What's your opinion of Lionel right now ?

[Bruce_Wayne29]

Do you think he's still the magnificent bastard with an agenda, is he a good guy, or is he only being good to win Martha's heart ?

 

[Kaboom]

i dont think hes ever cared about marthas heart, i think it was more that he wanted to "win" martha. as in steal her from johnathan just to show he could. and ill never trust lionels motives.

 

[triplet]

I think Lionel's a good guy now... Didn't Oracle prove that?

 

[Kaboom]

i dont care what happens, ill never trust someone with the last name luthor

 

[rumpuso]

I think we are in for a big reveal this season, based on something Steven DeKnight said in answer to a question about this very thing. I suspect Lionel has an agenda and it may not be very pretty to Clark.

 

[triplet]

I think we are in for a big reveal this season, based on something Steven DeKnight said in answer to a question about this very thing. I suspect Lionel has an agenda and it may not be very pretty to Clark.

What on earth did DeKnight say?

I don't have the patience to wade through 23 pages of ship bickering over on his myspace page...

 

[rumpuso]

What on earth did DeKnight say?

I don't have the patience to wade through 23 pages of ship bickering over on his myspace page...

Question posted by Melanie: If you're still checking this thread I just wondered what was happening with Lionel...after building him up for 5 seasons as this major threat, and he tortured Clark in Season 3 to find out his secret, now that he knows...is that it? Will he actually do anything with the information? Or has the Magnificent gone out of the MB?

Answer posted by DeNight: Excellent question! And I'd answer it, but the thought of that long unemployment line discourages such fool-hearted actions. But isn't that John Glover the best? Love working with him.

 

[triplet]

Hmmm... interesting.

::triplet strokes her chin thoughtfully::

I love the magnificent bastard... glad he might not be gone.

 

[Serene]

I think that Lionel's feelings for Martha are similar to Lex's feelings for Lana. They want them because both women represent an ideal that the Luthors can only dream of obtaining. But do they really love them? Not enough to become the men they'd need to be in order for these women to love them back.

Both Martha and Lana are women who will choose to give these guys a chance (inexplicable, I know), but ultimately, I think that Lionel and Lex's true natures - ruthless ambitions combined with wavering moral codes - will be revealed and neither woman will stay with the Luthor men.

 

[rumpuso]

I think that Lionel's feelings for Martha are similar to Lex's feelings for Lana. They want them because both women represent an ideal that the Luthors can only dream of obtaining. But do they really love them? Not enough to become the men they'd need to be in order for these women to love them back.

Both Martha and Lana are women who will choose to give these guys a chance (inexplicable, I know), but ultimately, I think that Lionel and Lex's true natures - ruthless ambitions combined with wavering moral codes - will be revealed and neither woman will stay with the Luthor men.

Excellent thoughts, Serene!

What makes me stumble though is Martha here. If she honestly does give Lionel a chance in the romance department, what kind of mother would that make her? She knows what went down in Memoria, how he tortured her son. She probably even knows what Lionel's involvement was with Morgan Edge and Clark in Phoenix. And, she knows what Lionel is capable of, i.e. Transference. (Attempted murder of his son, tossing Jonathan about in the kitchen). How does a mother forgive these things? For me to accept Martha in a romance with Lionel, the writers are going to have to do some very fancy writing to make me respect her choice. Lionel acting as an oracle does not forgive his past and his uncertain future with her son.

 

[TKodami]

I think that Lionel's feelings for Martha are similar to Lex's feelings for Lana. They want them because both women represent an ideal that the Luthors can only dream of obtaining. But do they really love them? Not enough to become the men they'd need to be in order for these women to love them back.

Both Martha and Lana are women who will choose to give these guys a chance (inexplicable, I know), but ultimately, I think that Lionel and Lex's true natures - ruthless ambitions combined with wavering moral codes - will be revealed and neither woman will stay with the Luthor men.

This is a great response. I like this perspective on Lionel--and I'll probably need to take your word for it, because I'm hopeless in his case. I was estatic in S4 when he started showing good tendancies, and I've been really, really hoping for Lionel to redeem himself. He has redeemed himself to an extent in S5, but there's still the lingering doubt. Just because he helped in Oracle and Vessel, you can't discount the maneuvering he did in Cyborg in order to position himself as a "trusted" figure in the Kent family.

My hope--Lionel redeems himself fully; Lex kills him in the next episode.

 

[Serene]

Excellent thoughts, Serene!

What makes me stumble though is Martha here. If she honestly does give Lionel a chance in the romance department, what kind of mother would that make her? She knows what went down in Memoria, how he tortured her son. She probably even knows what Lionel's involvement was with Morgan Edge and Clark in Phoenix. And, she knows what Lionel is capable of, i.e. Transference. (Attempted murder of his son, tossing Jonathan about in the kitchen). How does a mother forgive these things? For me to accept Martha in a romance with Lionel, the writers are going to have to do some very fancy writing to make me respect her choice. Lionel acting as an oracle does not forgive his past and his uncertain future with her son.

I agree with you, rump.. realistically, it's hard to imagine that Martha would ever forgive Lionel for the things he's done to Clark. I think there is, again, the same parallel issue for Lana being with Lex, to a certain extent - although she hasn't been privy to all the inside information that Martha has. The only rationale that we can stretch to cover the situation is that after Transference, Clark told Martha that Lionel had "changed." Perhaps she's taking that into consideration, coupled with her forgiving nature and willingness to give people second chances.

And TK.. I'm fond of "nice" Lionel too.. but I always feel sorry for him, and for Lex. But I think "evil" Lionel is a bit more fascinating as a character.. that's why I think he'll revert to that true nature.

Or, he'll stay good, and Lex will kill him.

 

[avidreader]

I agree with what you have all said, especially Serene's comments regarding the parallels between the Luthors and Martha and Lana.

