Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version)

[I'm Batman.]

I've no interest in Vulture. I think he's boring as a villain and in action. Shocker is a muscle villain like Rhino. They could go in any movie as C-villains. Pass on Morbius because vampires we don't need. Sandman could come back as a secondary villain to some brain villain. I see Mysterio is winning the poll. Why is that then? What's the great idea for a movie story with him?

I'm a fan of Vulture, and I always wondered of what could've been had Sony let Raimi use Vulture rather than cramming Venom down everyone's throat.

 

[The Infernal]

I have no problem believing Kraven could provide a spectacular visual fight with Spider-man on film. Even if big set piece battles are all you care about (not that they should be the be all and end all of superhero movies). Aside from being someone who can take on Spider-man physically one on one he is an agile hunter who can employ various traps and weaponry and in Last Hunt he masqueraded as Spider-man. That last part especially could be pretty entertaining seeing Spider-man face off against Kraven pretending to be Spider-man (with his own set of web shooters I imagine).

 

[Keehar]

Kraven isn't just a fist fighter, but to even insinuate that fist fights are unappealing is just disingenous. It is fine if YOU don't find such things appealing, but don't conflate your preference with the reality of the matter. The history of popular Chinese cinema has been founded upon exporting martial arts dramas (and fantasies) that revolve around "fist fights."

[YT]watch?v=R2qHKXL-_vw[/YT]

Six million plus views. Clearly, people enjoyed what they saw.

[YT]watch?v=hmWo7m3zhZs[/YT]

That fight scene has garnered critical praise, not only for its realism, but the fact that it was shot in one continuous take, and it is known for being captivating for those two reasons. Yet you assert that such fights would be boring? You are welcome to your opinion, but it is just that: an opinion.

These aren't kung fu movies, pal. People love a great car chase action scene as well. I can post Youtube vids with movie car chases that have more than 6 million views, but we don't want our Spider-Man action scenes being all car chases now do we.

Kraven can come in a throw his fists and wave his spears and potions around. Set some jungle type of traps too. Probably make for a good fight scene. But I'll be pissed if that's the only type of fights we get because that just doesn't cut the mustard in the action department. This is Spider-Man. We want more bigger and better eye popping action dust ups than that.

Even Sony weren't that dumb not to know that when they were making these movies on their own. Marvel know it all too well, too.

I'm a fan of Vulture, and I always wondered of what could've been had Sony let Raimi use Vulture rather than cramming Venom down everyone's throat.

I could never warm to the old buzzard. Maybe Raimi could have done something interesting with him, but he wasn't letting the old coot carry it on his own. Sandman and the Goblin were sharing the load too.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I have to agree with Joker here. Kraven is a good villain to have in a movie, but from an action perspective he isn't going to be able to hold the audience's interest as the sole villain in a film. Unless they modified him ala Spectacular Spider-Man and turned him into a lion or something, but I didn't care for that.

He's not the only villain in that position. Kingpin is another example of a great villain who can easily be the main villain, but would need a flashier action-villain to be paired with him (in his case probably as muscle).

 

[Arach Knight]

It's not an opinion. There is no way they are going to do a Spider-Man movie without a villain who can give great visual eye candy in the action scenes.

That is a claim beyond your ability to back up with facts, unless you happen to have a pew poll of film audience expectations for superhero films. People go to Spider-Man movies for a number of reasons upon which we may only offer conjecture, but never any definitive claim such as yours.

Book mark this page and hold me to this when they cast the villain or villains for this movie. If I'm wrong you can rub it in my face.

I have no interest into delving into such petty actions. My goal is not to "prove you wrong" or "prove myself correct." My sole issue is your reasoning for dismissing Kraven as a potential character. Not that I am against objecting to particular characters being used in film. There are very valid reasons one may object to a particular character taking on the role of the primary antagonist. In fact, the core of creative writing is rooted in understanding the use of flat, round, static and dynamic characters in order to successfully tell a compelling narrative. This is why I rejected several villains in an earlier post: some characters are not dynamic or round and would therefore not allow the audience to follow any real development.

So there are very objective reasons to reject the use of certain characters in a film. However, simply asserting that Kraven is too boring because his brand of pugilism is not as visually exciting (which is also an opinion and not a fact), is rather flaccid as a rebuttal. I'd sooner accept that Kraven, in more recent incarnations, has proven to be a rather dark character, where as Spider-Man has mostly been treated as a lighter character in film. Consequently, these portrayals would be in tonal conflict with what Marvel and Sony seek to do with Spider-Man. But complaining about the kind of fighting that Kraven can offer? It is valid in as far as your right to find such a scenario uninteresting, but hardly a legitimate grievance that would objectively drag down the film.

I never said Kraven was just a fist fighter. He uses jungle weapons and hunting guns, too. But his primary fighting method is fisticuffs. None of these things can offer an epic visual fight scene like with the other super powered villains. The kind of fights that are a necessity for these movies because it is what audiences want and expect.

The entirety of the Dark Knight Trilogy failed audience expectations in the fight department, based upon the criterion you put forth. Christopher Nolan decided to forego Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Clayface, Killer Croc and other super powered Batman rogues. Nolan even depowered Bane. By your measure, the TDK trilogy failed to deliver what audiences expect.

This is not a Chinese martial arts movie. It's a superhero comic book movie. The expectations for action scenes from each of these brands of movie are very, very, VERY different.[/QUOTE/

They are action movies, plain and simple. The 70s had martial arts action movies. The 80s had military/mercenary gun based action movies. The 00s have superhero action movies. They are still action movies.

