Where did the DCEU go wrong and what can be learned from it?

[HydraSith12]

To answer the title question as somebody who only just saw this thread

They went wrong in hiring a director who wanted to basically do an elseworld story and had no interest in the conventional versions of the characters

What can be learnt is to not do that

Everything wrong with the DCEU can be attributed to the fact that the entire universe has basically been trying to do damage control since 2016

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too Adam West Batman was too funny Michael Keaton Batman killed his villains Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0 Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives in the comics Batman is a member of the Justice League he does not kill he is a street hero but also fights aliens in the canon Batman lives in the same world as Superman is a shame what Zack Snyder did to Ben Affleck Batman he had a lot of potential if only they had stuck to the comics canon

 

[Drizzle]

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too Adam West Batman was too funny Michael Keaton Batman killed his villains Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0 Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives in the comics Batman is a member of the Justice League he does not kill he is a street hero but also fights aliens in the canon Batman lives in the same world as Superman is a shame what Zack Snyder did to Ben Affleck Batman he had a lot of potential if only they had stuck to the comics canon

Affleck's Batman killed way more people than Keaton's Batman.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too Adam West Batman was too funny Michael Keaton Batman killed his villains Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0 Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives in the comics Batman is a member of the Justice League he does not kill he is a street hero but also fights aliens in the canon Batman lives in the same world as Superman is a shame what Zack Snyder did to Ben Affleck Batman he had a lot of potential if only they had stuck to the comics canon

There's a legitimate argument that West is the most comic book accurate if we're looking at the character as he existed in the silver age. One I am inclined to agree with.

 

[HydraSith12]

Affleck's Batman killed way more people than Keaton's Batman.

Ben Affleck Batman lost Dick Grayson afterward he became darker starting to kill but changed his personality after his battle with Superman meanwhile Michael Keaton Batman was a psychopath he is the only Batman in live action who indirectly killed the Joker he also killed random criminals and in Flash Keaton Batman says that he cleaned up Gotham implying that he killed all of his rogue villains i think Ben Affleck with a good script other than Snyder would have been a good Batman

 

[DeadlyWest]

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too Adam West Batman was too funny Michael Keaton Batman killed his villains Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0 Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives in the comics Batman is a member of the Justice League he does not kill he is a street hero but also fights aliens in the canon Batman lives in the same world as Superman is a shame what Zack Snyder did to Ben Affleck Batman he had a lot of potential if only they had stuck to the comics canon

Firstly, Val I still contend is the most underrated of all time and people actually calling him even the same character as Clooney tells me that they haven't watched Batman Forever recently. Yes, it's Joel Schumacher, it's goofy.

But also like


Anybody saying this isn't genuinely peak Batman **** baffles me. You're entitled to that opinion. But it baffles me.

As for the "every live incarnation is an elseworld" argument

Keaton not being as poorly received as Affleck makes sense because the character's core wasn't as established back then (in the eyes of the general audience, not overall) due to it not being so easy to get access to that information. Late 90s you had to go into a comic shop and hope you got a Batman comic that understands the character. Today you can quite literally google it. Hence Affleck's Batman not working as well. Because in the eyes of the general audience, Batman not killing is already established as a given thing with his character from A: the increased access to comic books in the digital age and B: the Nolan movies establishing it for those who don't read the comics regardless (despite the liberties Nolan took with the rule).

Affleck in 1989 would've probably been considered the Bees Knees. He doesn't work in 2016. Actually, I tell a slight lie. He'd work in an elseworld style story, like the one Zack was trying to tell. He doesn't work when he's meant to be the main version of the character in a shared universe for at least a decade.

 

[Mani-Man]

To answer the title question as somebody who only just saw this thread

They went wrong in hiring a director who wanted to basically do an elseworld story and had no interest in the conventional versions of the characters

What can be learnt is to not do that

Everything wrong with the DCEU can be attributed to the fact that the entire universe has basically been trying to do damage control since 2016

I go even farther back...i think WB deciding that MOS needs to be treated like Nolans Batman, was where things went wrong.
They wanted more of the reception from Nolans Trilogy...and made the wrong choices.

