades. An admittedly daunting task, Fine says the creative team put themselves under a lot of pressure to make sure the first season, and its finale, delivered in a big way.

“We had lots of story threads that we had been building up for 23 episodes and we needed to find a seamless way to intertwine them in a one big, epic finale,” says Fine. “It had to wrap up a lot of storytelling but still feel bigger and more action-packed than anything up until that point.”

“…and I hope fans enjoyed it!”

The article has some nice character line art.

I eagerly await Dread's expert analysis.

 

[TheVileOne]

Part 2:

Interview With Joshua Fine, Associate Producer of "Wolverine And The X-Men" Series
December 17, 2009 by James Harvey

Marvel Animation Age is proud to present the second installment of our weekly three-part interview with Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men. This three-part interview looks back at the first season of the successful Marvel Animation series Wolverine and The X-Men, providing a behind-the-scenes look at the creation and progression of this lauded animated series. New installments are posted on the Thursday of its respective week and also feature production artwork released by Marvel Animation. Please note this three-part interview will contain spoilers for Wolverine and The X-Men.

It was always going to be Phoenix as the one who ripped apart the X-Men and put the future in danger, according to Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men. Jaws dropped when fans found out that the explosion which shattered the X-Men’s world in the three-part series opening episode “Hindsight” was not actually caused by the likes of Magneto or anti-mutant groups, but by one of their own.

“Phoenix was always the direction we were heading,” said Fine. “We knew she was behind the destruction of the mansion and that The Inner Circle and Emma Frost kicked everything off and would therefore be integral to the final episodes.”

“While Magneto and Senator Kelly were facing off in an ever-escalating confrontation, there was a group waiting and watching in the shadows that plans bigger than either of them.” Fine adds.

All of the pieces fell into place bit by bit toward the end of the first season, allowing the creative team to carefully sow together the big reveal of the season finale. With the MRD’s defenses all but eliminated and Magneto himself vulnerable, both sides of the anti-mutant war were experiencing weaknesses that allowed the perfect opportunity for the Inner Circle to intervene and seize control, setting up the game-changing season finale.

The choice to bring the Phoenix into Wolverine and the X-Men was a simple one, according to Fine. The creative team was looking for the perfect device to create the post-apocalyptic future and the Phoenix is one of the new Marvel Universe characters that can bring about just that.

“Phoenix not only provided the right transition to that future but also gave us a great mystery to open the series with,” says Fine. “We did take some liberties in dodging some of the Phoenix’s cosmic history from the comics, as we wanted it to feel grounded in the world we had already established.”
“Interestingly,” Fine continues, “the concept of the mythological bird that Phoenix is based on really does appear across many cultures in history, so it didn’t seem like too much of a stretch to say that the Marvel version of the character was the same.

“Research played a heavy role in creating their version of the Phoenix, according to Fine. In the series, The Inner Circle tracked and researched the Phoenix for centuries, as this force of nature made its presence known throughout history, an idea that Fine says manifested itself from conversations with the creative team. Fine adds that their take allowed for the Wolverine and the X-Men design team to cut loose when creating the various Phoenix artifacts from The Inner Circle’s archive, something they took great pleasure in.

A main concern, not only for Fine but the whole creative team on Wolverine and The X-Men, was the level of complexity for the series. From the very first episode, the creative team did not want to dumb anything down for the audience, but provide viewers with real character arcs and story progression that evolved from episode to episode.

“We wanted for this to feel like a single epic journey that you would want to own on DVD or Blu-Ray and watch over and over, but continuity is a double-edged sword.” Fine says. “On the one side you get the benefit of a storyline and characters that really evolve from beginning to end, but you have the looming threat that you might drown in too much complexity on the other.”

Fine said the creative team dealt with this on an episode to episode basis, trying to make it feel like each episode had a distinct beginning, middle and end to the story.

“As a casual viewer tuning into the middle of the season, you might not get why the status quo is the way it is,” continues Fine, “Hopefully you still get a very clear picture of who the characters are and what they’re trying to do in that particular episode.”

In an attempt to help make the series more accessible, one-off Wolverine-centric episodes including “Wolverine Versus the Hulk” and “Code of Conduct” were created to serve as a breather for both the series and the viewer. When production on the series started, Fine says there were key Wolverine stories that the creative team really wanted to explore in single episodes as a way to give the Wolverine and the X-Men’s main protagonist some history and dimension.

These episodes would also serve as an entry point for casual viewers according to Fine, but also provide something fresh and a little different to the dedicated fan.

“I know some fans were frustrated by a couple of our detours because they were chomping at the bit to find out how the main story was going to unfold,” says Fine, “But those episodes shine a lot brighter on repeat viewings, in large part because they are so self-contained and specific. They really added to the show.”

 

[TheVileOne]

Part 3:

Interview With Joshua Fine, Associate Producer of "Wolverine And The X-Men" Series
December 24, 2009 by James Harvey

Marvel Animation Age is proud to present the third and final installment of our weekly three-part interview with Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men. This three-part interview looks back at the first season of the successful Marvel Animation series Wolverine and The X-Men, providing a behind-the-scenes look at the creation and progression of this lauded animated series. Please note this three-part interview contains spoilers for Wolverine and The X-Men.

Looking back, Joshua Fine, Director of Development for Marvel Animation and Associate Producer for the first season of Wolverine and The X-Men, has a hard time picking out his favorite moments. Given the long and intricately woven season long story-arc for Wolverine and The X-Men’s first year, it’s easy to understand why. Still, Fine was able to comb through the first season of the latest X-Men animated series and come up with a “top five” of what he considers to be his memorable highlights from Wolverine and the X-Men inaugural television outing.

“’Future X,’ where we really get to have fun with the ‘Days of Future Past’ scenario and explore Xavier as an active protagonist.” tops off Fine’s personal top five list, followed up by ‘eXcessive Force.’ “Just getting to see Cyclops kick some serious butt and his fight with Multiple Man is one of my favorites in the series.”

Continuing his list, Fine lists “Battle Lines” at third place with “Guardian Angel” coming in second. Fine cites the parallel speeches between Magneto and Senator Kelly in “Battle Lines,” which he states still gives him goosebumps, and the role this episode played in ramping the season up to a different level for its high placement. Moving on to the second slot in his top five, Fine sees “Guardian Angel” as one of the more relevant and emotional stories of the season due to the conclusion of Angel’s tragic story and the interaction with the character’s father. Seeing Archangel unleashed for the first time is another reason Fine rates it so highly.

But, out of the first 26 episodes of Wolverine and The X-Men, what tops Fine’s list?

“’Breakdown,’” says Fine. “This is probably my favorite episode from beginning to end.”

“It’s got such an atypical structure to it, which I’m a fan of.” he adds. “I’m also a big Cyclops nut, and getting to see his back-story play out was very rewarding.”

But the best part of this episode for Fine, and why it deserves to top his?

“The X-Men First Class!” exclaims Fine.

Fine acknowledges that an incredible of manpower went in to not only creating his favorite episodes, but the entire first season of Wolverine and The X-Men. In fact, Fine says this show was in the works long before it was even announced, with work on the Wolverine and The X-Men’s first season story stretching back to late 2005.

“We have had a long time to sit and scrutinize these episodes,” says Fine. “Overall I think everyone that worked on the show is pretty proud of how it turned out and is excited for what the future might hold.”

At the same time, Fine adds that no one is more critical of Wolverine and The X-Men then the creative team on it. The creative team is constantly trying to identify areas of where they could have approached things differently, looking for improvement

“Between our own scrutiny and reading the message boards, which can in turn be the most rewarding or most depressing experience depending on who’s posting, I think we continue to learn and get better and better with every episode we do.” says Fine.

“I can say that one thing specifically that is always a challenge on this series is dealing with the time-travel nature of it,” Fine continues. “Trying to preserve continuity in any story that deals with time travel is always a bit of a headache, but we’re very attentive to it.”

Fine says the key is making sure the creative team knows the rules are and sticks to them, but not at the cost of forgetting to tell compelling and emotional stories.

“At the end of the day, knowing that X leads to Y which triggers Z doesn’t get us anywhere unless the audience is going to feel connected to what the characters are going through,” Fine explains. “So that’s always our M.O.”

And that M.O will continue into the second season, but what exactly can fans expect from Wolverine and The X-Men when new episodes debut in late 2010?

“I’m going to stay tight-lipped on season 2,” Fine says coyly. “You’ll have to watch to find out!”

OK, so hopefully late 2010 for season 2. Agh, no more hints at season 2! C'mon Marvel, don't leave us hanging.

Anyway, hopefully we can get some more juicy tidbits in about 7 months at SDCC.

