Where did the DCEU go wrong and what can be learned from it?

[The Overlord]

Where did the original DCEU go wrong? This article has some ideas:

Long Live the DCU: Why the DCEU Wasn't Worth Saving

What can be learned from the failures of the original DCEU when making a movie DCU?

 

[Detective Conan]

Was planning to make a thread similar to this but I got beaten to the punch, lol.

As for the thread question, unlike most who’s default answer would be rushing to the Justice League by doing BvS after MOS. I’d say it really went wrong with Zack’s hiring, and the eventual decision to bring him back for BvS (which never made much sense to me). Even if DC did things the Marvel way, and had each hero have their own individual movies before a team-up there is no guarantee those movies wouldn’t also be bad given the poor quality control from those heading the franchise at the time. For example, If Zack just did MOS2 with the same amount of creative freedom he was afforded with BvS, it’s still likely the movie gets critically panned and underperforms as the issue with the DCEU was never that it was rushed, the issue is execution. So doing solo movies before crossovers don’t mean jack if those also turn out bad. Which likely would’ve happened even if they did it Marvel’s way. At the very least, I fail to see how a straight MOS sequel directed by Snyder would’ve been all that much better than what we got in BvS.

I really think doing BvS after MOS was a good idea, actually, because unlike Marvel at the time, DC had access to all their A list characters so there’s little need to do a solo Batman movie or even another solo Superman movie before doing crossover movies. If anything, DC’s approach made sense as way of differentiating itself from the competition and likely would’ve worked had the right creative team been put in charge instead of Snyder/Goyer and Terrio.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The "story" of the DCEU was built on a poor foundation from the start with BvS. It was never going to be salvaged after that.

 

[FunkMiller]

The fact remains that hiring Snyder was the central and main cause of the failure of the DCEU.

What should be learned from it, is that you have to pick your shepherd very carefully. They have to be someone who has a genuine love and passion for the characters.

Snyder never had either. He was passionate about deconstructing the superhero... and pretty much hated the classic iterations of them. All completely wrong for the person meant to kickstart a cinematic universe.

Doomed from the start.

 

[DCDAVE]

BVS. Would have been a 2 Billion dollar movie if the movie would have been about Batman and Superman being friends instead of fighting each other. Still don’t understand why Batman would try and kill Superman. A positive action pact movie with them teaming up to fight Lex/Metallo and maybe the Joker would have been a crowd pleaser.

 

[Frodo]

Put the individual characters and their own journeys stories first , before rushing to team up and shared universe event films.

Do the hard work of crafting these characters personalities, individual lives, and their own supporting casts first , before rushing to a team up film for the sake of emphasizing a connected universe other other films.

One of the many problems of the last DCEU was the feeling at WB ,and in some segments of DC fandom , they needed to " Catch Up" with Marvel in the shared universe department.

Well, they aren't going to "catch up" with Marvel at this point in the shared universe department.

It will be close to 20 years since the first Ironman was released by the time the new slate of films gets its stride.

So the whole concept of trying to "catch up" should be thrown out the window , and the focus should be on good , individual films which connect to a larger plan down the road.

You've got to lay that foundation of good solo films as a launch pad to the crossover event films.

The goal of the hard reboot shouldn't only be, to create a more cohesive, single continuity , shared universe .

At the end of the day ,GA ain't gonna care if it's all connected, if all the films stink .

The goal first and foremost, should be to make high quality, good films that audiences will embrace and enjoy.

If you have that, the audiences will follow the characters on their own and shared journeys and adventures.

But the films have to be good. That should be the priority.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I like some of Snyder's stuff, but at the end of the day he was the wrong choice (or should have been subject to far greater/stronger oversight throughout).

My lessons to be learned;

1. Hire directors who not only like the characters but also understand them
2. Once a director's vision has been greenlit, let them get on with it
3. 'Cool' looking stuff is important in these movies - but so is storytelling (comics manage it, no excuse for movies not to)
4. Casting (Snyder got some stuff right. But some stuff... not)
5. Have patience
6. Respect the fans. Yes, in the grand scheme we're not the majority audience, but we are the ones who put these characters where they are today (i.e. in a position where they can earn studios a lot of money)

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Superman has to be done right for the DC universe to be truly appealing

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

The "story" of the DCEU was built on a poor foundation from the start with BvS. It was never going to be salvaged after that.

Took the words out of my mouth. BvS and then Suicide Squad was not the foundation or the move to go for a cinematic universe.

 

[Mani-Man]

The fact remains that hiring Snyder was the central and main cause of the failure of the DCEU.

What should be learned from it, is that you have to pick your shepherd very carefully. They have to be someone who has a genuine love and passion for the characters.

Snyder never had either. He was passionate about deconstructing the superhero... and pretty much hated the classic iterations of them. All completely wrong for the person meant to kickstart a cinematic universe.

