The Amazing Spider-Man When and how should Gwen Stacy die?

[SpeterMan3]

One thing I agree with here, is that Peter shouldn't end up with MJ in the movie after Gwen's death. Assuming this is a trilogy, it would feel incredibly rushed and plus I don't want to see MJ's and Peter's relationship/relationship problems again. I think I got just about enough of that in the first trilogy. I still disagree that it is sexist to kill off Gwen but no point in going back and forth if neither of us will budge.

^This

 

[mr. peasant]

Yup, I kinda want Gwen to get a little too involved with Peter's Spider-Man business and try to help when she clearly does not have the power to actually help. That said, I would still enjoy seeing the actual scene of her death close to the comics.

Of course, the danger with that is that it would again be read as sexist as it portrays Gwen as incompetent and unaware of her own limitations; which is not to say stuff like that can't or shouldn't be done anymore in this day and age but to simply be aware of the implications and undertones such turn of events have. A slight alteration to potentially prevent this and give her death a more positive spin is to have her operate within her limitations but simply get bested by the villain the same way villains often ultimately get beaten by a story's protagonist - i.e. she's good but the other person was better - and/or to have her death be a heroic sacrifice akin to Captain Stacy's.

 

[Web face]

Of course, the danger with that is that it would again be read as sexist as it portrays Gwen as incompetent and unaware of her own limitations; which is not to say stuff like that can't or shouldn't be done anymore in this day and age but to simply be aware of the implications and undertones such turn of events have. A slight alteration to potentially prevent this and give her death a more positive spin is to have her operate within her limitations but simply get bested by the villain the same way villains often ultimately get beaten by a story's protagonist - i.e. she's good but the other person was better - and/or to have her death be a heroic sacrifice akin to Captain Stacy's.

That is what I mean. Make her seem heroic when she dies, like her father and Uncle Ben. Maybe help Peter make a device (like spider-tracers) to stop Gobby, as both her and Pete are geniuses. By the end I hope Goblin finds out, if he doesn't know already, that Peter is Spider-man and Gwen has actually been helping him somewhat by informing the cops about what the Goblin is doing or whatever it may be. Goblin, being the villain he is, goes after Gwen because she is the weaker of the two. I mean come on, wouldn't it be a bit foolish for the Goblin to go straight for Spider-Man when he knows he can first weaken his spirits and wouldn't have as much help?

 

[LegendAssemble]

That is what I mean. Make her seem heroic when she dies, like her father and Uncle Ben. Maybe help Peter make a device (like spider-tracers) to stop Gobby, as both her and Pete are geniuses. By the end I hope Goblin finds out, if he doesn't know already, that Peter is Spider-man and Gwen has actually been helping him somewhat by informing the cops about what the Goblin is doing or whatever it may be. Goblin, being the villain he is, goes after Gwen because she is the weaker of the two. I mean come on, wouldn't it be a bit foolish for the Goblin to go straight for Spider-Man when he knows he can first weaken his spirits and wouldn't have as much help?

While I like that idea it would take away too much from Captain Stacy's message at the end of the film. Peter needs a villain who's twisted and unlike the Lizard will hurt those around him, making him get a reality check.

I want Peter to find Uncle Ben's killer and some how be the cause of his death, taking revenge for the murder of his Uncle. Now I don't mean he needs to murder the guy, but he should do something that leads to his death, and then have a scene where we see the horror it's brought on. Have Aunt May devistated and feeling like she's reliving the whole thing, have Gwen be disgusted with him, and maybe have Jonah Jameson say Spider-Man should be jailed for his death. Then at the end after Goblin has murdered Gwen, Peter should have the chance to kill him and remember all the pain the death of the mugger caused and decide to spare him. I think they could keep Norman alive in this universe given the current status quo in the comics right now.

 

[Web face]

While I like that idea it would take away too much from Captain Stacy's message at the end of the film. Peter needs a villain who's twisted and unlike the Lizard will hurt those around him, making him get a reality check.