 

[Zant]

Great interview.I can't believe he reads message boards,doesn't he know the majority of x men comic fanboys are very whiny and nitpick things to death sometimes.(he should ask Bryan Singer ) Fan feedback is good and important for any show but he should not listen to every feedback and suggestions.Deadpool is cool but he should not be forced on the creators just because he has a large fanbase

 

[Dread]

I'm a little disappointed although not surprised in the official announcement of "Late 2010" as the launch point for W&TXM season 2. It can take anywhere between 7-12 months to complete one episode of a modern comic based animated TV show, and the average is usually closer to 10-12 months than 7. A SSM insider claimed it took 10 months at least for every SSM episode, and I imagine W&TXM is similar. Decent animation takes time, folks. Every step of the process takes a while. In a way that is why I am a harsh critic sometimes, when I can catch something amiss that I felt a professional that has looked at it far longer than I should have caught.

The interview with Mr. Fine was cool, allowing Marvel Animation Age the scoop. As a producer, he's essentially a level above the editor, but he doesn't actually write every episode. Still, nothing gets passed along without his say so. I'm not going to quote specific lines and whatnot because that's a bit silly; Josh Fine isn't here to respond and "debating" when only one side is in real time is a bit petty. I'll just try to respond to his insights, besides the Season 2 air-date.

I still think W&TXM Season 1, and everyone involved including Fine, did try to do something a bit different with this show, but in a way they wanted to have it both ways. They expected the audience to have enough knowledge of the normal X-Men status quo that they felt they could destroy it in the pilot without missing a beat. The problem was the show also felt, like all animated shows, that they could make up their own continuity. The "past" of the X-Men or individual characters were not the same as the movies, or the comics, or prior cartoons, or Ultimate. The show picked and chose what it felt would work best for it from all those sources for it's backstory. Which is fine; all cartoon adaptations do that and 21st century ones have more options than, say, early 90's shows did. I'm all for that. But you can't assume the audience knows the backstory and status quo of the X-Men enough to destroy it immediately, and then change said backstory or status quo when it suits them. You can't have it both ways. I genuinely think at this stage the season would have flowed better had "Hindsight" been 4 parts and the first part was sort of a "day in the life" kind of episode, detailing the status quo of the X-Men in enough detail that when the big BOOM happens, it really shocks you. Rather than only having barely 5 minutes in flashback to see it. Season 1 had a "get to the point, get to the point" rush for their storyline at times, and I think as the second half of the season started, that lack of foundation made the flow more awkward than it had to be. Fine claims that some surprises came along as they wrote the season, and I think it showed a bit.

You can have a storyline breathe without diversions to fight the Hulk or Silver Samurai, FYI. Considering HULK VS. WOLVERINE was on the shelves, and did NOT tie into W&TXM at all no matter what Craig Kyle says, I think that episode would have been the easiest to sacrifice to have made "Hindsight" stronger. But, and I am aware of they irony, that's 20/20 hindsight itself.

Every time one of the W&TXM writers or producers claims to "like Cyclops", I cringe because the result is often similar to when Brian Bendis on NEW AVENGERS says he "likes" a character. For those not in the know, every time Bendis gives an interview and makes a point to say he "likes" a character, he either:
1). Kills them
2). Brutalizes them
3). Writes them very, very poorly
4). Gets their power wrong.
5). Often has a theme in the story detailing how stupid the character is or was in the past or present and how the almighty Bendis knows how to do it right.

Sometimes I genuinely wonder if the show's writers and producers are even aware of how borderline unsympathetic they made Cyclops this season. They focused on him plenty, and if anything, they avoided the hurdle of the 90's show and in no way made Cyclops "boring". Say anything you want about Scott in this show, he was never boring. I think they focused so much on making Scott a flawed character, that they overdid things along that angle and made him TOO flawed; a comic book example of a character this is often done so is Sentry. Too much of a good idea, to be generous. When I came into the show I thought reversing the roles of Logan and Scott would be terrible and never work; if anything, Season 1 showed it could work if executed better. Wolverine took on all of the selfless qualities people accuse Scott of bring "boring" for having and became a clawed den mother. Cyclops, meanwhile, took on a lot of Logan's angry loner biker aspects and could never carry that role effectively; he was always screwing up and ultimately needing the X-Men to bail him out. When was the last time Wolverine needed the X-Men to save him on a loner Weapon X quest? Or a fight with the Hulk or Ninja?

I agree that "Breakdown" was a unique episode overall. I could argue that an episode like that is still very "new" in American TV superhero animation, it is rather old hat in Japanese anime; that's kind of a statement on how behind America is in that medium, I think. It's not Josh Fine's fault, and if anything W&TXM helped push along the idea of tight serial storytelling. I recall when I first "discovered" anime in junior high in the mid 90's I imagined it inspiring U.S. cartoons to up their game; never did I imagine that networks would just use cheaply dubbed import anime to replace most U.S. animation to save costs and maximize profits. I guess when I was 12, I wasn't as cynical as I am now, and was less experienced.

(Although to be fair, many "inner monologue retrospective" episodes in TV anime are usually justifications for "clip" episodes to save costs while meeting a broadcast deadline. NARUTO was sometimes notorious for this. Most American cartoons these days don't do that.)

"Breakdown" 's main flaw to me, and this is after watching it a few times, is it painted Cyclops as never being a leader or in any way above competent as an X-Man. If anything, it showed that he had been a petty emotional wreck since he was a kid, and despite all of Xavier's coddling he didn't even begin to get it together until Jean came along. The first time Jean's affections for him are even HINTED of being challenged, he lashes out like a spoiled brat and Logan gets to prove to be the more honorable man, even at his "jerkiest". The episode showed that Logan was not filling Cyclops' place; he was filling a seat that Cyclops had never filled himself, because he was too flawed. That not only diminished Scott, but it also made Logan's accomplishment of holding the team together have less weight. He wasn't replacing Scott in the role; he was replacing nobody. He had merely filled a void that had been there since Xavier founded the X-Men. At no point in "Breakdown" is the viewer given any impression that Cyclops was ever competent.

I suppose one could say that it added a layer to Cyclops' resentment in one area. Not only was he angry for losing Jean, and angry at Xavier for "choosing" Logan, he was angry that Logan despite all his faults was a better leader than he ever was on his best days. The problem is Cyclops never overcame that. He and Logan argued until the end. He never had to learn to let go of Jean, because they found Jean. He never had to step up, because Frost defeated the Phoenix for them. If anything, it was his complete (and almost willing) ignorance of Frost's feelings for him despite all of his faults that probably inspired her to sacrifice herself at the end (that, and guilt). The moment when Logan decides to trust Frost, it isn't because Cyclops felt that way. It was because Future X told him (and he learned that from Future Logan). I felt many characters accomplished something in this season and overcame, or succumbed to stuff. Wolverine was able to reunite the team and hold them together, albeit needing intellect and mental coddling from Xavier at times. Nightcrawler managed to meet Scarlet Witch and help convince her that Magneto wasn't what he seemed. Angel wound up falling from grace due to a personal tragedy and slipping into temptation. Rogue managed to successfully infiltrate the Brotherhood and wound up realizing that she could trust Logan, that this time he wasn't abandoning them (at least for longer than a weekend or two). Compared to that, Cyclops really didn't overcome anything. He didn't overcome his obsessive grief; Frost found Jean for him. He didn't prove himself to the X-Men; if anything, even in the finale he proved to abandon them at the first mention of Jean. About all Cyclops proved was that he has some judge of character, at least with women, but no one acknowledged it or cared. Cyclops was a hero who never had to ovecome any of his many faults because circumstances, and others, solved or attempted to solve his obstacles for him. On the other hand, Cyclops doesn't succumb to his issues like Angel does, not completely.

I'll concede that I can understand why some viewers feel that Cyclops was handled 100% well this season. If the theme was to write Cyclops as an outcast even among X-Men, mission accomplished. I can understand many a nerd at home having resentment at the "cool guys" like Logan who waltz in and seem to have everyone at their back, succeed despite their faults, have no one call them on their mistakes, and fill roles they were never able to do, and perfectly, rooting for Cyclops and not getting hung up on the issues that I do. I can imagine such viewers not caring that zapping someone in the back when they refuse to fight you is wrong; they just figure Logan has it coming for being a jerk.

If anything, W&TXM sure made Cyclops the center of attention in many ways!

But, time to stop being so negative. Not all was bad or mishandled. Nightcrawler came up aces this season; this was truly the best version of the character put to animation. He fought well, all of his episodes were good, the voicework was good, the animation for his teleports was lovely, and so on. There seemed to be a sense to me that the production crew was going, "Okay, this time there is no Kid's WB. This time we are getting Kurt right" and they did. While I think Angel's relationship to Ororo could have been amped up via a subplot for more than, oh, 2 minutes before he became Archangel, on the whole this show managed to capture that aspect of him both as an idealistic hero and then becoming a tragic pawn to Apocalypse. While Rogue's subplot with Logan seemed to vanish about midway through the season, for those first 13 episodes it made for great story fodder. Mr. Fine states wanting to keep the aspect of Phoenix grounded without the space stuff and that worked out rather well. They also seemed to do that in a way with Mojo; he could be from another dimension, or he could just be the craziest cyborg leading a team of other crazy cyborgs. While I have never, ever liked Mojo, this show handled him way better than the 90's one did.