They didnt got what made Nolans Batman work for people and thought instead just that its the visuals and vibe of it that works.
Then they hired the wrong guy to get that.

I think everything leading up to hiring Snyder was already the completely wrong mindset.
And then came in Snyder, and it was over.

Like, even without WB interfering constantly, Snyder was simply the wrong person.
Just listen/read on how he feels about these characters...that man was more interested in a dark elseworld than anything else.

 

[titansupes]

Ben Affleck Batman lost Dick Grayson afterward he became darker starting to kill but changed his personality after his battle with Superman--

Literally all those images Drizzle posted are from after that scene.

 

[BobJM]

Firstly, Val I still contend is the most underrated of all time and people actually calling him even the same character as Clooney tells me that they haven't watched Batman Forever recently. Yes, it's Joel Schumacher, it's goofy.

But also like


Anybody saying this isn't genuinely peak Batman **** baffles me. You're entitled to that opinion. But it baffles me.

I still enjoy Batman Forever. To me, a lot of it feels like a live action adaptation of BTAS.

Drop the nipples from the Batsuits, cast a younger Dick Grayson (sorry Chris O’Donnell), and dial down Tommy Lee Jones’s performance and the movie cooks. It’s a fun mid-90s blockbuster

Unfortunately, Batman & Robin slaughtered any goodwill from Forever.

 

[Herofan]

Bale Batman from just the first film, or maybe the first film and 3/4ths of TDK, is pretty comics accurate but you can't really, shouldn't ignore the rest.

I go even farther back...i think WB deciding that MOS needs to be treated like Nolans Batman, was where things went wrong.
They wanted more of the reception from Nolans Trilogy...

I think particularly that Michael Shannon was shocked, probably still is pretty shocked that his performance in Man of Steel wasn't as widely loved or praised as Ledger's in TDK. More generally for the movies it's an interesting conundrum that people do love that kind of dark approach for Batman, and Batman playing a pretty leading role for the whole DC universe, but not so much applying that approach to other characters in that universe. It's tough between audiences often rejecting both too dark or too light/goofy/silly, Marvel did generally find a right space between those in generally going snarky but DC comics and characters usually hasn't been and don't fit with that either.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too Adam West Batman was too funny Michael Keaton Batman killed his villains Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0 Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives in the comics Batman is a member of the Justice League he does not kill he is a street hero but also fights aliens in the canon Batman lives in the same world as Superman is a shame what Zack Snyder did to Ben Affleck Batman he had a lot of potential if only they had stuck to the comics canon

So Batman?

 

[The Batman]

Lets be honest all the live action Batman movies can be classified as elseworlds stories too

Not 1943 Film Serial Batman. He's not that much different from 1940s comic Batman.

Adam West Batman was too funny

Adam West Batman was only funny in the sense that he was dead serious, and that verged into comedic territory. That being said, he's much truer to a canon version of the character than any of his successors, IMO.

Val Kilmer and George Clooney Batman was Adam West 2.0

This is lazy. Neither Kilmer nor Clooney have much in common with West. Especially Kilmer.

Christian Bale Batman was only Batman for one year he semi retired for 8 years returned to defeat Bane and retired again forever

It's funny how you rattled off a bunch surface level things that aren't that relevant to how true Bale is to the character.

Robert Pattinson Batman is more of a detective

Tell me you don't know much about Batman without telling me you don't know much about Batman.

Ben Affleck Batman at least in action is the Batman who is more comic book accurate in live action at least until the DCU Batman arrives

The Batman who murders people left and right and plotted to kill Superman is the most comic book accurate?

 

[titansupes]

Where did the DCEU go wrong? A story in four acts:

Superman To Get the Dark Knight Treatment

SCOOP: Zack Snyder Directing ‘Superman’

David S. Goyer Recalls WB And DC's "Crazy" Attempt To Catch Up To The MCU: "This Is Not How You Build A House"

A Disastrous Justice League Sends Warner Bros. into a Panic

 

[Mani-Man]

I still enjoy Batman Forever. To me, a lot of it feels like a live action adaptation of BTAS.

