Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version)

[ShadowBoxer]

Venom deserves to have a proper movie. Spider Man 3 was a middle finger to venom fans as Rami hated the chracter and was forced by studio execs to put Venom in the movie.

 

[Shikamaru]

Agreed. And while I'm still giving Deadpool a fair chance with its PG13, a Venom movie absolutely HAS to be rated R. It doesn't need to be a total Saw gore fest of course, but if they have a villain like Carnage, that certainly makes something a little more brutal necessary than PG13 can offer (as far as I know at least)

Venom you could get away with PG-13.

Carnage, no way. You either have to water him down or contrive a narrative in which he wouldn't be around a lot of people.

 

[JOE]

Venom you could get away with PG-13.

Carnage, no way. You either have to water him down or contrive a narrative in which he wouldn't be around a lot of people.

There would be a ton of "cut to black" scenes right before he slashes into someone. That's about the only way I could see them using Carnage.

 

[Shikamaru]

Even then, you can't show the bodies.

 

[JOE]

Even then, you can't show the bodies.

It's implied what happens. Like the Lizard in the deleted TASM scene. Regardless, you'd need to stretch the limits as far as they'll go.

 

[Spider2099]

Well Deadpool is getting a PG-13 movie, so...

 

[I'm Batman.]

For me, if you want to set up Venom, this is how you do it:

Spidey 1 - Origin story
Spidey 2 - Peter in the black suit, introducing Brock in the process and setting up the tower scene.
Spidey 3 - Venom, maybe another villain for Spidey to go up against while Brock messes with his life from the shadows.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Venom you could get away with PG-13.

Carnage, no way. You either have to water him down or contrive a narrative in which he wouldn't be around a lot of people.

I think he meant a Venom solo film, with Flash going up against Carnage. That would definately be tough to fit into a PG-13 rating. It could be done, but a lot of people would be complaining.

 

[The Joker]

Once you write a valid reason for Eddy to hate Spidey/Peter, the story will be awesome, TSSM cartoon handled it pretty well imo

How will the story be awesome? Unless they give Venom a total rewrite which goes back to my previous point of what is the point of using a villain as a main protagonist if they have to rewrite them. Comic book Venom has one of the stupidest motives in comic book history. He's also one of the most overrated characters ever. Why is he considered a top Spidey villain, who some rank beside Goblin and Ock? Because he has similar powers to Spidey? Whoop dee doo. He know Spidey's identity? Big deal. What's he ever done with that? Stalk him? Scare MJ once? Pathetic and boring.

What did Goblin do when he learned Spidey's identity? Killed Gwen. What did Ock do when he found out Spidey's identity? Killed Peter himself and stole his body. That's not even counting all the other major stuff these guys did like Captain Stacy's death, hospitalizing Aunt May, making Peter and MJ lose their baby etc. Venom has never done anything that hard hitting.

Venom is a classic example of style over substance. A character who rose to popularity because of cool look and powers. Scratch that surface and there's not much underneath.

Also Venom is the only villain whose powers are so similar to Spidey, so the fight scenes would have the potential to be awesome

Shallow reasoning for using a villain. There's plenty more worthy villains who can offer equally visually compelling fight scenes.

Sounds more like you're arguing he is an unsympathetic character than his actual origin being stupid. He's always had a degree of scumbagginess to him, even in Ultimate and the media adaptations.

Not at all. Unsympathetic villains can be among the best. Check out who my username is based on. The definitive unsympathetic villain. My problem is the whole foundation of the Venom character is weak. When the basis of a feud between two characters hinges on vengeance, the reason for wanting vengeance should be solid. Venom's wasn't.

It's not a case of agreeing with the villain's point of view, it's being able to buy it. And Venom's was too ridiculous to be believable.

It's clear Venom became an afterthought after they already got rid of the black suit, so they tried to insert an origin for him as best as they could and didn't expand on it much (till later comics at least). In hindsight, they would have probably introduced Eddie Brock earlier and would have built him up better.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Marvel don't even know what to do with Venom. Never really have. After the constant stalk and fight Spidey routine got stale fast, they went the anti hero route, producing a plethora of symbiote themed villains to try and keep the concept fresh. That got old. So they start palming the symbiote off to everyone from The Scorpion to Flash Thompson.

 

[I'm Batman.]

How will the story be awesome? Unless they give Venom a total rewrite which goes back to my previous point of what is the point of using a villain as a main protagonist if they have to rewrite them. Comic book Venom has one of the stupidest motives in comic book history. He's also one of the most overrated characters ever. Why is he considered a top Spidey villain, who some rank beside Goblin and Ock? Because he has similar powers to Spidey? Whoop dee doo. He know Spidey's identity? Big deal. What's he ever done with that? Stalk him? Scare MJ once? Pathetic and boring.