I did read an interesting viewpoint of Annette O'Toole's in regards to the Lionel factor. That she is eternally grateful to him for helping them with Clark's adoption. However, even taking that into account and knowing all of the things that Lionel has done, including murdering his parents, I dont believe she would ever enter into a romantic relationship with him. She might step up real close and take a good look, but it wont amount to much.

With regards to Lionel being evil or not. I dunno, so far he has shown that he is a better protector of Clark's secret than what Lex would be, but what is his agenda with regards to that.

I imagine Season 6 will explore this and it should make for some very interesting scenes between TW and JG.

 

[Bruce_Wayne29]

My hope--Lionel redeems himself fully; Lex kills him in the next episode.

I always believed that the logic (or some of it anyway) behind making Lionel a protector of Clark and saying stuff to Lex like Clark is a son a father could be proud of, could be one of the reasons that makes Lex go evil, because he can't stand the sight of the father that rejected him and treated him like dirt embracing Clark.
Or does Lionel does these thinks on purpose to drive his son onto the path he always wanted, the path of a true Luthor ?...

 

[NHawk19]

I'd like to see Lionel revealed as Eradicator. Thus far in the show I think it would make the most sense and the backlog of events would certainly support this direction.

Dont get me wrong Lionel is at his best when he's evil. Its just that it would be a shame to "cheapen" the events that have taken place around him i.e. the multiple possessions by Jor-El, the healing by Clarks aura, etc. just to have him revert to where he was in Season 1.

I hate when SV makes leaps then has the characters revert, and never mentions the issues again, making the events around those leaps almost meaningless. S5 did a better job of tying episodes together but there was still a lot that was dropped.

 

[rumpuso]

I'd like to see Lionel revealed as Eradicator.

Would you mind leaving a brief explanation of who the Eradicator is? I'm not a comics person and this sounds interesting.

 

[Kaboom]

remember the superman from the 4 who took his place after the real supes died. the eradicator was the one with the yellow glasses.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I think Lionel is technicall undead now, I mean he did get thrown across a field into a car windshield at super speed.

So he is a zombie, and who knows what a zombie's motives might be.

 

[NHawk19]

Would you mind leaving a brief explanation of who the Eradicator is? I'm not a comics person and this sounds interesting.

This does a better job than I ever could. I know it's not very brief but you can skim it and pretty much get the idea.

Actually given that we have the fortress and everything I think it would fit really well. I think it would especially work if they went the route of him being an energy being and possessing Lionel. The could even go so far as to tie it back to when Clark and Lionel switched bodies and offer closure in the form of Clark's aura as it healed Lionel also made him the perfect vessel for Eradicator which is why during the commencement shower his eyes glazed over etc. It also makes the stones more pertinent as it could have been Eradicator that was enshrined in the stones and activated when they were put together, and Eradicator that brought Brainiac out of the Phantom Zone because it's his job to protect Kryptonians but since Human blood was on the Stones it gave the indication that humans had tried to control Kryptonian tech, the list of things which could be resolved by this just goes on.

I hate mind wipes as a matter of convenience (especially since they are really over done on this show) but there's also room for when he separates from Lionel, Lionel can revert to how he was before, since Eradicator was in control during much of that time. It also leaves room for Lionel's health ailments to come back.

 

[Bruce_Wayne29]

I believe he is channeling the Eradicator and in Oracle when he touched Brainiac, Brainiac pleased with him "Please don't do it !" like he was imploring to maybe a...fellow Kryptonian machine... I think it's ridiculous to think that Brainiac would be so naive to beg Jor-El not to stop him from killing his own son, that and the white eyes Lionel had while doing this. He didn't have white eyes when he was channeling Jor-El in the Fortress in Hidden so truly believe that he's channeling both.
I still believe the voice of Stamp is the Eradicator. He used it's powers in Covenant and they used for the end of the episode the Kryptonian rite of passage that the Eradicator made Superman do in the "Day Of The Krypton Man" comic book story arc.

 

[avidreader]

I'd like to see Lionel revealed as Eradicator. Thus far in the show I think it would make the most sense and the backlog of events would certainly support this direction.

This I agree with. It makes a heck of alot of sense.

 

[NHawk19]

I think the white eyes were just an oversight by the F/X department.

But I agree Stamp could be Eradicator. Though I think Stamp will turn out to be Jor-El and while they may skip Eradicator I hope it turns out they mention him as something Jor-El controlled, as the House of El are the ones who can control him. I'd just assume the keep Jor-El as Jor-El and Eradicator as Eradicator.

 

[eXperiment]

I think he's good. But I'm still not sure.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I believe he is channeling the Eradicator and in Oracle when he touched Brainiac, Brainiac pleased with him "Please don't do it !" like he was imploring to maybe a...fellow Kryptonian machine... I think it's ridiculous to think that Brainiac would be so naive to beg Jor-El not to stop him from killing his own son, that and the white eyes Lionel had while doing this. He didn't have white eyes when he was channeling Jor-El in the Fortress in Hidden so truly believe that he's channeling both.
I still believe the voice of Stamp is the Eradicator. He used it's powers in Covenant and they used for the end of the episode the Kryptonian rite of passage that the Eradicator made Superman do in the "Day Of The Krypton Man" comic book story arc.

I agree, I have thought Jor-el was the Eradicator for a long time. It would also explain some of his actions. The Eradicator protects Kryptonian technology regardless of what he has to do to do it.

I'm glad others agree.

 

[avidreader]

^^^ The Eradicator would be alive, wouldnt he? Which could explain how he knows what is happening at any given time.

Whereas the Jor-el from the FOS that we saw in the movies was really just a hologram that anticipated Clark's questioning.

How do they use Jor-el in the comics?