I want Peter to find Uncle Ben's killer and some how be the cause of his death, taking revenge for the murder of his Uncle. Now I don't mean he needs to murder the guy, but he should do something that leads to his death, and then have a scene where we see the horror it's brought on. Have Aunt May devistated and feeling like she's reliving the whole thing, have Gwen be disgusted with him, and maybe have Jonah Jameson say Spider-Man should be jailed for his death. Then at the end after Goblin has murdered Gwen, Peter should have the chance to kill him and remember all the pain the death of the mugger caused and decide to spare him. I think they could keep Norman alive in this universe given the current status quo in the comics right now.

Hmm I like it. The weird part is, if they make Gwen help too much, then it will seem like Peter doesn't care about Cap Stacy's promise. Even though Peter said what he said at the end of TASM, I still think he will try to keep George's promise and protect her. Peter is probably thinking, "I'll just look out for Gwen, like a bodyguard, and who would make a better bodyguard than Spider-Man?"
Also, about the killer, they could make it so Peter sees that the killer of Uncle Ben had a little boy, and wonder what makes him a better person than the thief if he made others feel the pain that he felt. Then when he has a chance to kill GG, assuming Harry will be in the movie, Peter will think of how Harry would be hurt without a father.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Hmm I like it. The weird part is, if they make Gwen help too much, then it will seem like Peter doesn't care about Cap Stacy's promise. Even though Peter said what he said at the end of TASM, I still think he will try to keep George's promise and protect her. Peter is probably thinking, "I'll just look out for Gwen, like a bodyguard, and who would make a better bodyguard than Spider-Man?"
Also, about the killer, they could make it so Peter sees that the killer of Uncle Ben had a little boy, and wonder what makes him a better person than the thief if he made others feel the pain that he felt. Then when he has a chance to kill GG, assuming Harry will be in the movie, Peter will think of how Harry would be hurt without a father.

I agree. Honestly I love the little speech Peter gives after the Goblins death about how "a mans death should mean something, so we know, we didn't just live for nothing." and when he says "I thought I'd feel better seeing the Goblin die, but I feel a little more a lone." I think that should be the underlying tone for the movie, revenge, and the way it hurts more than it heals. It was the only good part of Batman Forever and could make for a great movie in the right hands.

Also for the promise I think Peter broke it pretty badly but I mean I think he's just going to try for a secret love. Where he's going to see her in secret and hide it from everyone. Peter meets Harry in college so, i think thats when this movie will take place. Maybe Peter tells his roommate and (like in SM1) he unknowingly slipps the info to his Dad. However this needs to be handled well. I think Gwens death should also be partially her fault, it the grey area. Peter relives Uncle Bens death a little bit but is unsure if its his fault or not. That why it doesn't feel like he's regressing when he inevitably ends up with Mary Jane in movie 3.

 

[Dagenspear]

I want Peter to find Uncle Ben's killer and some how be the cause of his death, taking revenge for the murder of his Uncle. Now I don't mean he needs to murder the guy, but he should do something that leads to his death, and then have a scene where we see the horror it's brought on. Have Aunt May devistated and feeling like she's reliving the whole thing, have Gwen be disgusted with him, and maybe have Jonah Jameson say Spider-Man should be jailed for his death. Then at the end after Goblin has murdered Gwen, Peter should have the chance to kill him and remember all the pain the death of the mugger caused and decide to spare him. I think they could keep Norman alive in this universe given the current status quo in the comics right now.

That wouldn't work. It completely undermines what Peter realizes in TASM. That he can't act on revenge. And if Gwen's gotta die, Gobby's gotta die. It would seem disingenuous to Gwen to let the bastard live.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That wouldn't work. It completely undermines what Peter realizes in TASM. That he can't act on revenge. And if Gwen's gotta die, Gobby's gotta die. It would seem disingenuous to Gwen to let the bastard live.

... where exactly did "revenge" come up in TASM? that wasn't an explored theme at all... infact... the whole movie had him trying to track down uncle ben's killer... before the lizard came around.. and then nothing more was said. There was no "revenge" story arch.. because nothing got resolved.. and there was no cathartic event that made him realize anything about revenge....

