Who can/cannot beat Goku??

[LouFerignoDemon]

All Im trying to say is that Veggeto is a better fusion the Gohan and Goku.

Super Buu w/Gotenks>Gohan
SuperBuu w/Gotenks>Goku
SuperBuu w/Gotenks> Vegeta
Right?

Now at that time Gohan was stronger then both Vegeta and Goku.
And Buu was stronger then them all so pretty much when Buu absorbed Gohan and Goku and vegeta fused it was the two weaker fighters vs the two stronger fighters combined.

And in the end the two weaker base forms won.


Do you understand what Im trying to say?

The only way that would work, is if Buu's fusion process and outcome result was identical to the earring fusion. And that would also have to be identical to the dance version.

 

[Gotenks]

Does it really matter all its doing in the end is combining the strengths of the two together.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, are they combined, multiplied, combined or augmented at certain levels?

I doubt it's simply just one plus the other. Especially given Gotenks' power level.

 

[Sloth7d]

But remember, Gohan was half saiyan, half human. He was more powerful than Vegeta, also.

But with the Vegetto fusion with Goku isn't based strictly around power. If that was the case then Vegetto(being a ssj3 and ssj2 combined) would be well weaker than a (guy who was already stronger than a ssj3 added on with a guy who is also stronger, three people on the level of ssj1, and fatbuu whos is a little below ssj3). But that wasn't the case. Their rivalry bonus or whatever somehow put their powerlevels through the roof. Making it so that their ssj1 or ssj2(whichever it was) form could toy with a being who had the power already above ssj3 with added powers of someone also above ssj3, and fatbuu whos a little weaker than a ssj3. And he could do that with minimum effort. And if Vegetto decided to actually try or (even more shocking) go ssj3, who knows what would happen.

 

[Sloth7d]

Well, are they combined, multiplied, combined or augmented at certain levels?

I doubt it's simply just one plus the other. Especially given Gotenks' power level.

But that would just add to my point that Vegetto would still be stronger than Buu despite absorbing another ssj3 level character.

 

[Warhammer]

But with the Vegetto fusion with Goku isn't based strictly around power. If that was the case then Vegetto(being a ssj3 and ssj2 combined) would be well weaker than a (guy who was already stronger than a ssj3 added on with a guy who is also stronger, three people on the level of ssj1, and fatbuu whos is a little below ssj3). But that wasn't the case. Their rivalry bonus or whatever somehow put their powerlevels through the roof. Making it so that their ssj1 or ssj2(whichever it was) form could toy with a being who had the power already above ssj3 with added powers of someone also above ssj3, and fatbuu whos a little weaker than a ssj3. And he could do that with minimum effort. And if Vegetto decided to actually try or (even more shocking) go ssj3, who knows what would happen.

Impossible.
Vegeta would have to be SSJ3 for that to happen.
Maybe the rivalry bonus is something, but still....

Goku and Gohan had a nice relationship, too.
They were father and son, having the tightest relationship of all.
Gohan being half and half didn't hurt, either. Especially since Gohan was full potential, which is still considered his base form, imagine how powerful the base form of their fusion would've been.

...all speculation.
This should've been in the DB thread.

 

[Gotenks]

Well, are they combined, multiplied, combined or augmented at certain levels?

I doubt it's simply just one plus the other. Especially given Gotenks' power level.

Trunks had to lower his power level just to fuse with Goten so Im sure that means something.
But I see your point.

 

[Gotenks]

Impossible.
Vegeta would have to be SSJ3 for that to happen.
Maybe the rivalry bonus is something, but still....

Goku and Gohan had a nice relationship, too.
They were father and son, having the tightest relationship of all.
Gohan being half and half didn't hurt, either. Especially since Gohan was full potential, which is still considered his base form, imagine how powerful the base form of their fusion would've been.

...all speculation.
This should've been in the DB thread.

Yeah, but I think even tho that was his base form that was still his full potential like you said. Why would he go SSJ1 or 2 when he was losing agaiinst buu. I dont think its impossible for them to of went SSJ3. Veggeto was doing some moves that each of them couldnt do by themselves. So its a possibilty.

 

[Warhammer]

Yeah, but you have to take into an account that it's a fusion.
Powers have to be similar and acquired by both.
Vegetto is 50/50 Goku and Vegeta. You can't have half of you turning into a SSJ3 when the other can't......A SSJ2.5? If Vegeta could go SSJ3, then yeah, but he didn't.