Doomed from the start.

Well they wanted Superman to be "Dark", so it made sense hiring a guy whos only interest in Superman is about Deconstructing the character and making it dark.

The Dumber thing was then suddenly going "We want to compete with Marvels universe" while also keeping the whole vibe of Snyder going.
Building a whole universe on your heroes being deconstructed...was a very very dumb idea.

Snyder building a elseworld universe, would have worked fantasticly...having snyder build your main universe that is dark, depressing and edgy...yeah no thats not a good idea.

BVS. Would have been a 2 Billion dollar movie if the movie would have been about Batman and Superman being friends instead of fighting each other. Still don’t understand why Batman would try and kill Superman. A positive action pact movie with them teaming up to fight Lex/Metallo and maybe the Joker would have been a crowd pleaser.

That yeah.
Sure a VS movie would have been cool too...if Snyder wouldnt have ruined the idea of it super early.
Like imagine how much better this all would have been if Batman wouldnt have killed goons left and right and instead would have been so paranoid that he was only willing to break his Rule for Superman?
But a Worlds Finest movie that captures both characters well, have them fight together...would have crossed a Billion easily.
Its the two most famous Comic Book Characters...how do you not manage a Billion Dollar having both of them in the movie?

 

[metaphysician]

Pithy version: "Where did it go wrong: Hiring Zach Snyder. What to learn from this: Don't hire Zach Snyder."

More generally. . . story is king, and the most important part of story is character. You can pretty much divide the DC movies into "those that tell a story about a character" and "those which do something else". You can have cool fights and witty wordplay and fantastic imagery, but they *have* to derive from character. Which is one of the problems going all the way back to Man of Steel: the giant third act fight scenes that get such focus and attention? Are almost completely disconnected from the character development ( already vague and incoherent ) of Clark Kent. Never forget that fight scenes are dances, which tell a story through movement and interaction rather than words, but they still tell a story. Or at least, they'd *better* tell a story.

 

[DCDAVE]

Well they wanted Superman to be "Dark", so it made sense hiring a guy whos only interest in Superman is about Deconstructing the character and making it dark.

The Dumber thing was then suddenly going "We want to compete with Marvels universe" while also keeping the whole vibe of Snyder going.
Building a whole universe on your heroes being deconstructed...was a very very dumb idea.

Snyder building a elseworld universe, would have worked fantasticly...having snyder build your main universe that is dark, depressing and edgy...yeah no thats not a good idea.



That yeah.
Sure a VS movie would have been cool too...if Snyder wouldnt have ruined the idea of it super early.
Like imagine how much better this all would have been if Batman wouldnt have killed goons left and right and instead would have been so paranoid that he was only willing to break his Rule for Superman?
But a Worlds Finest movie that captures both characters well, have them fight together...would have crossed a Billion easily.
Its the two most famous Comic Book Characters...how do you not manage a Billion Dollar having both of them in the movie?

You nailed it. WB panicked after the Avengers came out and made a billion. The executives saw the finish line before they got out the gate. I bet (hope)Gunn is going to do a World’s Finest before he does a Justice League movie. That crossover of Superman vs the Joker/ Bruce Wayne vs Lex Luther in the animated series could not have been done better. Lois dating Bruce. Clark getting jealous. How they found out each other’s identity. Priceless series. I hope Gunn uses the old animated universe. John Stewart and Hawkgirl were my favorites.

 

[djsunyc]

i don't know when it all went wrong but i remember the first thing i saw that made me start to question things...

it was went they changed johnathan kent's death from natural causes to forcing his son to make a choice not to save him. that made absolutely zero sense in any context for the character of superman. what was vital was for superman to know that no matter how powerful he was, there are some people he just can't save. but snyder decided to make his dad give him a mind f*** and putting all that guilt on him for not saving him...when he could've easily saved him w/o anyone noticing!!!

and then him killing zod at the end trying to save 3 people when that fight killed thousands was mind boggling and told me that snyder was more about the spectacle and set pieces as opposed to the journey and the character.

 

[GreenKToo]

Hiring snyder.....

 

[TheScarecrow]

The DCEU died when Snyder put a bullet in CIA agent Jimmy Olsen’s head.

 

[Rijowhi]

Synder is a great visualist but as djsunyc stated that scene where Clark just lets Jonathan Kent die in a Tornado was just baffling. That was the worst scene of MOS, the rest was a solid enough start.

BvS is where it all went wrong though…’’Save Martha’’, an awful take on Lex Luthor and killing off Superman in the second film. Oh dear.

I have to admit I was happy when Synder was picked as I thought his visual work on 300 was perfect for Superman…but I really wish the stories were better.

