Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version)

[Spider2099]

I think Joker meant--and correct me if I'm wrong--that Kraven wouldn't be able to stand on his own as a main villain. He should be accompanied by another baddie to make the movie more interesting.

 

[JOE]

I think Joker meant--and correct me if I'm wrong--that Kraven wouldn't be able to stand on his own as a main villain. He should be accompanied by another baddie to make the movie more interesting.

My take on it: The Joker thinks the movie requires a villain a bit more visually stimulating. Not as a substitute, but an addition to Kraven. I.E having Kraven and Mysterio in the same movie. You need something to market that really "wows" the audience visually. Showcasing a fist fight can only do so much. With Mysterio as an example, the marketing/trailers/clips are limitless. And that's not to say Kraven isn't "marketable" because he certainly is. Just not in the way villains like Mysterio would be.

 

[The Joker]

The Joker, you seriously think Spidey vs Kraven would be boring to watch? What the actual ****? Since when is one-on-one well choreographed fistfight is boring? Since the days of great Bruce Lee people loved fistfights. So you don't like them? Well, then it makes it a matter of opinion I guess. Man, you must've really hated the final Gobby battle from SM1 lol.
I recommend you watch Raid: Redemption to appreciate just how entertaining fisticuffs can be.

For the umpteenth time I'm saying that a Spider-Man movie could not be made up solely of just fist fight action scenes. Not in a million years. One or two would be great, but all action scenes just being punch ups one would be boring for a Spider-Man movie because, and what I am saying here is a fact not an opinion, audiences expect big spectacle eye candy action scenes from the fight scenes with the villains in these movies. So do the comic book fans, including myself. Kraven cannot provide that. A great one on one punch up scene definitely, but nothing more. His character is not physically equipped for it. He's a jungle man using jungle weapons. He'd never be able to deliver an action scene equivalent to the Ock train fight, or the Sandman subway fight, or any of the other big visual epic Spidey villain fights we've had.

The final Goblin fight in Spider-Man 1 came after several Goblin gliding, pumpkin bombing, action filled scenes. All their fight scenes were not just the two of them pummeling each other one on one. That's why Kraven needs another villain with him to provide that.

I am telling you here and now that there will NEVER be a Spider-Man movie made up of just fisticuffs fighting between Spidey and the villains for those reasons. You can take that as a fact. Anyone who believes otherwise is just kidding themselves.

Understand what I'm saying now? Fisticuff fight scenes are great when done right, but not as the only brand of villain fight scenes for a Spider-Man movie.

I think Joker meant--and correct me if I'm wrong--that Kraven would be able to stand on his own as a main villain. But he should be accompanied by another baddie to make the movie more visually interesting.

Slight correction there. I think Kraven could be the main villain of the movie. His character is strong enough for that. But the solo villain, no way, because he can't provide the epic visual action that Spidey movies have always had, and always will have.

My take on it: The Joker thinks the movie requires a villain a bit more visually stimulating. Not as a substitute, but an addition to Kraven. I.E having Kraven and Mysterio in the same movie. You need something to market that really "wows" the audience visually. Showcasing a fist fight can only do so much. With Mysterio as an example, the marketing/trailers/clips are limitless. And that's not to say Kraven isn't "marketable" because he certainly is. Just not in the way villains like Mysterio would be.

 

[Keehar]

After the shambles of The Amazing Spider-Man franchise, which really made a dog's dinner out the villains in particular, Marvel would be smart to start with one of the big guns to win faith back in the franchise. I'd go with Doc Ock. He's a top fan favourite, he has not been used since 2004, and the regular audiences all know and love him too.

Most of the other choices have a snag. Too soon to do The Lizard or a Goblin again after they've just been in the last couple of movies. Same deal with Electro, and he's no good as a main villain anyways I don't think. Too soon to do the symbiote and Venom because that needs proper developing. Kraven and Kingpin are too visually boring to be on their own so back them up with someone else who can bring the blaze of glory to the action parts. How about Kraven hunting Scorpion and Spider-Man. Kingpin bankrolls the creation of Scorpion instead of Jameson to kill Spider-Man. But save that for the sequel so Spider-Man can get himself a rep as a crime stopper who gets on Kingpin's nerves.

I've no interest in Vulture. I think he's boring as a villain and in action. Shocker is a muscle villain like Rhino. They could go in any movie as C-villains. Pass on Morbius because vampires we don't need. Sandman could come back as a secondary villain to some brain villain. I see Mysterio is winning the poll. Why is that then? What's the great idea for a movie story with him?

 

[CaptainWagner]

Kraven paired with the symbiote story and a secondary, more "visually interesting" villain, would have no trouble selling.