The Magneto/Kelly subplots were naturally part of the strength of the season; so much so that it felt awkward when they took a back seat to Phoenix at the end. Magneto was handled well and I see that Fine rightly invested a lot of effort into handling that stuff. A lot of that was very strong. My only quibble is Rogue beat him WAY too quickly when Xavier & Logan wanted to "lay their cards on the table". If it was so easy to beat Magneto (just have Rogue grab him, game over), why was he still a threat? Rogue is a character who is very easy to make overpowered, and at times it reached that point in EVOLUTION; she could beat anyone with a touch, ANYONE, even Juggernaut or Apocalypse, and could also gain their power, and usually use it better than the host. Rogue seems to always use Cyclops' optic blasts better than he does, for instance. W&TXM, though, beyond that one moment managed to keep Rogue decently powered, I thought. If the movies did anything, they reminded producers of her original, non-Ms. Marvel powers (even if, yes, W&TXM did homage those powers at times).

Kitty had some good moments, and I know a lot of people didn't like the "Valley Girl" angle to her in EVOLUTION, but I thought that Evo's Kitty was sweet and adorable even with her saying, "like, totally" 1500 times. This show's Kitty seemed to often act too spunky to the point of being borderline annoying; Kim Possible would have found her "too much of a Type A". She wasn't usually nice to anyone who wasn't a little kid. But then again maybe I never cared for female characters who punish boys who like them by teasing them and making them feel like idiots; it's girls like that which create many a lonely, resentful nerd (or inspire many men to act like jerks, who thus make women embittered, and the cycle continues). She usually had some good lines, but I don't know; I liked Evo Kitty better. Still, good to have her.

Iceman, Storm, and Beast were ciphers this season, and Fine doesn't have much to say about them. Which is fine, there wasn't much to say about them period this season. They were there, they zapped stuff, had a few lines (Storm the least of the three), 'nuff said. Personally I was surprised Fred Tatasciore wasn't given some episode to really have a ball with Beast by the end, considering how much the crew seems to like him.

Still, and I know this sounds like a non-compliment, but one advantage is this show isn't one that peaked too soon, like HEROES. The first season was good enough to break above the pack of mediocrity on TV and define itself as the new X-Men show that's not like the rest. There was a lot it did well but not so much that everyone is going, "gosh, how do they top that?" like what happened with seasons of SSM or TMNT (and even that show's debut season in 2003 wasn't their best). There's a lot to improve upon and make better, and if the writers have been truly objective with their prior work and are devoted to upping their game for the second season, there's no way it can't top it and be aces.

I still don't envy the task of writing Scott/Jean/dead Frost as a character subplot. If Fine and company can reconcile that without making Scott a cad, they'll have more than earned their money. For a typical MB fanboy know-it-all, I have little idea how to really settle that conundrum, and I hope the writers prove me wrong about it.

This show did have a great version of Magneto. He wasn't the sheer villain of Evolution, nor the angsty anti-hero of the 90's show, but a proper mix of both, with a solid design (besides the high heels) and good voicework. I still think Quicksilver looks older/creepier than intended, but he had some moments. Domino made a memorable debut as a regular on an X-Men show, even if her powers are really stated as, "shoots very well". Mr. Sinister also had a good return to form after a near decade of being missing from TV; he's actually one of my favorite X-Men villains. It was also very cool seeing other classic X-Men villains, the Marauders, finally show up in a cartoon; the Nasty Boyz were very 90's (even if, to be fair, the Marauders are very 80's). While the storyboarding for the action sequences wasn't always as good as, say, the storyboard work on SSM, when it was on, it was very good; Cyclops vs. Arclight in particular, as well as Cyke vs. Multiple Man were memorable. Wolverine got the lion's share of action in the show, but it seemed Cyclops and Nightcrawler got the more memorable sequences.

Bishop was done well; I didn't like him in the 90's show but he came off well here. I preferred the Evolution design to the Sentinels and this show had them once again return to being too easy to destroy (although, thankfully, not to the degree that the 90's show did, where even Jubilee could destroy two by herself). Season 2 will have to find a better reason around Future X to keep from repeating themselves, but that shouldn't be as hard. I will be curious how Apocalypse is handled, and how AOA is homaged and to what extent.

Wolverine, though, has to become less of a thief of other characters' subplots and be more of his own character. Usually Rogue and Nightcrawler are the ones with emotional tension with Mystique; here Logan has that, ALL of it. Usually Cyclops is the overburdened pet student of Xavier struggling to fulfill his vision and keep the team together; here Logan has that. I think Logan needs to retain more of his own distinctive traits rather than being everything for everyone. Or at least a better job of it should be done in Season 2.

I thought it was a good interview. Whatever issues I had with Season 1 I don't think were deliberate, at least mostly, but a result of the sort of organized chaos that comes from having to make a 26 episode season ready to air in X amount of time. I'll be patient for season 2 so long as it raises the bar above season 1.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm a little disappointed although not surprised in the official announcement of "Late 2010" as the launch point for W&TXM season 2. It can take anywhere between 7-12 months to complete one episode of a modern comic based animated TV show, and the average is usually closer to 10-12 months than 7. A SSM insider claimed it took 10 months at least for every SSM episode, and I imagine W&TXM is similar. Decent animation takes time, folks. Every step of the process takes a while. In a way that is why I am a harsh critic sometimes, when I can catch something amiss that I felt a professional that has looked at it far longer than I should have caught.

Dread, however long it takes, if the plan means another 26 episodes, I would rather the wait be longer if it means a longer season.

Remember how long we had to wait inbetween seasons for Venture Bros. 2 and 3?

I still don't envy the task of writing Scott/Jean/dead Frost as a character subplot. If Fine and company can reconcile that without making Scott a cad, they'll have more than earned their money. For a typical MB fanboy know-it-all, I have little idea how to really settle that conundrum, and I hope the writers prove me wrong about it.

Dread, when will you accept it. SCOTT IS A CAD! Cyclops = Cad. Look up Cad and you will find a picture of Cyclops.

 

[Dread]

Dread, however long it takes, if the plan means another 26 episodes, I would rather the wait be longer if it means a longer season.

Remember how long we had to wait inbetween seasons for Venture Bros. 2 and 3?

Remember how long we had to wait to hear whether there'll be a third season of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN? Oh, wait, we're still waiting.

Yeah, I understand. I'm not crying a river. Sure, I'd rather it was Spring 2010 vs. "Late 2010", but so long as they're done well, I don't mind a wait. Hopefully, though, we see some promotional images and maybe a teaser within a few months, though, at least. I mean, heck, the images shown at the SDCC weren't even "officially" released beyond one blurry snapshot of Deadpool that floated around.

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN will have to make it for a third season with another 26 episodes to surpass the two longest running Marvel cartoon shows to date; the 1990's X-MEN at 76 episodes, and the 90's SPIDER-MAN at 65. At 52 episodes, though, W&TXM will be the longest running Marvel show since X-MEN: EVOLUTION, although they took 4 seasons to get to episode 52. Newer Marvel shows, especially shows NOT organized with Kid's WB, seem to be averaging at least 26 episodes a season lately. Even FANTASTIC FOUR: WORLD'S GREATEST HEROES had 26 episodes in their lone season. It's a lot of episode time that many shows don't have per season, so hopefully they use it wisely and wiser as they go along.

My personal grade of Season 1, especially after having rewatched it with a friend from his perspective (he's a more "mainstream" type of fan than I) remains a grade of B. Considering B- is the high side of "average", that still means I think Season 1 was above average despite all my nitpicks. That's fine for a debut season no matter how many episodes it has. We can all think of shows that weren't above average their first season; THE BATMAN is the quickest example. Much of FF:WGH's lone season wasn't. Even X-MEN EVOLUTION, many argue (not me exactly), didn't start to hit a real stride until the end of the second season (which would have been episode 30-31). This isn't a show like BRAVE AND THE BOLD where I just watch it casually and forget it after it ends. I do care about it, and want it to be as good as can be.

Dread, when will you accept it. SCOTT IS A CAD! Cyclops = Cad. Look up Cad and you will find a picture of Cyclops.

He wasn't a cad in Evolution. He wasn't a cad in the 90's show. He isn't always a cad in the comics. It depends on how he is written.

I'd argue if Cyclops is a cad, Wolverine should be far worse, into straight out jerk territory. But he never is in this show; and that is the problem. A rivalry is no fun if one man is clearly superior and the other clearly inferior. Wolverine's flaws never, in any possible way, interfered with the X-Men or hinder their missions. Cyclops', on the other hand, are magnified and always messed things up. Season 1 was very one sided in that way, and that was a shame because if it wasn't, the dynamic would have been more interesting.

The problem is that cads are not sympathetic, and I'm not sure the writers genuinely want to write him as being unsympathetic deliberately, it is just something that comes off by impression as a result. Josh Fine clearly doesn't seem to think Cyclops comes off as a cad in this interview.