Stupid motives, huh? I always appreciated the fact that Brock never had any domination schemes or anything of the ilk, he just hated Spider-Man for ruining his life, and Carnage likes to kill, because hey it's fun (Carnage's M.O. always reminded me of Joker's). What's good as a character is that Venom's motives don't make him bad, it's just personal for him.

 

[The Infernal]

Read another rumour about them possibly wanting Kingpin with Shocker as the villains. I like the idea since it would make sense that Kingpin would hire someone like Shocker to work for him. However this latest rumour also mentioned that Mysterio was also a possible villain which just seems like a bit of a head scratcher. I just picture Mysterio as a villain who would be best tackled solo so they could better develop his character and motivation. Plus three villains seems a bit counter-intuitive so I'm taking the rumour with a large pinch of salt, but I like the Kingpin & Shocker idea.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Even in his inception he was weak because his whole basis for hating Spider-Man is idiotic. Eddie Brock hates Spider-Man because Eddie published a news story about Sin Eater's identity that turned out to be false when Spidey caught the real Sin Eater. Brock got fired and his life went to crap, and he blames Spidey for that. All Spidey did was catch a serial killer. He didn't even know Eddie from Adam. They never met. Spidey was not an obstacle to Eddie writing a good honest news story.

When the basis for a hero vs villain feud is so weak and stupid, it just ruins it.

OK. That can be spiced up a bit, I agree. The 90s cartoon had a similar premise, but a much closer connection. If they draw from the 90s cartoon would anyone have the same objections they have now?

 

[CaptainWagner]

Stupid motives, huh? I always appreciated the fact that Brock never had any domination schemes or anything of the ilk, he just hated Spider-Man for ruining his life, and Carnage likes to kill, because hey it's fun (Carnage's M.O. always reminded me of Joker's). What's good as a character is that Venom's motives don't make him bad, it's just personal for him.

It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Joker and Carnage have similar motives.

Read another rumour about them possibly wanting Kingpin with Shocker as the villains. I like the idea since it would make sense that Kingpin would hire someone like Shocker to work for him. However this latest rumour also mentioned that Mysterio was also a possible villain which just seems like a bit of a head scratcher. I just picture Mysterio as a villain who would be best tackled solo so they could better develop his character and motivation. Plus three villains seems a bit counter-intuitive so I'm taking the rumour with a large pinch of salt, but I like the Kingpin & Shocker idea.

Huh. That's actually really similar to the plot I proposed for the movie. Marvel better not be stealing my ideas!

But seriously, Marvel, as long as it gets us Shocker and Mysterio on the big screen, go right ahead. And while you're at it, cast Enrico Colantoni and Ariel Winter as Captain and Gwen Stacy. t:

 

[Mike Murdock]

Carnage and Joker might be similar, but there are differences. For starters, the Joker wants chaos, Carnage really just wants to kill because he's a serial killer. Second, the Joker has a little more pizzazz in what he does. He'll kill with a theme or a joke, Carnage just tends to kill.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Read another rumour about them possibly wanting Kingpin with Shocker as the villains. I like the idea since it would make sense that Kingpin would hire someone like Shocker to work for him. However this latest rumour also mentioned that Mysterio was also a possible villain which just seems like a bit of a head scratcher. I just picture Mysterio as a villain who would be best tackled solo so they could better develop his character and motivation. Plus three villains seems a bit counter-intuitive so I'm taking the rumour with a large pinch of salt, but I like the Kingpin & Shocker idea.

I wonder in that case if they go with Herman Schultz or Montana (ala Spectacular Spider-Man).

 

[The Joker]

Stupid motives, huh? I always appreciated the fact that Brock never had any domination schemes or anything of the ilk, he just hated Spider-Man for ruining his life, and Carnage likes to kill, because hey it's fun (Carnage's M.O. always reminded me of Joker's). What's good as a character is that Venom's motives don't make him bad, it's just personal for him.

It's not about having domination schemes (most Spidey villains don't try those kinds of plots, only megalomaniacs like Doc Ock, or powerful crime lords like Kingpin do), it's just about having a good motive, especially when it involves revenge against the hero. You need to have a solid foundation to that. You need to have a solid foundation for any motive that drives a character. Imagine Peter became Spider-Man because Flash Thompson gave him a wedgie or stole his lunch money. We wouldn't be able to take Spidey seriously as a hero.

Carnage's M.O. is nothing like Joker's. Joker doesn't go around randomly slaughtering people just because it's fun. Joker carries out elaborate plans. He has crazy motivations and beliefs that fuel his insane schemes.