And, Keehar, here's my proposed role for Mysterio: He's a "visionary" criminal, who sees that the future of crime in the Marvel world is in theatrics. He takes out a contract from the Kingpin to commit a series of "impossible" heists and provide the quota for astounding visual effects that are associated with Spiderman.

 

[ironwez20]

I'm thinking shocker or Scorpian. Scorpion is pretty much the first super villian spidey fought

 

[Quasimod0]

Mysterio, paired with another villain like Kraven or Vulture.

 

[The Joker]

Kraven and Kingpin are too visually boring to be on their own so back them up with someone else who can bring the blaze of glory to the action parts. How about Kraven hunting Scorpion and Spider-Man. Kingpin bankrolls the creation of Scorpion instead of Jameson to kill Spider-Man. But save that for the sequel so Spider-Man can get himself a rep as a crime stopper who gets on Kingpin's nerves.

Kraven paired with the symbiote story and a secondary, more "visually interesting" villain, would have no trouble selling

Mysterio, paired with another villain like Kraven or Vulture.

[YT]aTM_Zb6g2j0[/YT]

I'm thinking shocker or Scorpian. Scorpion is pretty much the first super villian spidey fought

The Scorpion wasn't the first super villain Spidey fought. Not even close. The Vulture was his first super powered enemy he fought in ASM #2. I don't count Chameleon in ASM #1 since he doesn't have super powers. He is just a master of disguise.

The Scorpion didn't show up until ASM #20, and by then Spidey had already fought Ock, Goblin, Lizard, Sandman, Vulture, Electro, Kraven, even Dr. Doom.

 

[Oscorp]

While Mysterio is visually interesting, I still think pairing him with Kraven could be problematic because Mysterio isn't very action oriented, he's mostly about disorienting and tricking Spider-Man than to provide spectacular action scenes.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

While Mysterio is visually interesting, I still think pairing him with Kraven could be problematic because Mysterio isn't very action oriented, he's mostly about disorienting and tricking Spider-Man than to provide spectacular action scenes.

Wouldn't that be better balanced as opposed to problematic?? You have a villain that takes care of the action while the other satisfies the visual spectacle.

 

[JOE]

While Mysterio is visually interesting, I still think pairing him with Kraven could be problematic because Mysterio isn't very action oriented, he's mostly about disorienting and tricking Spider-Man than to provide spectacular action scenes.

One is a physical threat, one is a mental and emotional threat. It's actually a perfect pairing if you ask me.

 

[Oscorp]

Wouldn't that be better balanced as opposed to problematic?? You have a villain that takes care of the action while the other satisfies the visual spectacle.

One is a physical threat, one is a mental and emotional threat. It's actually a perfect pairing if you ask me.

Well my point was that Kraven isn't very action oriented either.

Speaking of that, how do you think the films should portray Kraven's use of potions? Should he use them, should there be hints that he has used them? How would that go hand in hand with Kraven being all about glory, honor and facing a challenge?

 

[Spiderdevil]

The Joker, you seriously think Spidey vs Kraven would be boring to watch? What the actual ****? Since when is one-on-one well choreographed fistfight is boring? Since the days of great Bruce Lee people loved fistfights. So you don't like them? Well, then it makes it a matter of opinion I guess. Man, you must've really hated the final Gobby battle from SM1 lol.
I recommend you watch Raid: Redemption to appreciate just how entertaining fisticuffs can be.

I agree, hold back on the acrobatics and over-the-top cinematics for the first movie and show some raw hand-to-hand action.

But I doubt that would happen since grounded action was perceived to have not worked in TASM, though I hope they do take a balanced approach like SM1

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Well my point was that Kraven isn't very action oriented either.

Speaking of that, how do you think the films should portray Kraven's use of potions? Should he use them, should there be hints that he has used them? How would that go hand in hand with Kraven being all about glory, honor and facing a challenge?

Kraven using potions would be him leveling the playing field. Spidey has the advantage not because of his fighting ability, it's his superpowers. Kraven gaining an increase in strength and agility wouldn't devalue his honor, imo, because he'd feel cheated after learning that Spidey wasn't just a normal guy in a mask that was simply acrobatic and strong like an athlete. It's like racing another guy on the track or swimming and getting beat and later finding out he was juicing. It's already a challenge competing with someone on a high level.

 

[Oscorp]

Kraven using potions would be him leveling the playing field. Spidey has the advantage not because of his fighting ability, it's his superpowers. Kraven gaining an increase in strength and agility wouldn't devalue his honor, imo, because he'd feel cheated after learning that Spidey wasn't just a normal guy in a mask that was simply acrobatic and strong like an athlete. It's like racing another guy on the track or swimming and getting beat and later finding out he was juicing. It's already a challenge competing with someone on a high level.