No one is going to feel sorry for Cyclops if Season 2 comes along and he is moping about Frost after all but self destructing and taking the X-Men with him in Season 1 because he lost Jean. It wouldn't be a problem, but I sincerely doubt Frost will be dead forever, especially as being shattered failed to kill her in the comics. He'll come off as a selfish whiner who is never happy despite having all these attractive ladies falling for him. Granted, Peter Parker sometimes comes off that way in some comics, too.

 

[nikbackm]

I still don't envy the task of writing Scott/Jean/dead Frost as a character subplot. If Fine and company can reconcile that without making Scott a cad, they'll have more than earned their money. For a typical MB fanboy know-it-all, I have little idea how to really settle that conundrum, and I hope the writers prove me wrong about it.

I'm pretty certain that this sub-plot will not re-appear in season two, since as you say, there's really no good way for the writers to handle it. Not if they want to keep the image of boy-scout Cyclops, which it seems they will, appearances in season one to the contrary.

Most of the writers and producers also seem to prefer the "classic" X-Men from what I have read in the interviews on this board, especially now if Craig Kyle will not be involved in the next season.

It's not as if there will be a lack of other characters and plots competing for screen time with a AoA remake coming up and a lot of under-utilized X-Men from the first season still as well.

So the chances of Frost being resurrected as happened in the comics seems very, very slim to me, even if I'd love to be proven wrong. The main difference between her death here and in the comics is that there her "death" happened just in the middle of an ongoing storyline, but here it rather served as the ending of it, as a "redemption equals death" even, those are always harder to get back from as far as I've seen.

 

[TheVileOne]

Tell that to Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, and Ollie Queen.

 

[Panthro]

Sometimes I genuinely wonder if the show's writers and producers are even aware of how borderline unsympathetic they made Cyclops this season.

Good question. Here's another one - what's the point of putting Cyclops in 2nd or 3rd place for focus when all that focus does is make him an unsympathetic jerk? Maybe it's me, but I find it hard to root for a character just because he "isn't boring". The Joker isn't boring, but you don't root for him. Mr. Sinister isn't boring, but you don't root for him either.

 

[EvilClareToo]

“It’s got such an atypical structure to it, which I’m a fan of.” he adds. “I’m al“It’s got such an atypical structure to it, which I’m a fan of.” he adds.

I nearly spat out my drink when I read that. I agree Breakdown was a good episode, but as Dread said, they overdid the "flawed hero" part.

This show's Kitty seemed to often act too spunky to the point of being borderline annoying; Kim Possible would have found her "too much of a Type A".

This is why I like this Kitty-she reminds more of Whedon's Astonishing Kitty, who is far more assertive and not the wallflower "OMG!" type that she is sometimes portrayed in the comics. Not that I disliked Evo Kitty (I really liked her too, when they toned down her Vally-ishness), but I like this one better. Maybe its a girl thing...

But then again maybe I never cared for female characters who punish boys who like them by teasing them and making them feel like idiots; it's girls like that which create many a lonely, resentful nerd

Really, I didn't see her like this at all! You sure you are not confusing her with Emma?

Nightcrawler came up aces this season; this was truly the best version of the character put to animation.

Amen! Glad to see the Elf get some love! He is a great character, and his "romance" with Wanda was done very well, as well as the use of his powers.

The show picked and chose what it felt would work best for it from all those sources for it's backstory. Which is fine; all cartoon adaptations do that and 21st century ones have more options than, say, early 90's shows did.

True, but it also can be its biggest detractor. While many characters have benefited from liberal use of the various versions of themselves (Emma, Bishop, and Domino in particular) others have come out not so well (Rogue, Storm and especially Gambit and Cyke). I don't believe they should adhere strictly to the 616 universe, they should narrow it down a bit, otherwise things may get too convoluted (not a big fan of the use of the Ultimate and movieverse personally). The whole Wolverine/Mystique Weapon X backstory was weird to say the least...

I know that Dread and Panthro are big Cyke fans, but as a Gambit fan, I am also in the same ship as you guys...They made him remarkably unsympathetic in season 1, which is out of character of every comic book version of him (and movie version too!). I don't really get the general Marvel dislike of the guy, and I never understood why in Evo and WXM they need to make him a villain (and a sociopath at that!)...Like they don't have enough already! I understand they wanted the "dubious motive" X Man in this show to be Emma, but it would have made him more interesting (and more faithful to his character) to have him as a more conflicted villain-putting him maybe back with the Marauders and feeling obligated to Sinister because he helped Gambit gain control of his powers. Gambit's sense of honor holds him to fullfill his end of the bargain to Essex. That would have been far better use of his character than what they came up with in this season.

I really liked Angel in this show, and it's a pity that he wasn't in it long enough before he was changed into Archangel. "Guardian Angel" has to be my favorite episode, and I wish his background/character could have been developed further. I never paid much attention to him in the comics, but I'm becoming a fan due to this show.

So the chances of Frost being resurrected as happened in the comics seems very, very slim to me, even if I'd love to be proven wrong.

Don't you know Marvel's mantra-"No one stays dead in the Marvelverse!" They couldn't even keep Morph dead in the 90's series! I have a feeling the White Queen will reappear at some point.

 

[Zant]

The whole cyclops thing is a matter of opinion not everyone who watches the show thinks he is as unsympathetic as people on this board say,some people don't care about how he was portrayed on the show ,while some just don't mind ,like me. .I really don't see the big deal, his portrayal has not affected my enjoyment of the show

 

[nikbackm]

Tell that to Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, and Ollie Queen.

Well, sure, given enough time most comic characters seem to return from the dead. But this show is not a never-ending comic book series.

I doubt for example that Barry Allen would have had time enough to return if he had died in the first season. But you never know, if the show lasts 5-7 seasons or more, then perhaps.

 

[Dread]

I'm pretty certain that this sub-plot will not re-appear in season two, since as you say, there's really no good way for the writers to handle it. Not if they want to keep the image of boy-scout Cyclops, which it seems they will, appearances in season one to the contrary.

Most of the writers and producers also seem to prefer the "classic" X-Men from what I have read in the interviews on this board, especially now if Craig Kyle will not be involved in the next season.

It's not as if there will be a lack of other characters and plots competing for screen time with a AoA remake coming up and a lot of under-utilized X-Men from the first season still as well.

So the chances of Frost being resurrected as happened in the comics seems very, very slim to me, even if I'd love to be proven wrong. The main difference between her death here and in the comics is that there her "death" happened just in the middle of an ongoing storyline, but here it rather served as the ending of it, as a "redemption equals death" even, those are always harder to get back from as far as I've seen.

You raise some good points, in particular about how the show's writers and producers may prefer some "old school" X-Men conventions. That said, by the time Scott and Emma Frost were a real item in the comics, X-MEN EVOLUTION was already over. Jean Grey at Marvel, to their credit, has actually been dead since 2003 and beyond some odd cameo style bits in PHOENIX ENDSONG and whatnot (not including Hope in CABLE; long story), she has actually stayed dead for six years. And Scott's been with Frost in that time. I imagine Marvel as a company may be interested in Frost getting more recognition with the "mainstream" fan/kid who watches TV. I mean, even FOX had Frost show up alongside (young) Cyclops in "X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE".

Craig Kyle, according to rumor, is being shifted into the live action film department, but by the time those rumors started coming, I imagine he had already done some degree of editing/production work on scripts and episodes for W&TXM season 2; production on season 2 has been going on for about 13 months now after all. I imagine voice recording has been done or in the works by now for many episodes and everyone is basically waiting for finished animation overseas, which will have to be edited and whatnot. The wait for finished animation alone can take nearly a year. Kyle, at least per his commentary on HULK VS., seems to personally prefer "darker natured" female characters and is on record claiming that he finds Frost "way, WAY more interesting" than Jean, at least in terms of dating Cyclops. Plus, the production crew like their voice actors and actresses and whatnot, and I doubt Kari Wahlgren will be getting a break for TOO long.

My odds of Frost being resurrected somehow in Season 2 are still at about 50/50, and that's being modest.

The writers have an opportunity to try to make Jean Grey into an actual character in this show (rather than a goal), but Frost has that invested Season 1 development. I'd be more surprised if Frost stayed dead.

Plus, if the writers just stick with Jean/Scott as the happy lovey dovey couple...to be honest, that would be a bit boring. The 1990's show sort of showed that (although upon a recent re-watch, I admit there was a lot of drama in the Phoenix episodes, but they were done by Season 3, and after that...), and even EVOLUTION mixed things up by having buckets of romantic tension between Cyclops and Rogue for damn near 3 seasons. There would be no reason for Wolverine to not be leader if all Cyclops needs is Jean telling him what to do (which is what "Breakdown" made clear to me; Cyclops is awesome so long as Jean is in the corner, telling him every move to do step by step). SOMETHING has to happen in Season 2 in this regard.