In Gotenks case, he went SSJ3 for an odd reason, but Goten and Trunks were near the same power level. If Goku didn't have the SSJ3 ability, then of course Vegetto could've done it, but because of Vegeta...

 

[Captain Kirk]

What is that in your avatar, Warhammer? It looks sweet!

 

[Warhammer]

It's Vincent from Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children.
It was a movie sequel to the game, Final Fantasy VII.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah, but you have to take into an account that it's a fusion.
Powers have to be similar and acquired by both.
Vegetto is 50/50 Goku and Vegeta. You can't have half of you turning into a SSJ3 when the other can't......A SSJ2.5? If Vegeta could go SSJ3, then yeah, but he didn't.

In Gotenks case, he went SSJ3 for an odd reason, but Goten and Trunks were near the same power level. If Goku didn't have the SSJ3 ability, then of course Vegetto could've done it, but because of Vegeta...

I thought there was inbetween SSJ levels, like when Vegeta and Trunks with their fight with Cell, they had an augmented power level, but it wasn't quite level two.

 

[Warhammer]

^I believe in in-between SSJ levels, too, but some posters here disagree with that. Wikpedia seems to clarify everything that I think about SSJ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_saiyan

 

[The Leaguer]

It's Vincent from Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children.
It was a movie sequel to the game, Final Fantasy VII.

I actually thought nothing could suck harder than Final Fantasy VII, and then Square came out with that movie and proved me wrong.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I thought you loved emo?

 

[The Leaguer]

Not the first time you were wrong.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I just figured because you love Kyle and all...

 

[The Leaguer]

I do, but you said emo, not Kyle. They're polar opposites.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

If that's what it takes for you to not have a mental breakdown.

 

[Sloth7d]

Impossible.
Vegeta would have to be SSJ3 for that to happen.
Maybe the rivalry bonus is something, but still....

Its not impossible, or Gotenks wouldn't be able to do it. There should be no doubt in anyones mind that Vegetto can go ssj3. And even in his Super form, it didn't look like Vegetto was using even half his power.

Goku and Gohan had a nice relationship, too.
They were father and son, having the tightest relationship of all.
Gohan being half and half didn't hurt, either. Especially since Gohan was full potential, which is still considered his base form, imagine how powerful the base form of their fusion would've been.

...all speculation.
This should've been in the DB thread.

Old kai never mentioned anything about being in a happy relationship giving the fusion a bonus. Just that being rivals made it more complete. Making me believe that rivals will always make the strongest fusion.

 

[Sloth7d]

Yeah, but you have to take into an account that it's a fusion.
Powers have to be similar and acquired by both.
Vegetto is 50/50 Goku and Vegeta. You can't have half of you turning into a SSJ3 when the other can't......A SSJ2.5? If Vegeta could go SSJ3, then yeah, but he didn't.

Again not true. Or Gotenks would be able to go SSJ3. It was also never stated that if one fusionpartner can't do a move, then the fusion itself can't do it. The fusion adds together the knowledge of both partners, meaning if Goku knows how to turn SSJ3 then Vegetto does too.

In Gotenks case, he went SSJ3 for an odd reason, but Goten and Trunks were near the same power level.

But if neither one of them could go ssj3 before fusion, then by your explanation Gotenks shouldn't be able to do it. There was nothing odd about them going ssj3. They were extremely powerful and thus able to reach a new level.

If Goku didn't have the SSJ3 ability, then of course Vegetto could've done it, but because of Vegeta...

That doesn't make sense.
Knowledge of both fighters, added on to the fact that Vegetto is beyond strong enough to reach that level=Vegetto can go SSJ3. He just didn't need to against Buu.

 

[Captain Kirk]

I thought there was inbetween SSJ levels, like when Vegeta and Trunks with their fight with Cell, they had an augmented power level, but it wasn't quite level two.

This what I have been wondering about SSJ 3! The first Super Saiya-jin stage that Goku reached it took him a while to master it to it's full potential. I believe that the same is true for SSJ 3! I would have loved for DBZ to have continued after the Buu saga (not that crappy GT or Pink Panther saiya-jins) so we could see SSJ 3 at full power. And let Gohan keep his Mystic power-up as well!t:

 

[Gotenks]

Sloth speaks the truth.

 

[Warhammer]

Its not impossible, or Gotenks wouldn't be able to do it. There should be no doubt in anyones mind that Vegetto can go ssj3. And even in his Super form, it didn't look like Vegetto was using even half his power.

I'll give my explanation on the bottom.