 

[LegendAssemble]

That wouldn't work. It completely undermines what Peter realizes in TASM. That he can't act on revenge. And if Gwen's gotta die, Gobby's gotta die. It would seem disingenuous to Gwen to let the bastard live.

Peter didn't learn you can't act on revenge someone told him he wasn't a hero but he clearly still has the wanted poster up in his room. He learned he needs to help others and be a hero, not that he needs to let go of grudges. Anyway no it wouldn't be, it was disingenuous to uncle ben to "let the bastard live". If anything it would be more powerful for Peter to know he's alive in Ravencroft and that he killed his first love, but that if Uncle Ben's murder is to mean anything then he has to be the bigger man and accept he can't play god choosing the fate of men.

Normans been alive for over a decade, it would be acceptable for him to live. In fact I want them to do this, and I want the movie to be praised for this decision, just for you .

 

[LegendAssemble]

... where exactly did "revenge" come up in TASM? that wasn't an explored theme at all... infact... the whole movie had him trying to track down uncle ben's killer... before the lizard came around.. and then nothing more was said. There was no "revenge" story arch.. because nothing got resolved.. and there was no cathartic event that made him realize anything about revenge....

He's just a troll, he likes to start arguments over everything, the only thing thats really consistant is that he loved Gwen.

 

[Dagenspear]

and there was no cathartic event that made him realize anything about revenge...

What are you talking about? Revenge is the entire purpose of him looking for Uncle Ben's killer. But then he, rightfully, gets told off by Captain Stacy and goes off to the bridge, trying to prove something, until he saves that boy. I love this scene, it's one of my favorites in the movie, he gives the boy back to his father and his father hugs him, and I don't know how Andrew Garfield does it, but in that one reaction shot I feel Peter let go of his need for revenge, I feel Peter find himself in that moment, and when the father asks him, "Who are you?" I feel Peter stand up a little straighter, with a renewed sense of purpose, now filled with a sense of right, and say, "I'm Spider-Man." It's beautiful, and it's perfect, and I honestly got choked up a little in the theater. You can't tell me you didn't feel that tremendous weight just lift off of Peter's shoulders in that moment.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

He's just a troll, he likes to start arguments over everything, the only thing thats really consistant is that he loved Gwen.

you're right. i should just go back to ignoring him...

 

[Dagenspear]

Anyway no it wouldn't be, it was disingenuous to uncle ben to "let the bastard live". If anything it would be more powerful for Peter to know he's alive in Ravencroft and that he killed his first love, but that if Uncle Ben's murder is to mean anything then he has to be the bigger man and accept he can't play god choosing the fate of men.

Normans been alive for over a decade, it would be acceptable for him to live. In fact I want them to do this, and I want the movie to be praised for this decision, just for you .

Dude, bringing Goblin back was the dumbest decision ever. He's essentially become the go-to plot device for stuck writers. And your comparing a monster who throws innocent young women off bridges to a guy whose gun accidentally goes off while wrestling for it. They're obviously cut from the EXACT same evil cloth. lol.

 

[Dagenspear]

He's just a troll, he likes to start arguments over everything, the only thing thats really consistant is that he loved Gwen.

And Peter, and Connors, and Ben, and May, and George. Grow a soul, and stop poisoning peoples minds with your mean-spirited trash-talk, coward.

 

[PSYLENTGuardian]

What are you talking about? Revenge is the entire purpose of him looking for Uncle Ben's killer. But then he, rightfully, gets told off by Captain Stacy and goes off to the bridge, trying to prove something, until he saves that boy. I love this scene, it's one of my favorites in the movie, he gives the boy back to his father and his father hugs him, and I don't know how Andrew Garfield does it, but in that one reaction shot I feel Peter let go of his need for revenge, I feel Peter find himself in that moment, and when the father asks him, "Who are you?" I feel Peter stand up a little straighter, with a renewed sense of purpose, now filled with a sense of right, and say, "I'm Spider-Man." It's beautiful, and it's perfect, and I honestly got choked up a little in the theater. You can't tell me you didn't feel that tremendous weight just lift off of Peter's shoulders in that moment.