Good question. Here's another one - what's the point of putting Cyclops in 2nd or 3rd place for focus when all that focus does is make him an unsympathetic jerk? Maybe it's me, but I find it hard to root for a character just because he "isn't boring". The Joker isn't boring, but you don't root for him. Mr. Sinister isn't boring, but you don't root for him either.

Another good point; there is a difference between being "not boring" and being sympathetic. Eddie Brock in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN was awesome, but he quickly wore out his sympathy card, which was deliberate. Heck, by Season 2 he reveled in being an insane creep.

I'll concede there were hints of Cyclops being sympathetic throughout his episodes. You could argue given his life, where pretty much the only two people he ever loved in his life leave him physically or, in Xavier's case, emotionally, that is a perfectly good reason to be angry, resentful, and bitter. In the comics Xavier has played the "I took you in, you unspeakable cur!" card with Scott a few times to try to get his way, and some comics even painted Xavier himself as resentful that his "favorite" pupils actually wanted to have a life and get married while he devoted himself entirely to the cause. In "Breakdown", at least at the start, Cyclops is willing to leave the X-Men because he realizes his emotional issues are hurting them as a unit; it is Frost who convinces him to stay.

And to be fair, aside for wanting Cyclops to appear in missions and not screw them up, none of the other X-Men gave a spit about his turmoil. If anything they were shocked that he remained so hung up on Jean for so long. Wolverine's sympathy for Scott's situation was likely LESS than how far he could throw him. Frost was the only one who seemed to care, and she was a mole.

The problem though was some of these moments were outweighed by more selfish, tantrum moments. There's a moment in the three part finale where Iceman gives Cyclops a look of disgust in the Blackbird after it's been revealed that he freed Frost and screwed things up, and considering Bobby was a founder like he was, I can easily imagine what Bobby was thinking.

This is why I like this Kitty-she reminds more of Whedon's Astonishing Kitty, who is far more assertive and not the wallflower "OMG!" type that she is sometimes portrayed in the comics. Not that I disliked Evo Kitty (I really liked her too, when they toned down her Vally-ishness), but I like this one better. Maybe its a girl thing...

I don't know; maybe it was the some of the vocal tones the voice actress took, perhaps trying to sound TOO spunky. I don't know. For me there is a fine line between spunky and annoying; a clear example of annoying is Batgirl from THE BATMAN's third season.

The scene that probably stuck with me was Bobby trying to ask her out and Kitty busting his chops about it. This is why only jerks have the confidence to talk to you, girls. Because the awkward fellas get ragged on.

Kitty at least was the ONLY person on the X-Men who was with the team before "the explosion" who would get on Logan's case whenever he made a mistake; it was just in a jokey, not serious way.

Really, I didn't see her like this at all! You sure you are not confusing her with Emma?

If anything, W&TXM made Frost more sympathetic than the comics did. In the comics she was a cackling villain for a good 15 years before the 90's came and they wanted to make her "good" for Generation X. In this show she had none of that; she was only with the Hellfire Club as per their original cause, and was immediately against them when they became wickedly ambitious. She also benefited from Cyclops' sympathy issues; she was the one who chose to love and defend a clearly unsympathetic, vastly flawed hero. It was out of guilt, true, but also something more, and Cyclops never once returned her affections. He only sought to use her to find Jean, as a means to an end, without considering her emotions; how Xavier of him.

Even when she blows up and Cyclops sort of watches the diamond particles flutter around after, well, he's with Jean, and it's forgotten a scene later.

Amen! Glad to see the Elf get some love! He is a great character, and his "romance" with Wanda was done very well, as well as the use of his powers.

Yeah. Now THERE is a character who had a tragic past of his own and wasn't a mopey, selfish angster about it like Cyclops was.

True, but it also can be its biggest detractor. While many characters have benefited from liberal use of the various versions of themselves (Emma, Bishop, and Domino in particular) others have come out not so well (Rogue, Storm and especially Gambit and Cyke). I don't believe they should adhere strictly to the 616 universe, they should narrow it down a bit, otherwise things may get too convoluted (not a big fan of the use of the Ultimate and movieverse personally). The whole Wolverine/Mystique Weapon X backstory was weird to say the least...

In the comics they met in the past, but...c'mon, it's Wolverine. It has become a cliche to the point of parody that he has met everyone and done everything in the past, whether he remembers it or not. Mystique, Captain America, God himself, you name it. This show took that throwaway detail between them and made it more, and to be fair I think it was an awkward idea, executed well. In comparison to many of the first season's other ideas, which often were great but not always executed as well as they could have. I am still a bit iffy about it. Won't that make things awkward whenever they do the whole Rogue/Nightcrawler/Mystique family ties stuff? That made for great dramatic fodder in EVOLUTION; in some ways one of the most shocking moments I've seen on American animated TV this century was Rogue pushing that statue of Mystique off the cliff at the start of Season 3.

That is assuming, of course, that this show does the Rogue/Nightcrawler/Mystique stuff. To be fair, considering the crew's fondness for Nightcrawler, I can't see why not. Wolverine would likely intrude on that soap drama more than in prior animated incarnations, but, to be fair, he usually did by sheer appearance anyway. The 90's series by the end looked for any excuse to have Wolverine on the episode's cast list even if it made no tactical sense for him to be there.

I know that Dread and Panthro are big Cyke fans, but as a Gambit fan, I am also in the same ship as you guys...They made him remarkably unsympathetic in season 1, which is out of character of every comic book version of him (and movie version too!). I don't really get the general Marvel dislike of the guy, and I never understood why in Evo and WXM they need to make him a villain (and a sociopath at that!)...Like they don't have enough already! I understand they wanted the "dubious motive" X Man in this show to be Emma, but it would have made him more interesting (and more faithful to his character) to have him as a more conflicted villain-putting him maybe back with the Marauders and feeling obligated to Sinister because he helped Gambit gain control of his powers. Gambit's sense of honor holds him to fullfill his end of the bargain to Essex. That would have been far better use of his character than what they came up with in this season.

In Gambit's defense, in "ACES AND EIGHTS", he gained some sympathy from me trying to genuinely warn Lorna that he was a ne'er do well and not worth genuinely crushing on as she seemed to be doing. That's more than Cyclops has ever done for any woman he has been passive-aggressively obsessing over. He was an opportunistic creep at times this season, but Gambit himself was aware of what he was doing, and didn't try to make things personal if he could avoid it. I don't think Cyclops is aware of the consequences of any decision he has ever made, at least in the first season.

But I can relate to your position; I'm a Colossus fan, and there're LESS of us than there are Gambit fans. I think the writers of Evolution and this show see untapped potential in the idea of Gambit being a "wild card", pardon the pun, acting as an independent. It certainly is more interesting for some episodes than Gambit just hopping out of the Blackbird with a card and a quip as he did too often in the 90's show (he was easily the least fleshed character of that show, but he was also the newest at the time; even Jubilee pre-dated him by several years in the comics). Still, I'd argue Gambit owes a lot of his mainstream recognition and fame to that 90's cartoon more than the comics to a degree. In that show, while his past as a thief was established and his romantic pursuit of Rogue at times bordered on annoying, he came off as a someone who had that rough-and-tumble past who decided to better himself through the X-Men and he didn't regret his decision. He returns to the bayou in Season 2 to save his brother but vows that era of his life is finished. Season 2 even climaxes with Gambit telling Rogue he loves her and them sharing an actual kiss, since Mr. Sinister has negated their powers. The only shame of that is after that, Gambit really has no development as a character. He just appears, and is missing in a great many episodes (unlike Rogue, who usually showed up as often as Wolverine). I swear there were two episodes where Gambit has no lines but a grunt, and considering how talky that show usually was, that's rare.

It also is worth noting that considering Wolverine has a mysterious past of his own and is prone to stalking off to settle scores personally, he has absolutely zero sympathy for "Cajun" in Season 1 when Bishop tags him as the historical traitor, and Gambit soon stalks off to settle that score. I often found it funny that Logan was friends with the 13 year old girl in that show, because he often acted like one ("I go...where I WANNA go!" as a catch phrase comes to mind). But comparing that show to this is apples and oranges I guess.

I can understand why Johnson, Kyle and company write Gambit as they do, enjoying that "wild card" quality, but I can also understand why fans of him are long overdue with wanting him on the X-Men proper. Since 1998, multi media versions of Gambit have done nothing but tease them in a way. Historically Colossus has usually suffered the same fate, just usually appeared less often than Gambit. But Season 2 of W&TXM at least seems to want to change that, so there could be hope for Remy too.

Don't you know Marvel's mantra-"No one stays dead in the Marvelverse!" They couldn't even keep Morph dead in the 90's series! I have a feeling the White Queen will reappear at some point.

Me too. Good point about Morph, since Mr. Sinister was behind that too. He's an opportunistic genetic vulture.