Drop the nipples from the Batsuits, cast a younger Dick Grayson (sorry Chris O’Donnell), and dial down Tommy Lee Jones’s performance and the movie cooks. It’s a fun mid-90s blockbuster

Unfortunately, Batman & Robin slaughtered any goodwill from Forever.

Batman Forever is if you look at it on Paper...the best Batman movie made.
Like, ignore the performances and stuff...just the basics of that movie...it sounds incredible.
And hell, the stuff Schumacher actually shot, is incredible strong.
The Initial cut he had, sounds on all accounts like a incredible good movie.

Its a damn shame that WB got cold feet and turned it into this wacky movie.
The Conflict of Bruce with himself, Dick Graysons introduction, Riddler and Two Face teaming up etc...absolutely good stuff.
And even on a visual level it has many very cool shots.
It is why i so want to see the Schumacher version of this Movie...because the stuff we saw over the years, shows a incredible movie that as usual was held back by Studio interference.

Bale Batman from just the first film, or maybe the first film and 3/4ths of TDK, is pretty comics accurate but you can't really, shouldn't ignore the rest.



I think particularly that Michael Shannon was shocked, probably still is pretty shocked that his performance in Man of Steel wasn't as widely loved or praised as Ledger's in TDK. More generally for the movies it's an interesting conundrum that people do love that kind of dark approach for Batman, and Batman playing a pretty leading role for the whole DC universe, but not so much applying that approach to other characters in that universe. It's tough between audiences often rejecting both too dark or too light/goofy/silly, Marvel did generally find a right space between those in generally going snarky but DC comics and characters usually hasn't been and don't fit with that either.

Batman Begins to me is still the best Batman Nolan movie.
It had the visuals down and felt really good.
TDK is a bit of a mixed bag to me, because you can tell that Nolan tried to ground it more and more as the minutes went by...and i hate the grounded approach to Comic Book characters.

I think Shannons performance is one of the strongest in the Movie, but there was never any way he could be on the same level as Ledgers Joker.
For that he just had the wrong guy directing him.
WB has a problem with finding the right tone for the stuff way too often.
Either its too dark or too silly...but that is why you should let directors cook.
Let these people in charge make what they feel is right and trust the process.
By now everyone at WB should understand that...hopefully.

Where did the DCEU go wrong? A story in four acts:

Superman To Get the Dark Knight Treatment

SCOOP: Zack Snyder Directing ‘Superman’

David S. Goyer Recalls WB And DC's "Crazy" Attempt To Catch Up To The MCU: "This Is Not How You Build A House"

A Disastrous Justice League Sends Warner Bros. into a Panic

I dont know if its a story that has Four acts.
I feel the Justice League movie didnt really blow too many holes into this.
By the time they started shooting that, i feel the ship was already beyond help.

Im more surprised that the DCEU managed to hold on for 5 years after that.
We got 10 movies after the thing came out...its crazy.

 

[Frodo]

I still enjoy Batman Forever. To me, a lot of it feels like a live action adaptation of BTAS.

Drop the nipples from the Batsuits, cast a younger Dick Grayson (sorry Chris O’Donnell), and dial down Tommy Lee Jones’s performance and the movie cooks. It’s a fun mid-90s blockbuster

Unfortunately, Batman & Robin slaughtered any goodwill from Forever.

Totally agree.
In fact, one of the reasons I enjoyed the film so much at the time of it's release, was because Kilmer's Batman , imo , was the closet to the Conroy Batman , in live action.

I think in a alot of fans younger fans don't appreciate just how popular Batman Forever was when it was released.

I remember when the first trailer aired on the TV show Extra ! ,here in LA , viewers called into the program, and asked them to reshow it .



While it didn't have an 89 or TDK- style, cultural event aspect , the film was a big hit, and Kiss From A Rose was on the radio and MTV all the time that summer.

It was a different time and context to be sure, and not the mid 00s of the Nolan trilogy, or the 2020s of Reeves .

But , in the context of the 90s , it was a fun time at the movies.