Whoa that's an awesome explanation! Now I hope they actually show Kraven reasoning like that in the film! t:

 

[Spiderdevil]

I don't know how many of you have played the 'Spider-man' game on PS1
It had an interesting subplot of Mysterio impersonating as Spider-man and doing crimes, it would be an interesting twist, given that early in his career the people would be wary of him, and it would be a good way to integrate Jonah and Bugle into the story

Obviously Mysterio would have to be paired with another Villain, Kraven would be good choice who comes to New York to Hunt the new Superhero

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJZny1N0yJM

 

[Oscorp]

Something similar happened in the comics too (Mysterio impersonating Spider-Man). I can see that work in a film.

 

[JOE]

Well my point was that Kraven isn't very action oriented either.

Speaking of that, how do you think the films should portray Kraven's use of potions? Should he use them, should there be hints that he has used them? How would that go hand in hand with Kraven being all about glory, honor and facing a challenge?

Action is generic. If you're talking fighting action, that's one thing. If you're talking about Mysterio's illusions, could that not be considered action? It's going to be a huge CGI fest, I'll tell you that. Why wouldn't that count? In SSM there's tons of Mysterio action. Fighting all his bots and using his spider sense to differentiate between the illusions and the real threats. There's also tons of Kraven action, the difference is the type of each. Kraven's was more raw fighting and evasive maneuvers. Mysterio is a mind game, still action packed though. Just more visually stimulating.

 

[Oscorp]

Action is generic. If you're talking fighting action, that's one thing. If you're talking about Mysterio's illusions, could that not be considered action? It's going to be a huge CGI fest, I'll tell you that. Why wouldn't that count? In SSM there's tons of Mysterio action. There's also tons of Kraven action, the difference is the type of each.

Yeah I'm talking fighting action. Perhaps you're right though. If Kraven uses his potions he'd be a formidable fighting foe. They are both among my favourite comic book villains so I'd be super happy with them being movie villains.

Is a CGI fest something to strive for if say Sony Imageworks will do it? That's risky but if they can make it good, then I'm all for it.

EDIT: Saw your edited post and yeah, I'm convinced it would work.

 

[JOE]

Yeah I'm talking fighting action. Perhaps you're right though. If Kraven uses his potions he'd be a formidable fighting foe. They are both among my favourite comic book villains so I'd be super happy with them being movie villains.

Is a CGI fest something to strive for if say Sony Imageworks will do it? That's risky but if they can make it good, then I'm all for it.

EDIT: Saw your edited post and yeah, I'm convinced it would work.

Not necessarily, but on the flip side I can't see them doing practical effects for Mysterio. His full cinematic potential requires CGI. Whether or not it's possible for a hybrid of the two remains to be seen.

 

[The Overlord]

Wouldn't that be better balanced as opposed to problematic?? You have a villain that takes care of the action while the other satisfies the visual spectacle.

I disagree, I think Mysterio and Kraven can be the main villain in their own film, putting them together I think does not necessarily play to strengths. I guess it could work, but we don't want to just pair the left over villains who have not appeared on screen yet. I think Lizard would make more sense appearing in a Kraven centered movie, with Lizard replacing Vernim in a Kraven's Last Hunt style story.

I always thought Mysterio as more of psychological foe then physical one, at least when written, I think Kraven is more physical then Mysterio is. I think Mysterio should challenge Spidey's psyche, rather then his physical abilities. If you want a villain to help Kraven provide action scenes, you might want to focus on someone who is more physical then psychological.

Now what kind character should Mysterio be in a movie? He has never been really sympathetic in the comics, so he tends run range from a generic bad guy with a gimmick to a sadistic mind breaker. Since people are tired of sympathetic, how evil should Mysterio be?If you want a real unsympathetic, have them do something nastier then rob banks. Would Mysterio play really cruel psychological tricks to drive Spider-Man mad or just have more of a generic villain plan. Guardian Devil was likely one Mysterio's better showings, but he had the advantage of knowing who DD was. If Mysterio doesn't know who Spidey is, I am not sure how much phsyical damage he can do to Spidey, but maybe they work up some nasty tricks that Mysterio could use to drive Spidey mad that are not dependent on him knowing who Spidey is.

 

[Frodo]

What matters most for the next film is that the villain be dynamic, a true threat, and truly bad. Who will make for cooler fighting scenes should be secondary. Electro, Lizard,Sandman, the Harry Goblins, and Venom all made for fine visual action scenes but they weren't interesting enough to hold the story.

That's why dismissing character alone based on who may not be physically compelling for fx is a mistake. If we're looking for cool fx fights there are plenty of Spiderman games which can achieve that. The reason Ock worked was because he was a compelling villain in addition to fx , not just because of the train fight.