The whole cyclops thing is a matter of opinion not everyone who watches the show thinks he is as unsympathetic as people on this board say,some people don't care about how he was portrayed on the show ,while some just don't mind ,like me. .I really don't see the big deal, his portrayal has not affected my enjoyment of the show

Fair enough. It could probably be argued that a majority of fans of the show probably feel that way. I personally think they overplayed the "flawed" card for Cyclops in Season 1 but that's just opinion, as you say. If anything, it got Scott talked about, when in some shows he was just the guy who pointed and shot a red laser beam. It was just a bit jarring for me considering this is very much the same writing and production crew behind X-MEN EVOLUTION, a show that if anything successfully made Cyclops a rootable, interesting, sympathetic and even at times fun character for a modern TV audience. I should know, because it worked on me; before 2000 I could barely stand Cyclops. I was as hardcore a Wolverine fanboy as one could be in the 90's and well into 2001-2002 even. I wasn't expecting that same crew to write Cyclops as...flawed as they did this season. There is a part of me that thinks this crew felt handcuffed at times by Kid's WB all those years ago and this show is kind of like their X-Men sugar high, where they can do and use pretty much anyone they want. I just though at times in this season some of that zeal went overboard and effected their execution. Still, that's not totally uncommon for first seasons, and I am interested in seeing how they improve on things for Season 2. Especially if, as rumors seem to suggest, Greg Johnson may end up running the show more than Kyle if he really moves onto movies. At least according to IMDB, Johnson had one more writing credit than Kyle in Season 1.

I still think if "Hindsight" was 4 episodes instead of 3, if that first episode was more about showing the X-Men under their "ideal" status quo to show where everyone was starting off from before the explosion changed everything and split the team for a year...I think a lot of things would have worked better narrative wise. Bypassing that foundation overall was a mistake. But, one could argue, it is easy to see that with hindsight.

 

[TheVileOne]

Why Emma Frost will come back:

See Mystique's fate in X-men: Evolution.

 

[EvilClareToo]

Thanks Dread for your feedback!

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the Kitty thing. Emma, in spite of falling for a tremdendously flawed Cyclops, was far crueler to other X Men than Kitty was (the scenes with Forge spring to mind). Maybe Kitty reminds you of someone you disliked, which is understandable. I agree, though, this is the best version I have come across of Emma. I can't really stand her in the comics, but her I actually liked so much that she became my favorite female character in this series-who woulda thunk it?

I agree on all of your Gambit points-it really annoyed me that in the 90's series he was all but phazed out by season 4. I'm quite interested to see what they will do with the character in season 2-I am hoping for a redemption storyline for him.

I am also looking forward to Colossus getting some love here. I agree that he has gotten the short end of the stick in animation. I think the X Men right now need someone who doesn't have a dark past or angst and just be a solid, dependable good guy on the team to balance off members like Wolverine and Rogue.

And Jean...any ideas on how she will be characterized in this series in season 2? In the 90's series she was probably the most boring member of the team, and in Evo she really blossomed into a rather cool (if also a rather still goody-goody) character. And they dumped the whole Logan/Jean/Scott triangle. I have a sinking feeling this will brought into season 2 (augh!!!!!) How many woman have to fall for Logan in this series?????

 

[zerowolf]

[FONT=&quot]Just read the interview, the guy sound like he likes Cyclops, but the series show otherwise[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Personally, I think if they wanted to show Cyke in different light, they could have made it more like Astonishing/Messiah Complex 's Cyke . In doing so, also changing the status quo of the X-Men to the general public and making it more like the one in the comic now.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It’s never been shown in any other media except in the comic and gives a fresh take on the characters with new stories to be told instead of the same old stories and character dynamics[/FONT]

 

[Mike059jig]

Josh Fine gets Cyclops really good, Cyclops was vindicated at the end when Jean was alive at the end. The fact that every other X-men didn't believe him made the revelation so much better. I hope that season 2 they execute the plots much better, the first season everything was so sloppy.

 

[Dread]

Why Emma Frost will come back:

See Mystique's fate in X-men: Evolution.

True. Although to be technical, we had to wait about a season to find out that she was alive, at the end of Season 4. Granted, in terms of episode count, it was within the second set of 26 episodes for the show. Seasons 1 and 3 were 13 episodes; season 2 was 18 episodes, and season 4 was 9 episodes. Crazy Kid's WB.

But, good point about past work. I'm definitely in the "Frost will be back" camp, I'm just hoping it's executed well without dumping more negative baggage on Cyclops.

Thanks Dread for your feedback!

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the Kitty thing. Emma, in spite of falling for a tremdendously flawed Cyclops, was far crueler to other X Men than Kitty was (the scenes with Forge spring to mind). Maybe Kitty reminds you of someone you disliked, which is understandable. I agree, though, this is the best version I have come across of Emma. I can't really stand her in the comics, but her I actually liked so much that she became my favorite female character in this series-who woulda thunk it?

No problem!

I mean I don't think Kitty was unsympathetic or anything, and she had quite a few of my favorite scenes. Her Danger Room meeting with Wolverine or the fight against the Sentinel robot in the Mansion come to mind. I just thought she didn't come off as "sweet" as the Valley Girl Evo version that a lot of people (but me) disliked. I didn't mind it because Kitty in the 80's had all sorts of annoying, time-sensitive details to her, such as rollar skates and some terribly atrocious senses of style as "Sprite" or "Ariel". So for me, her sounding like a Valley Girl considering she would have grown up in the 90's wasn't totally unreasonable. Kitty's fine enough in W&TXM, but I still prefer the Evo version, so far. I'll concede being younger and more impressionable at 18 than I am at 27. And that Evo Kitty was the first put to animation since "PRYDE OF THE X-MEN" in 1989, so we took what we could get. The 90's cartoon didn't even give Kitty a cameo; even Colossus and Nightcrawler showed up twice; even Iceman showed up once.

Yeah, W&TXM seemed to work double time to make Frost interesting and to a degree sympathetic due to her connection to Cyclops. The irony is the things that I felt worked against him, worked for her. The fact that he was SO flawed, so selfish and so inconsiderate of the feelings of others, yet she STILL obviously was falling in love with him, made her all the more tragic. She even died for him. Yes, it was her actions for the Club that took Jean from him and caused all that turmoil, so a bit of it was guilt for the victim of her crime, basically. But it wasn't ONLY that. I often criticized the first season for being crude in terms of characterization sometimes, but this wasn't one of those areas. Freed from being as much of a straight-on villain as she was in the comics (it took me a long, LONG time to wrap my head around the fact that Frost wasn't evil anymore in the comics, like almost a decade), Frost came off as quite likable for me, even when she was callous or had an arrogant attitude. But that was what made her fun; she contrasted with Jean. She wouldn't have begged Cyclops to stop zapping Logan in the back, or made Logan promise not to fight back; I could imagine her wanting Cyclops to assert himself over Logan quite a lot. Frost was the only member of the team who didn't drink "Logan's Kool-Aid" and would call him on tactical errors. It was still in a wise-crack manner, but her delivery of it was more cold than when Kitty would bug him about it. She was the only one of them clearly not impressed with Wolverine, besides Rogue (who got over her issues with Logan by midway through, even if she doesn't outright say so until the finale).

I agree on all of your Gambit points-it really annoyed me that in the 90's series he was all but phazed out by season 4. I'm quite interested to see what they will do with the character in season 2-I am hoping for a redemption storyline for him.

I bet it annoyed you more when they swapped his voice actor in Season 5 of the 90's show. Chris Potter to this day is probably the best VA for Gambit the character has ever had, and he was also the first. Tony Daniels just did a bad impersonation of Potter's performance in the last season and it was painful to listen to. Alessandro Juliani's Gambit from Evolution wasn't bad, but I usually find Phil LaMarr amazingly miscast as him so far on W&TXM. He's a good VA and he'll get better at the role with experience, but he still doesn't quite gell for me in the part.

As for redemption, it is possible. It could be interesting if Season 2 homaged the comics in a way in which Gambit befriends Storm and she helps vouch for him to join the team, which is what happened in the comics (although without the whole "Storm as a kid" angle). While he is always romantically linked with Rogue, it wouldn't hurt for him to befriend someone besides her. Again, I thought "Aces and Eights" added in a quality that Gambit had no delusions about who he was or the nature of his work, which meant if he wanted, he could change.

To be honest I have usually never liked Gambit, but if he's written well, why not? I mean, he's not Cable. Lord, I can't stand Cable.

I am also looking forward to Colossus getting some love here. I agree that he has gotten the short end of the stick in animation. I think the X Men right now need someone who doesn't have a dark past or angst and just be a solid, dependable good guy on the team to balance off members like Wolverine and Rogue.

At the SDCC, which TheVileOne reported from for Toonzone, the show's writers/producers confirmed that Colossus would return in Season 2; he would at least have one focus episode towards the start and then who knows. Their answer was that they intended to bring him back into Season 1 but never had enough time to do it properly, so they chose to wait. Thankfully, they were renewed.

On the one hand, that answer was somewhat annoying if only because I have been hearing it since Evolution Season 3 when they kept promising to do a focus episode for the character but always claiming they had no time, yet wasting entire episodes on one-shot enemies who served no purpose, like Legion, by Season 4. W&TXM at the very least had a tighter serial storyline so there was less spare room.