Compare Joker's most famous story (The Killing Joke) to Carnage's most famous story (Maximum Carnage). Joker cripples Barbara Gordon by shooting her in the spine, in front of her father, then strips her naked and takes photos of her. He then abducts Gordon, and tries to drive him crazy at his freaky amusement park (he even shows Gordon the horrid photos he took of Barbara naked and bleeding on the floor). It was all to prove that deep down everyone is as bad as him when push comes to shove. That all it takes is one bad day to drive someone as crazy as he is. The Dark Knight used that as a big inspiration for the movie.

Now lets look at Maximum Carnage. 12 straight issues of Carnage and his crazy posse (Shriek, Doppleganger etc) just randomly wandering around New York killing people for kicks. There's no story there. No depth. It's a classic example of the symbiote villains. All style and no substance.

 

[Shikamaru]

Not at all. Unsympathetic villains can be among the best. Check out who my username is based on. The definitive unsympathetic villain. My problem is the whole foundation of the Venom character is weak. When the basis of a feud between two characters hinges on vengeance, the reason for wanting vengeance should be solid. Venom's wasn't.

It's not a case of agreeing with the villain's point of view, it's being able to buy it. And Venom's was too ridiculous to be believable.

What about it is ridiculous? Eddie Brock has always been the type of guy to not take responsibility in his actions and blame his problem on others. I'm able to buy that a guy like that would blame Spider-Man. I've seen people in real life do it for far more miniscule things.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Marvel don't even know what to do with Venom. Never really have. After the constant stalk and fight Spidey routine got stale fast, they went the anti hero route, producing a plethora of symbiote themed villains to try and keep the concept fresh. That got old. So they start palming the symbiote off to everyone from The Scorpion to Flash Thompson.

Agreed.

I find Venom to be a character with very little longevity. I loved the 80's slasher take McFarlane was going for in his first few appearances, but he hasn't been interesting since then.

I'm hearing good things about Flash Thompson Venom but haven't read it.

 

[The Joker]

What about it is ridiculous? Eddie Brock has always been the type of guy to not take responsibility in his actions and blame his problem on others. I'm able to buy that a guy like that would blame Spider-Man. I've seen people in real life do it for far more miniscule things.

I'm not saying it's ridiculous for someone to put the blame on someone else for their own self made problems. I mean that's fairly common. It's ridiculous in Venom's case because he's not just blaming someone else, he's blaming someone else he doesn't and who doesn't know him, and he launches a murderous vendetta against a guy who simply caught a serial killer. Someone he never met before in his life. Someone who was not an obstacle in his way for writing a proper news story instead of the misinformed fake one that got him sacked. That is not a basis for a great vengeance feud.

It would have made more sense for him to go after the guy who gave him the false information. Or his editor for sacking him over it. Anyone except Spider-Man.

Think of the best hero vs villain/vengeance feuds in comic book lore, or fiction in general. They always are built on a great back story. A solid motivation. Because that's what makes them credible and great. You're sold on this feud because it's all running off a great premise. Lets look at an example close to home; the Harry Green Goblin vengeance feud with Spidey. He wants Peter dead because he thinks he killed his father. Very easy to buy Harry's thirst for revenge based on a motive like that.

Btw have you noticed that in every adaption of Venom they have corrected that one flaw of the lack of connection between Eddie and Spidey before they become enemies? SSM cartoon, 90's cartoon, even Spider-Man 3 all had them know each other, a connection between them either on a personal or professional level.

Agreed.

I find Venom to be a character with very little longevity. I loved the 80's slasher take McFarlane was going for in his first few appearances, but he hasn't been interesting since then.

I'm hearing good things about Flash Thompson Venom but haven't read it.

Likewise. Even people who don't care for Venom much have been saying this whole Agent Venom thing has been pretty decent so far.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Scorpion and Vulture for the first movie.

Mysterio and Shocker for the second.

Kraven and Lizard for the third.

 

[I'm Batman.]

It's not about having domination schemes (most Spidey villains don't try those kinds of plots, only megalomaniacs like Doc Ock, or powerful crime lords like Kingpin do), it's just about having a good motive, especially when it involves revenge against the hero. You need to have a solid foundation to that. You need to have a solid foundation for any motive that drives a character. Imagine Peter became Spider-Man because Flash Thompson gave him a wedgie or stole his lunch money. We wouldn't be able to take Spidey seriously as a hero.

Carnage's M.O. is nothing like Joker's. Joker doesn't go around randomly slaughtering people just because it's fun. Joker carries out elaborate plans. He has crazy motivations and beliefs that fuel his insane schemes.

Compare Joker's most famous story (The Killing Joke) to Carnage's most famous story (Maximum Carnage). Joker cripples Barbara Gordon by shooting her in the spine, in front of her father, then strips her naked and takes photos of her. He then abducts Gordon, and tries to drive him crazy at his freaky amusement park (he even shows Gordon the horrid photos he took of Barbara naked and bleeding on the floor). It was all to prove that deep down everyone is as bad as him when push comes to shove. That all it takes is one bad day to drive someone as crazy as he is. The Dark Knight used that as a big inspiration for the movie.