By the same token , we can't make the assumption that if they went with villains Kraven, Vulture, Mysterio, Chameleon , or even Shocker, that their power level , characterizations or motivations would be just like the comics. Filmmakers changed Doc Ock, Electro, Sandman, Two Face, Bane , etc.

I'm not saying that they can make any villain interesting because I don't buy into that school of thought, but what I am saying is that you can't assume that because the villain is one way or one type of threat in the comics that filmmakers couldn't/wouldn't make them a different way on film.

I can understand the argument for having a villain Spiderman could have interesting and challenging fights with but its, gotta be bigger then that , and its has to be a villain who is compelling regardless of whether or not he can take Spiderman in an fx heavy sequence.

 

[Oscorp]

I'd like to see the story where Mysterio makes Spider-Man doubt his sanity adapted.

 

[Arach Knight]

For the umpteenth time I'm saying that a Spider-Man movie could not be made up solely of just fist fight action scenes. Not in a million years. One or two would be great, but all action scenes just being punch ups one would be boring for a Spider-Man movie because, and what I am saying here is a fact not an opinion, audiences expect big spectacle eye candy action scenes from the fight scenes with the villains in these movies.

1) Calling an opinion a fact, doesn't actually constitute the validity of such a statement actually being a fact.

2) Kraven isn't just a fist fighter, but to even insinuate that fist fights are unappealing is just disingenous. It is fine if YOU don't find such things appealing, but don't conflate your preference with the reality of the matter. The history of popular Chinese cinema has been founded upon exporting martial arts dramas (and fantasies) that revolve around "fist fights."

[YT]watch?v=R2qHKXL-_vw[/YT]

Six million plus views. Clearly, people enjoyed what they saw.

[YT]watch?v=hmWo7m3zhZs[/YT]

That fight scene has garnered critical praise, not only for its realism, but the fact that it was shot in one continuous take, and it is known for being captivating for those two reasons. Yet you assert that such fights would be boring? You are welcome to your opinion, but it is just that: an opinion.

 

[The Joker]

1) Calling an opinion a fact, doesn't actually constitute the validity of such a statement actually being a fact.

It's not an opinion. There is no way they are going to do a Spider-Man movie without a villain who can give great visual eye candy in the action scenes.

Book mark this page and hold me to this when they cast the villain or villains for this movie. If I'm wrong you can rub it in my face. But we both know that it's not going to happen. Five Spider-Man movies later, and we have yet to have one without a visually pleasing villain who can give epic visual fight scenes.

2) Kraven isn't just a fist fighter, but to even insinuate that fist fights are unappealing is just disingenous.

I never said Kraven was just a fist fighter. He uses jungle weapons and hunting guns, too. But his primary fighting method is fisticuffs. None of these things can offer an epic visual fight scene like with the other super powered villains. The kind of fights that are a necessity for these movies because it is what audiences want and expect.

The history of popular Chinese cinema has been founded upon exporting martial arts dramas (and fantasies) that revolve around "fist fights."

This is not a Chinese martial arts movie. It's a superhero comic book movie. The expectations for action scenes from each of these brands of movie are very, very, VERY different.

Do you expect to see action scenes like the Doc Ock train fight in a Bruce Lee movie?

[YT}watch?v=R2qHKXL-_vw[/YT]

Six million plus views. Clearly, people enjoyed what they saw.

Link doesn't work.

[YT]watch?v=hmWo7m3zhZs[/YT]

That fight scene has garnered critical praise, not only for its realism, but the fact that it was shot in one continuous take, and it is known for being captivating for those two reasons. Yet you assert that such fights would be boring? You are welcome to your opinion, but it is just that: an opinion.

No offense but I feel like you are deliberately not reading what I'm saying. I am not, and never have said fight scenes like that are bad in those types of movies. Not once, and I challenge you to point out where I did.

For the last time I am saying that one on one fistifcuff fight scenes like that would not be acceptable as being the only types of fight scenes in a superhero movie because fans and general audiences expect to see big epic scale visual action scenes, and not just intimate one on one punch ups.

I have been very clear on this point, but you keep missing it for some reason. I say again, and you can take this a fact, too; there is no way that if they go with just one villain, it will be a villain who cannot give big epic visual fight scenes with Spidey. And that's not Kraven. That's why he cannot and will not be the solo villain in a Spidey movie. A main villain absolutely, but he won't be the only villain in the movie if he's ever used.

One of the key things they always take into consideration in choosing villains is the visual possibilities they present. They will not bank their multi million dollar Spider-Man movie's action scenes on a jungle man with nothing but his fists and hunting weapons.