On the other hand, though, Colossus appeared 8 times in Evolution (as in 8 episodes out of 52), yet he accomplished almost nothing. He lost every fight he was in (and usually showed a pathetic performance at that), and beyond some teases or details, was not very well fleshed. If given a choice between having him in many episodes where he does nothing, or only having him in 1-2 episodes like the 90's show but they're always good episodes that flesh him well, I decided I preferred the latter. Therefore, the philosophy behind keeping him out of Season 1 W&TXM (beyond his cameo in the pilot) made sense in the long term. He could have been there and been nothing but background noise like Storm was a lot, or we can wait long enough so we can take a breath in the story and do it right.

You also have a point as to how to write him. Many writers, in the comics and the cartoons, are at a loss as to how to write him now that the Cold War is "over" (even if, to be fair, Russia is a "frenemy" at best to America these days) and simply having a "good Russian" isn't enough. My take was that he's not far off from Superman, only with fewer powers. He got his good nature from old fashioned farm life. He was often the naive, innocent and good natured X-Man, almost to a fault. His sensitivity meant he got emotional when he was riled. Colossus was usually the one who wasn't in the morally gray territory and usually always leaned for what was "right". I say usually because there was of course his Proteus moment when he realizes Proteus is too evil and dangerous to live, and sacrifices his personal code to waste him. I honestly don't think he is as hard to write as some writers, even Joss Whedon, claim. I just think as a society, we have taken to siding more with anti-heroes than more straight up heroes.

I just hope he isn't a moper and actually can talk about something else besides his family in W&TXM Season 2. In the comics, at least until the 21st century, he was fodder for no end of romantic tension with quite a few characters; mostly Kitty, but was making out with Rogue by the end of the 90's. But I do agree that on a team which has Wolverine as the leader and Cyclops usually being flawed, Colossus could contrast them well.

And Jean...any ideas on how she will be characterized in this series in season 2? In the 90's series she was probably the most boring member of the team, and in Evo she really blossomed into a rather cool (if also a rather still goody-goody) character. And they dumped the whole Logan/Jean/Scott triangle. I have a sinking feeling this will brought into season 2 (augh!!!!!) How many woman have to fall for Logan in this series?????

The series IS named after Wolverine first and foremost; the writers themselves have fallen for Wolverine. Why wouldn't more than one or two female characters? To be fair, no X-Men cartoon has really had Logan in a lasting relationship with a woman. The 90's show had that triangle with Jean, which Logan brought to near psychotic levels (he's seriously slaughtering robotic versions of Cyclops at her wedding rather than wishing her well and attending; that alone says volumes), but beyond Logan always running into ex-girlfriends who wanted to kill him (Deathstrike & Silver Fox), he never really was in any sort of relationship. EVOLUTION had none of that tension at all with Logan; he was basically just the biker teacher. I suppose there was SOME meager hints at romantic tension between him and Ororo in that show, but you really have to look and twist for them. Personally I always liked the Mariko stuff so I wouldn't mind if Logan actually had to deal with some form of girlfriend in a second season. Just to be different.

Even JUSTICE LEAGUE/UNLIMITED for quite a while flirted with Batman getting it on with Wonder Woman.

TheVileOne wants Logan to get with Domino more than Mystique, which mirrors whatever is happening in X-FORCE I hear. At least Rogue would probably approve of that one. Domino was the only one of the B-Hood who wasn't a complete sociopath.

As for Jean, she is a hard character to write, and sometimes I wonder how well she was defined in the comics. In the 60's stuff I always saw her as Sue Storm Lite, as she had similar powers to a degree as well as a similar drama to Sue ("Oh, my, I love the leader, but how do I show it without compromising our team?"). Then the X-Men title goes on hiatus for 5 years and then when Claremont brings Jean back, he immediately attaches the Phoenix to her, which I think is a large distraction. It's something that happens to her, not really a part of her. I suppose the idea was to make her like a female version of the Hulk, a docile good natured heroine who also had a vengeful demi-god side, but I don't think it was ever handled as well. A Flaming Bird themed temper tantrum is not the same as a personality.

What Evolution did is they made her more assertive in general, I thought. While Jean was still a "good girl", she was more of a big woman on campus; she was a soccer player (and a good one), and she flirted with the football players. Some viewers saw her as like Rachael from "FRIENDS" on that show; she usually only saw romantic interest in Cyclops when some other character, such as Kitty, Taryn, or Rogue, did. Most female viewers sided with Rogue and I've seen some fansites that claim Jean deliberately played on people's emotions in that show. I didn't see that. I saw it probably as it was intended; she and Scott had been "friends" so long that making that leap from friend to lover was a difficult one for both of them, but probably harder for her. It was only when seeing Scott through the eyes of girls who clearly did have the hots for him, and of course through various X-Men tragedies/adventures, that she came around.

I suppose it is ironic that I lament Colossus being sidelined because he is a "good guy" in a franchise that worships anti-heroes, yet I suppose Jean Grey is similar. Still, Colossus paints, he does occasionally have a temper, and many jokes can be had at his awkwardness with custom or whatnot. Jean doesn't have those details, she just has the Phoenix, which consumes the rest of her in a way. Season 2 will have to try to make Jean Grey a character, because she didn't come off beyond a cipher in Season 1. She was missing for much of the show, and for half the finale she has amnesia or is unconscious/screaming. Most of what we know of her is from Cyclops' perspective, and to be honest I never saw why he was so obsessively in love with her beyond the fact she was the only one who had reached out to him besides Xavier (or Frost, who he ignored). If anything "Breakdown" painted them a bit as co-dependent. Cyclops needed Jean to tell him what to do and stroke his fragile ego, and Jean needed Cyclops to make her seem more assertive and extroverted by comparison.

By 2010 it will have been over ten years since we saw a "Logan/Scott/Jean" triangle on a cartoon, so some writers could feel it is due. For every fan who is sick of it, there is another who sees it as part of the mythos. While many Jean fans don't want to see her paired with Logan, it would make the whole Frost thing work better. If after all his emotional torment over losing Jean, Cyclops watches her cosy up to Logan more (even if Logan himself doesn't feel the same way), that could give him clear motive to pine for Frost without seeing ungrateful. I just kind of doubt the writers would do that because that would come close to making Logan, deliberately or not, do something that is harmful to a friend, and W&TXM has usually made him too selfless to do that. He calls himself "a monster", but he never is; he is at worst a victim of madmen who want to control him. Cyclops, who blasts through city streets on thin leads, is more of a "monster".

The "Age of Apocalypse" tease from the Season 1 finale shows Cyclops has sided with Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse in the new future of "twenty years from now". In the AOA comics, Cyclops sided with Sinister & Apocalypse but sought to undermine them from within (unlike Havok, who was blindly loyal). Jean was also with "Weapon X/Wolverine" in that storyline. There is a part of me that thinks this show's staff want to genuinely have a Wolverine vs. Cyclops fight, and if they do, Logan has to be the one who's "right". It's like Robin on TEEN TITANS or Batman in JLU; the show itself bends over backwards to make a certain star right. Even when Robin was smashing stuff on his bike or threatening to pummel innocent civilians to find Slade, he was never "wrong".

The Apocalypse story brought out the best from EVOLUTION, and that was a show on Kid's WB, which was such an annoying network that even Bruce Timm fled it by 2000-2001. Without having to worry about it for W&TXM's Apocalypse story, I am interested and excited about what will come forth. If it brings out the best in this show too, that'd be awesome.

There is perhaps a way to make the whole Jean thing work. One thing cartoons don't do well is a transitional relationship. By that I mean most cartoons establish a "true love" between two characters and just set about delaying that or establishing that. As an example; while Peter Parker dates or is romantically interested in many girls in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, his "true love" in that show is clearly Gwen Stacy. Much as Gwen may go to a dance with Eddie Brock or date Harry Osborn, her true love is Peter. A lot of the drama of the show is how circumstances keep them apart (even when Gwen makes it very clear at the end of Season 1).

While this works in a soap opera style drama, it isn't realistic. What is realistic is that people enter relationships, said relationship runs it's course and they both move on or have to move on to a degree to someone else for a relationship, using that past experience to (hopefully) improve the selection, or at least define likes and wants. Jean and Scott were each other's first loves, but few people stay with their first lover forever. It could be written as both of them being reunited, but both have changed due to what happened in Season 1; Jean learned she has the potential to become a goddess who doesn't need to have Cyclops (over)protect her, while Cyclops at least knows that there are other women out there who might like him, and, gasp, not even be the least bit tempted by Logan.

Although I am not sure how many lines of, "Ugh...it's...too...heavy!" I can take from Jean. In cartoons, she is usually always groaning about something being too heavy or too strong for her telapathy and passing out. In the 90's show you could have made a drinking game around it.