Old kai never mentioned anything about being in a happy relationship giving the fusion a bonus. Just that being rivals made it more complete. Making me believe that rivals will always make the strongest fusion.

Opinion.

Again not true. Or Gotenks would be able to go SSJ3. It was also never stated that if one fusionpartner can't do a move, then the fusion itself can't do it. The fusion adds together the knowledge of both partners, meaning if Goku knows how to turn SSJ3 then Vegetto does too.

I always thought that both partners needed to be near equal for a fusion, hence why Vegetto probably couldn't go SSJ3. It's all speculation, though. No fact whatsoever.

But if neither one of them could go ssj3 before fusion, then by your explanation Gotenks shouldn't be able to do it. There was nothing odd about them going ssj3. They were extremely powerful and thus able to reach a new level.

I thought that because Trunks and Goten were near equal, they fused, but became SSJ3 while they were Gotenks. (They trained as Gotenks in the Time Chamber in order to reach SSJ3). Not dismissing that Vegetto possibly couldn't, but at the same time, I think that Vegetto could've done it, powering himself (fusion) up to that level. Not because of Goku's ability to go SSJ3.

That doesn't make sense.
Knowledge of both fighters, added on to the fact that Vegetto is beyond strong enough to reach that level=Vegetto can go SSJ3. He just didn't need to against Buu.

We don't know for sure. I'm not dismissing it, but that is not stone cold fact. We don't know if Vegetto was strong enough to reach SSJ3 anyway. He was enormously powerful as a SSJ2, but it is technical, like how regular Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goten. We don't know if Vegetto was strong enough to reach his level of SSJ3, but it was possible. Again, we don't have stone cold fact.

Akira Toriyama should just write a DBZ almanac for everything that we speculate about. Also, this should so be in the Dragon Ball forum. It would be nice conversation to look back on in the right thread.

 

[Sloth7d]

Opinion.

Its not an opinion. Thats what he said. Rivalry makes the fusion more complete, not family values.

I always thought that both partners needed to be near equal for a fusion, hence why Vegetto probably couldn't go SSJ3. It's all speculation, though. No fact whatsoever.

But thats only for fusion dance. Remember potara fusion doesn't require that.
And well, outside of the SSJ3 transformation they were equal. And they both fused in their base forms putting them at equal power at the time of fusion. Its just like how Trunks had to lower his power to fuse with Goten. And they were able to make SSJ3, so why not Vegetto?

I thought that because Trunks and Goten were near equal, they fused, but became SSJ3 while they were Gotenks. (They trained as Gotenks in the Time Chamber in order to reach SSJ3). Not dismissing that Vegetto possibly couldn't, but at the same time, I think that Vegetto could've done it, powering himself (fusion) up to that level. Not because of Goku's ability to go SSJ3.

Well, Piccolo didn't even know they could go SSJ3, so I'm not sure if they aquired the move through training. Infact, he didn't even know they could go ssj from base form. I always thought Gotenks going SSJ3 was just something spontaneous he did because he was just that powerful.
And like I said, Oldkai did say fusion combines the abilities of both people into one fighter. Theres no reason that Vegetto couldn't go SSJ3.

We don't know for sure. I'm not dismissing it, but that is not stone cold fact. We don't know if Vegetto was strong enough to reach SSJ3 anyway.

Oh, come on. We know more than definately he was more than strong enough to achieve the level. I thought we were just arguing over the possibility of him being able to do it because only one fusion partner had the ability.

He was enormously powerful as a SSJ2, but it is technical, like how regular Gohan is stronger than SSJ Goten.

Which explains why Gohan can reach SSJ2 and Goten can't.

We don't know if Vegetto was strong enough to reach his level of SSJ3, but it was possible. Again, we don't have stone cold fact.

Come on man. We definately know he was strong enough. Vegetto is stronger than 10 Gokus, and Goku can go SSJ3. But your right about one thing. Its not a stone cold fact. But thats only because their wasn't an enemy around strong enough to even push Vegetto to even use the full effects of his superform.

Akira Toriyama should just write a DBZ almanac for everything that we speculate about. Also, this should so be in the Dragon Ball forum. It would be nice conversation to look back on in the right thread.

Yes, we should. And yeah, AT sort of left everone high and dry. Otherwise arguments like this and other ones wouldn't exist. But its not totally his fault. He didn't even want to do DBZ past the frieza arc. But he was forced to and in effect started to hate dbz himself. I remember an interveiw where he saids he is trying to forget about DBZ and everything involved with it.