I don't see how this guy's trolling. He's putting his opinions out there, and I happen to agree with this one.

Just curious, Dagenspear, what did you think of the movie as a whole?

 

[Web face]

Dude, bringing Goblin back was the dumbest decision ever. He's essentially become the go-to plot device for stuck writers. And your comparing a monster who throws innocent young women off bridges to a guy whose gun accidentally goes off while wrestling for. They're obviously cut from the EXACT same evil cloth. lol.

I don't think it was really an accident. I think the guy killed Uncle Ben on purpose once he got the chance. Also, I really think Peter should fight off his urge to kill Goblin or the thief or whoever it is, because Uncle Ben and Richard wouldn't approve. Lastly, about the revenge thing, I think Peter learned that he shouldn't be hunting random people legacy look like his uncle's killer because he ruined the cops' strategy and he wasn't helping really helping much. That doesn't, however, mean that Peter learned to let go all the hate he had for that man and to not simply get revenge on him by making his punishment more severe. If Peter runs into that guy again, I hope they show an inner conflict like, Peter remembering Uncle Ben's lecture in school after he humiliated Flash. I would still prefer if they first have Peter kill the thief and realize that it didn't bring Uncle Ben back and just left him feeling bad about himself. Then, when he has the opportunity to get revenge on GG, he doesn't because he has a flashback to Uncle Ben or the effects of him killing off (or simply not saving him when he has the chance, rather) the thief. It could be pretty powerful if done correctly in my opinion.
EDIT- @LegendAssemble & Dagenspear, can you guys at least TRY to get along?

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

And Peter, and Connors, and Ben, and May, and George. Grow a soul, and stop poisoning peoples minds with your mean-spirited trash-talk, coward.

I wouldnt let it bother you. Stating or arguing your opinion is not trolling.

Its a tough decision for me though. I like the idea of Spidey beating Gobby to within an inch from death. But I also like the idea of him going over the edge and just finishing the job. I'd be happy either way.

 

[Dagenspear]

I don't see how this guy's trolling. He's putting his opinions out there, and I happen to agree with this one.

Just curious, Dagenspear, what did you think of the movie as a whole?

I really loved it and enjoyed it. I mean, the origin was a little clunky, but once the film got past that it really soared for me, or swung rather (lol), the crane scene, despite being kinda corny, was very powerful to me, as was Captain Stacy's death scene, which brought me to tears a little, and Andrew brings such raw emotion to it. He's really fantastic. Emma's amazing, as always, and brings a great vibe and personality to a character who may not be quite so known for it. And thier chemistry just shines. Everyone gives a great performance in it. I do wish we could've seen more of Rhys Iffans though, gotten a little more inside his characters head, ya know, saw his family, stuff like that. I have a few other issues with it, but I prefer not to dwell on the few small bad things in a movie.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Dude, bringing Goblin back was the dumbest decision ever. He's essentially become the go-to plot device for stuck writers. And your comparing a monster who throws innocent young women off bridges to a guy whose gun accidentally goes off while wrestling for it. They're obviously cut from the EXACT same evil cloth. lol.

he shot him it didn't "accidentally go off". Besides revenge is revenge, he took away his father figure, he took away his girlfriend. It's more powerful for him to live because Peter knows he's out there but it shows he's grown enough to deal with it.

 

[Dagenspear]

he shot him it didn't "accidentally go off". Besides revenge is revenge, he took away his father figure, he took away his girlfriend. It's more powerful for him to live because Peter knows he's out there but it shows he's grown enough to deal with it.

Let's look at the facts. The man doesn't use the gun in a threatening manner, he trips and drops the gun, Ben grabs for it, and so does he, they wrestle for it, and it fires. There's more to say that it's accidental than to say it's on purpose. Sure, he's a criminal, probably doesn't have the greatest moral center in the world and is a coward, considering he ran away, but that doesn't automatically make him pure evil, nor does it mean he shot Ben on purpose. Innocent until proven guilty. It's what's right. And I don't find it to all neccesarily be "more powerful" if Goblin lives, so it must not be as universally factual as you percieve it to be.