[FONT=&quot]Just read the interview, the guy sound like he likes Cyclops, but the series show otherwise[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Personally, I think if they wanted to show Cyke in different light, they could have made it more like Astonishing/Messiah Complex 's Cyke . In doing so, also changing the status quo of the X-Men to the general public and making it more like the one in the comic now.
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[FONT=&quot]It’s never been shown in any other media except in the comic and gives a fresh take on the characters with new stories to be told instead of the same old stories and character dynamics[/FONT]

What do you mean? In Astonishing X-Men, Joss Whedon did the whole "breaking you down to build you up" angle to Cyclops to try to have him gain self-control; the problem is that when Cyclops had "control", he wasn't written like Cyclops; he was written like Capt. Mal from FIREFLY, right down to Cassaday copying some screen shot poses panel for panel. Since when does Cyclops make pithy snarky comments while shooting illusions with a handgun? It was a bit awkward.

I haven't read a lot of Messiah Complex, but I thought that since then Cyclops has become TOO hard; he used to get down on Logan about killing people or whatnot. Now he is telling X-FORCE who to kill in the cradle regardless that some of them are kids (like Elixir). While the X-Men have never been as against killing as, say, the Justice League, I though since Complex Cyclops has shifted too much to that extreme. The fact that during SECRET INVASION, nearly every single fan suspected Cyclops was the token Skrull mole (he wasn't) should have spoken volumes. While Cyclops as a character has been revived since the Morrison run sort of "re-established" him, I think he could still be an efficient character without being ruthless.

Besides, this is WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN; I doubt Logan is losing his leadership status. I am curious how the team dynamic is handled if Cyclops is no longer "shattered" yet also isn't the leader.

 

[Dread]

Josh Fine gets Cyclops really good, Cyclops was vindicated at the end when Jean was alive at the end. The fact that every other X-men didn't believe him made the revelation so much better. I hope that season 2 they execute the plots much better, the first season everything was so sloppy.

Josh Fine gets Cyclops good, but I am not sure the first season executed a lot of those feelings well.

I don't think the Jean thing was ever executed in the series as "Cyclops being right". I think mostly because he never found her, nor did he save her when it counted; Frost did. To me it came off as Frost trying to undo her crime and settle her debt to the X-Men more than Cyclops really accomplishing anything. If anything, Cyclops endangered Jean even more by alerting Mr. Sinister to the fact that she was alive. While Wolverine could stalk off and pick fights with, say, Weapon X, it never came back to haunt anyone the way Cyclops' loner jaunts did. Jean herself saved the X-Men from Archangel when it counted. That was my major problem with the end of Season 1; while many characters, including Logan, had to step up from the pilot, Cyclops was almost a pedestrian in his own story in comparison to Frost, who was in the driver's seat. In "Breakdown", Jean Grey has to lead Cyclops by the hand and tell him step by step how to blast Magneto in the flashback, and Frost basically solves Cyclops' whole dilemma for him. He never had to learn how to exist without Jean. He never had to put aside his own emotional angst. Frost was the one who put him through it, and she was the one who took it away. It was more her redemption than his.

Even Cyclops' line to Logan about trusting Frost isn't really vindicated at the end. Logan doesn't decide to trust in Frost because he trusts what Cyclops told him. He decides after being hinted at it by Future Xavier, who was told to do so by Future Logan. Cyclops is just there.

Which at least gives him something to do in Season 2, as it were.

 

[Panthro]

^^No argument here.

Say Dread, out of curiosity, what aspects of Colossus make him an endearing character to you?

 

[YoungE808]

There's a lot to read here so....*subscribes*

 

[Sawyer]

Oh, the first season is already over? Any chance of a DVD- a real DVD- anytime soon?

 

[Dread]

^^No argument here.

Say Dread, out of curiosity, what aspects of Colossus make him an endearing character to you?

The best place to start is the beginning. As a kid it was the visual and the fact that he was "the strong guy" of the X-Men. Dave Cockrum's design is an iconic one and many artists have worked hard to duplicate it. Even with the simple animation of the 90's series, he came off distinct. Visuals can be important to hook someone in for a moment; Colossus was a guy who turned to metal with a lot of shiney stuff and punches stuff down. I was a simple kid sometimes.

Beyond that, Colossus was a character who I thought worked very well in the team dynamic. Almost to a fault; he probably comes off as boring or generic in a series when he was the star. I wouldn't want to see a COLOSSUS ongoing series and some of his rare mini's weren't always so hot. But he is fine as the star of an arc or a one-shot tale, but usually as being among the team and contrasting with some, or working with others. In the Claremont/Cockrum/Bryne era, Colossus in some ways represented innocence in a way. He left his home to be a hero for greater causes, a point his parents kind of made for him (he was hesitant to leave). While the other X-Men were "new" at the time, Wolverine was the cynical violent rebel, Nightcrawler often the confident ex-circus performer, and Banshee had years of black ops experience. Storm was also a bit naive to things at the time, which is perhaps why the two initially bonded (at one point Storm calls him "the brother I never had"), but she was also formerly worshiped as a goddess. He had strong, heroic ideals and often was simple in how he displayed them. But he usually defended his friends when he had to, and some of those moments when he "stepped up" and was willing to kill were usually defining for me. I mentioned the Proteus one, but the moment when he snaps Riptide's neck during the MORLOCK MASSACRE in the 80's was cool. Considering his status as one of the most "innocent" of the new X-Men, it is probably no accident that Kitty Pryde, who took that role after she debuted in 1980, was drawn to him. She was just spunkier, while at heart he was a Russian farm-boy.

But what I also liked was that unlike the Thing, who was an "average mug" in many ways, Piotr was sensitive and artistic, which at the time seemed unique for a hulking tanker. He was also introverted, but in a different way than Cyclops was. Granted, you have to note that I liked Colossus before I ever learned to like Cyclops.

I guess I also liked that, at least for a majority of his history, he was reliable as the big strong good guy on the X-Men team. He wasn't an anti-hero. He wasn't against killing or being an angry smasher type, but he only did so when he had to. As time went on, Colossus suffered no end of tragedies. His sister was corrupted by demons, his family killed by the KGB, and his older brother becoming an energy-manipulating maniac. The death of his sister caused him to join Magneto's Acolytes, which is really his only foray into being an "anti-hero", but even that didn't last too long by comic standards; a few years. He might have been dead longer than he was an Acolyte. Even as an Acolyte, he was hardly the zealot that some of them were, like Exodus at the time. But by and large, despite his endless moping (and he has moped in the comics for a damn decade if not longer), he still plugs away and wants to be a hero. Even after losing Kitty, yet another tragedy. I mean, damn. The sheer amount of dead loved ones that Colossus has to live through are almost as many as Wolverine. Yet he's rarely cynical, even if he does brood.

In many ways he is similar to Superman, only he isn't an alien and he isn't as powerful, and he got his morals from a non-American family, which isn't as original now as it once was, but I don't know. It still is notable. Especially as Mark Millar imagined a Russian Soviet Era Superman as being a hero of the Commies in RED SON that Piotr avoided.

I also probably related to the idea that despite Colossus doing the best he could a lot, he usually wasn't the big, popular guy. He also usually didn't beat many major menaces for ages of time. Trying to think of defining Colossus power moments in the comics after the 80's gets rough. I mean the Thing could always cling to giving the Hulk a good fight, and the Hulk can beat everyone, but Colossus? Not so often. He usually is the most underwhelming of Marvel's tankers, and even though I hate that, it adds to the underdog status. Even Wolverine is allowed to put in better showings against enemies who clearly outclass him.

I just usually felt he worked well as a perennial supporting X-Man with a cool visual and he smashes stuff when he has to, or tries.

 

[Neptune]

I know that Dread and Panthro are big Cyke fans, but as a Gambit fan, I am also in the same ship as you guys...They made him remarkably unsympathetic in season 1, which is out of character of every comic book version of him (and movie version too!). I don't really get the general Marvel dislike of the guy, and I never understood why in Evo and WXM they need to make him a villain (and a sociopath at that!)...Like they don't have enough already! I understand they wanted the "dubious motive" X Man in this show to be Emma, but it would have made him more interesting (and more faithful to his character) to have him as a more conflicted villain-putting him maybe back with the Marauders and feeling obligated to Sinister because he helped Gambit gain control of his powers. Gambit's sense of honor holds him to fullfill his end of the bargain to Essex. That would have been far better use of his character than what they came up with in this season.

I am a hardcore Gambit fan and i disagree. This season they introduced pre X-men Gambit and his personality was spot on if you ask me. Let's face it, Gambit was a selfish scoundrel before he met Storm. He wasn't all bad but he was bad enough to steal, decieve and cheat for money without regard for others. And that's eactly what i like about him. He knows who he is and what he wants and makes no excuses.

I think he was great. He was sneaky, funny, charming and fun. That's a kind of Gambit i haven't seen in a long time. Of course i would like him to join the x-men eventually. But that will be even more interesting if we see him as a morally ambigious thief first. And that's exactly what we got.