 

[BobJM]

It was absolutely the hiring of Snyder that first doomed Superman, punctuated by Zod’s snapped neck at end of Man of Steel.

And then for some reason, Snyder was given the keys to castle with Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash in Batman v Superman and Justice League. Which spun-off to the much-maligned Suicide Squad.

It was a runaway train from the start. If Goyer teamed with another director after conceiving the story with Nolan, we would have a very different (better) DCEU.

Or even if Snyder made Man of Steel, WB still had the opportunity to salvage the situation. But then BVS came out and he went ahead and made Batman a killer too, and wanted Diana’s photograph to be from the Crimean War with her carrying the heads of her enemies.

It was literally all Snyder.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I have to admit I was happy when Synder was picked as I thought his visual work on 300 was perfect for Superman…but I really wish the stories were better.

I was exactly the same. I loved his Watchmen too.

 

[FunkMiller]

It was absolutely the hiring of Snyder that first doomed Superman, punctuated by Zod’s snapped neck at end of Man of Steel.

And then for some reason, Snyder was given the keys to castle with Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash in Batman v Superman and Justice League. Which spun-off to the much-maligned Suicide Squad.

It was a runaway train from the start. If Goyer teamed with another director after conceiving the story with Nolan, we would have a very different (better) DCEU.

Or even if Snyder made Man of Steel, WB still had the opportunity to salvage the situation. But then BVS came out and he went ahead and made Batman a killer too, and wanted Diana’s photograph to be from the Crimean War with her carrying the heads of her enemies.

It was literally all Snyder.

Ugh. I’d forgotten about that. How can a fully grown man be such a child?

 

[Mani-Man]

It was absolutely the hiring of Snyder that first doomed Superman, punctuated by Zod’s snapped neck at end of Man of Steel.

And then for some reason, Snyder was given the keys to castle with Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash in Batman v Superman and Justice League. Which spun-off to the much-maligned Suicide Squad.

It was a runaway train from the start. If Goyer teamed with another director after conceiving the story with Nolan, we would have a very different (better) DCEU.

Or even if Snyder made Man of Steel, WB still had the opportunity to salvage the situation. But then BVS came out and he went ahead and made Batman a killer too, and wanted Diana’s photograph to be from the Crimean War with her carrying the heads of her enemies.

It was literally all Snyder.

The way this man Missunderstood the Trinity so completely, needs to be studied.
The weirdest thing is that you could have easily turned this Universe into a Elseworld Universe and kept going with it.
Would have made this all bearable.
But selling this completely character Assassination of the JL as the main universe you want to have long plans with...boy was that an awful idea.

 

[GreenKToo]

None can argue about snyder's visuals, but his storytelling and dialogue were absolutely atrocious.

 

[GreenKToo]

The way this man Missunderstood the Trinity so completely, needs to be studied.
The weirdest thing is that you could have easily turned this Universe into a Elseworld Universe and kept going with it.
Would have made this all bearable.
But selling this completely character Assassination of the JL as the main universe you want to have long plans with...boy was that an awful idea.

He chose to do things his own way, ignoring the history of Superman and Batman.
He chose poorly.

 

[Still Wynning]

Ugh. I’d forgotten about that. How can a fully grown man be such a child?

I mean, when you’re someone who grew up just mainly reading Heavy Metal, most likely for the gratuitous sex and over the top violence, and have only a rudimentary, high school level knowledge of philosophy and possess the filmmaking skill of a young boy cutting and pasting pages/panels together just because they look cool, without understanding their original context, it makes perfect sense.

 

[TheVileOne]

BVS. Would have been a 2 Billion dollar movie if the movie would have been about Batman and Superman being friends instead of fighting each other. Still don’t understand why Batman would try and kill Superman. A positive action pact movie with them teaming up to fight Lex/Metallo and maybe the Joker would have been a crowd pleaser.

He wasn't even trying to kill Superman in The Dark Knight Returns it was all basically a big ruse for Batman to fake his death and send a message.

Man of Steel was nothing that couldn't have been salvaged. They just needed to make some changes and tweaks along the way. Batman vs Superman though is really what derailed the train.

Seven years later, and WB still hasn't recovered from it.

 

[GreenKToo]

He wasn't even trying to kill Superman in The Dark Knight Returns it was all basically a big ruse for Batman to fake his death and send a message.

Man of Steel was nothing that couldn't have been salvaged. They just needed to make some changes and tweaks along the way. Batman vs Superman though is really what derailed the train.

Seven years later, and WB still hasn't recovered from it.

Agree. MoS could/should have been a good starting point.
They should have politely let snyder go after it and hired a new director for the sequel.
But, WB is gonna WB.

Imvho, the problem was they had too many cooks in the kitchen.
Now, it's supposedly just Gunn and Safran.

There should be no excuses now.