 

[Web face]

Let's look at the facts. The man doesn't use the gun in a threatening manner, he trips and drops the gun, Ben grabs for it, and so does he, they wrestle for it, and it fires. There's more to say that it's accidental than to say it's on purpose. Sure, he's a criminal, probably doesn't have the greatest moral center in the world and is a coward, considering he ran away, but that doesn't automatically make him pure evil, nor does it mean he shot Ben on purpose. Innocent until proven guilty. It's what's right. And I don't find it to all neccesarily be "more powerful" if Goblin lives, so it must not be as universally factual as you percieve it to be.

Well I guess what you said is not as universally factual as you perceive it to be because I disagree with it. The killer clearly shot him on purpose. I mean, what do you think he was going to do, get the gun and run away with this loud old man chasing him down streets? This doesn't mean the killer might not regret it later or see it as a mistake. Just at that moment, he purposefully fired off his gun when given the opportunity.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Let's look at the facts. The man doesn't use the gun in a threatening manner, he trips and drops the gun, Ben grabs for it, and so does he, they wrestle for it, and it fires. There's more to say that it's accidental than to say it's on purpose. Sure, he's a criminal, probably doesn't have the greatest moral center in the world and is a coward, considering he ran away, but that doesn't automatically make him pure evil, nor does it mean he shot Ben on purpose. Innocent until proven guilty. It's what's right. And I don't find it to all neccesarily be "more powerful" if Goblin lives, so it must not be as universally factual as you percieve it to be.

It makes Peter grow so yes it is factual. Some people complained about Peter not beating up Flash in the movie, but he never stooped to his level, it might not have been what we wanted to see, but it was more in the right.

As for Uncle Ben Sherlock, he's attacking a man with a weapon and the guy uses his weapon. It's murder none the less. Plus this isn't law and order this is a movie and like good movies it should explore a characters emotions.

As far as Peter is concerned this guy took away his father figure and he could have stopped him. The Green Goblin too away the girl he loves and he believes he could have stopped him. No, the robber isn't satan incarnate but the two can be compared at Peters level. It's not like one stole his lunch money both people killed someone he loves!

EDIT: Also since you don't think Gwen should die because she's a good person and they shouldn't go by the comics because if people wanted those stories they should just read them, by your logic you should be really upset they killed Uncle Ben too!

 

[Dagenspear]

Well I guess what you said is not as universally factual as you perceive it to be because I disagree with it.

And I never stated it as such. I clearly said that there's more to say one over the other.

The killer clearly shot him on purpose. I mean, what do you think he was going to do, get the gun and run away with this loud old man chasing him down streets? This doesn't mean the killer might not regret it later or see it as a mistake. Just at that moment, he purposefully fired off his gun when given the opportunity.

It's no ones right or place to state such a thing. I can't know his intentions. And neither can you. Perhaps you should practice a little belief in humanity and offer the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Web face]

And I never stated it as such. I clearly said that there's more to say one over the other.

i am mostly disagree about the part where you say he isnt using the gun in a threatening manner. He was probably planning to steal from that shop, and the gun's safety wasn't on. It would be a little convenient to say that he accidentally turned off the safety and accidentally pulled the trigger. It would also be pretty hard to say it was all an accident if he was walking around without the safety on on his gun.

It's no ones right or place to state such a thing. I can't know his intentions. And neither can you. Perhaps you should practice a little belief in humanity and offer the benefit of the doubt.

Oh yes I should totally give the benefit of the doubt to a guy that walks around stealing from cash registers with a loaded gun in his pocket. How silly of me to not think this guy accidentally shot the gun. I mean it's not he is carrying it to use. He is most likely just going down the street to show his buddies his cool new gun that is fully loaded.

 

[Rogue Kira]

How'd this Thread go from "When and how should Gwen Stacy die?" to whether or not the gun went off purposely and whether or not the goblin should die ?lol straying a bit from the topic eh?lol