Now lets look at Maximum Carnage. 12 straight issues of Carnage and his crazy posse (Shriek, Doppleganger etc) just randomly wandering around New York killing people for kicks. There's no story there. No depth. It's a classic example of the symbiote villains. All style and no substance.

I like Joker, but there isn't more to him than killing people for no reason. Oh well, an overrated villain for an overrated super hero.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Agreed. And while I'm still giving Deadpool a fair chance with its PG13, a Venom movie absolutely HAS to be rated R. It doesn't need to be a total Saw gore fest of course, but if they have a villain like Carnage, that certainly makes something a little more brutal necessary than PG13 can offer (as far as I know at least)

They should make atleast 2 successful Spider-man movies (both Critically and Commercially) before they even think of Spin-offs

 

[Morbius]

I thought I was an odd duck hoping for Mysterio, so imagine my surprise when I see he's winning the poll by a landslide, haha. I've been dying to see this character in live-action for over 20 years now. It's time!

It would be a good way to get new Spidey's backstory with flashes of Uncle Ben's /Gwen's death using Mysterios' abilities. Doesn't have to take long, it can be all done in a very quick sequence like the title sequence in The Incredible Hulk movie, then move on. We might just see the back of Gwen's head, and a flash of gunfire, then a dead Uncle Ben, etc.

 

[Spiderdevil]

For me, if you want to set up Venom, this is how you do it:

Spidey 1 - Origin story
Spidey 2 - Peter in the black suit, introducing Brock in the process and setting up the tower scene.
Spidey 3 - Venom, maybe another villain for Spidey to go up against while Brock messes with his life from the shadows.

Perfect
But the Symbiote's introduction should be believable, not the-only-Superhero-in-town-making-out-with-my-gf-and-a-meteor-managed-to-land-just-there type intoduction

 

[Spiderdevil]

How will the story be awesome? Unless they give Venom a total rewrite which goes back to my previous point of what is the point of using a villain as a main protagonist if they have to rewrite them. Comic book Venom has one of the stupidest motives in comic book history. He's also one of the most overrated characters ever. Why is he considered a top Spidey villain, who some rank beside Goblin and Ock? Because he has similar powers to Spidey? Whoop dee doo. He know Spidey's identity? Big deal. What's he ever done with that? Stalk him? Scare MJ once? Pathetic and boring.

We don't need a complete rewrite, I gave TSSM's example, they gave him believable motives all the while staying true to his basic personality, its no more different than what they did with say Bane in TDKR. Just give valid reasons on why he hates Peter/Spidey

That's the thing with Venom,he is not one-dimensional evil, he doesn't have to be complete anger, he is kind of a sadist/prankster, pissing Spidey off, scaring him and playing mind games. He is a complete anti-spidey

TSSM's Venom and the Venom in Spider-man 1 PS1 game is what I have in mind

We have already seen Goblin 3 times and Ock once, we have seen Lizard too so we have enough of mad-scientist going Villain

What did Goblin do when he learned Spidey's identity? Killed Gwen. What did Ock do when he found out Spidey's identity? Killed Peter himself and stole his body. That's not even counting all the other major stuff these guys did like Captain Stacy's death, hospitalizing Aunt May, making Peter and MJ lose their baby etc. Venom has never done anything that hard hitting.

Goblin's ship/Gwen's death has already gone past, and you don't really wanna see Doc Ock stealing Peter's body in a movie, we are still far off from MJ being pregnant, Stacy's death has already been done

You don't get the point, we shouldnt debate on who is the ultimate Spider-man villain, we need to see who we can put on the big screen without being repeatitive and Kingpin,Kraven,Shocker,Mysterio and Venom top the list for me, the former 4 can be used in the first movie while Venom ill be in the sequels

It's not a case of agreeing with the villain's point of view, it's being able to buy it. And Venom's was too ridiculous to be believable.

Seriously it isn't that hard giving him believable motives and it isn't a 'total rewrite' like you are saying

 

[Spiderdevil]

Read another rumour about them possibly wanting Kingpin with Shocker as the villains. I like the idea since it would make sense that Kingpin would hire someone like Shocker to work for him. However this latest rumour also mentioned that Mysterio was also a possible villain which just seems like a bit of a head scratcher. I just picture Mysterio as a villain who would be best tackled solo so they could better develop his character and motivation. Plus three villains seems a bit counter-intuitive so I'm taking the rumour with a large pinch of salt, but I like the Kingpin & Shocker idea.

Wonderful!
I have been wanting Kingpin + Shocker in a Spider-man origin movie since ages!

I doubt they would go for 3 villains, they must have learned their leason after SM3 and TASM2