Do you expect to see action scenes like the Doc Ock train fight in a Bruce Lee movie?

Perhaps not, because Bruce Lee died young and the technology available in his time couldn't offer what we now consider "visually compelling". However, it isn't as if martial arts films that are a bit more "modern" (a loose term for the last thirty years of martial arts films) are devoid of train fights.

[YT]/watch?v=yRaT1oQR02U[/YT]

For the last time I am saying that one on one fistifcuff fight scenes like that would not be acceptable as being the only types of fight scenes in a superhero movie because fans and general audiences expect to see big epic scale visual action scenes, and not just intimate one on one punch ups.

See my above comments about Batman. OR swap out Batman for Captain America. Take your pick.

it will be a villain who cannot give big epic visual fight scenes with Spidey. And that's not Kraven. That's why he cannot and will not be the solo villain in a Spidey movie.

Says who? Don't impose the limitations of your imagination upon the creative ability of other individuals who could indeed make a fight with Kraven come across a "epic", as you say. At this point, I feel safe in saying that you don't understand Kraven as a character and you clearly want your superhero films to be popcorn flicks, which is fine, but don't presume that your tastes or inability to imagine a character as being exciting to watch, as being the truth that a given character wouldn't be compelling to watch, at least in terms of fighting.

 

[ironwez20]

Wait doesn't kraken have enhanced abilities like in ultimate and ssm? Couldn't they work with that?

 

[The Joker]

These aren't kung fu movies, pal. People love a great car chase action scene as well. I can post Youtube vids with movie car chases that have more than 6 million views, but we don't want our Spider-Man action scenes being all car chases now do we.

Kraven can come in a throw his fists and wave his spears and potions around. Set some jungle type of traps too. Probably make for a good fight scene. But I'll be pissed if that's the only type of fights we get because that just doesn't cut the mustard in the action department. This is Spider-Man. We want more bigger and better eye popping action dust ups than that.

Even Sony weren't that dumb not to know that when they were making these movies on their own. Marvel know it all too well, too.

I have to agree with Joker here. Kraven is a good villain to have in a movie, but from an action perspective he isn't going to be able to hold the audience's interest as the sole villain in a film. Unless they modified him ala Spectacular Spider-Man and turned him into a lion or something, but I didn't care for that.

He's not the only villain in that position. Kingpin is another example of a great villain who can easily be the main villain, but would need a flashier action-villain to be paired with him (in his case probably as muscle).

Thank you

That is a claim beyond your ability to back up with facts, unless you happen to have a pew poll of film audience expectations for superhero films. People go to Spider-Man movies for a number of reasons upon which we may only offer conjecture, but never any definitive claim such as yours.

You're right I can't go and present you with a piece of paper or a link with some statistical numbers that state such a thing. I can only use common sense based on the Spider-Man movies we've had so far.

Five Spider-Man movies. Not one so far that has relied on a villain that is unable to provide epic visual action. These action scenes are as much part of the furniture of the Spider-Man movies as the web swinging. It's an audience expectation.

I have no interest into delving into such petty actions. My goal is not to "prove you wrong" or "prove myself correct." My sole issue is your reasoning for dismissing Kraven as a potential character. Not that I am against objecting to particular characters being used in film. There are very valid reasons one may object to a particular character taking on the role of the primary antagonist. In fact, the core of creative writing is rooted in understanding the use of flat, round, static and dynamic characters in order to successfully tell a compelling narrative. This is why I rejected several villains in an earlier post: some characters are not dynamic or round and would therefore not allow the audience to follow any real development.

So there are very objective reasons to reject the use of certain characters in a film. However, simply asserting that Kraven is too boring because his brand of pugilism is not as visually exciting (which is also an opinion and not a fact), is rather flaccid as a rebuttal. I'd sooner accept that Kraven, in more recent incarnations, has proven to be a rather dark character, where as Spider-Man has mostly been treated as a lighter character in film. Consequently, these portrayals would be in tonal conflict with what Marvel and Sony seek to do with Spider-Man. But complaining about the kind of fighting that Kraven can offer? It is valid in as far as your right to find such a scenario uninteresting, but hardly a legitimate grievance that would objectively drag down the film.

For a start I am not dismissing Kraven as a potential character. Again you're not reading what I'm saying! I have said several times now Kraven could very much be the main villain of a Spider-Man movie. Should I go back and screencap my previous posts where I said this, just so you realize the basic points you've what I can only assume not been reading or ignoring? As a villain, character-wise, he has plenty of potential. I think he's a great character, and Kraven's Last Hunt is one of my favorite Spidey stories. Kraven is a great villain, and could be a main villain with one arm tied behind his back. His potential as a character is huge. As an action character not as much.

The type of action scenes a character can provide is absolutely 100% a legitimate and big concern that is taken as a key factor in deciding whom the villain will be. Kraven could absolutely provide a good one on one fight in the movie. But as the only brand of fights in the movie? Absolutely not. And I don't really need to repeat again why do I?

The entirety of the Dark Knight Trilogy failed audience expectations in the fight department, based upon the criterion you put forth. Christopher Nolan decided to forego Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Clayface, Killer Croc and other super powered Batman rogues. Nolan even depowered Bane. By your measure, the TDK trilogy failed to deliver what audiences expect.

The Batman movies have NEVER been predicated on super powered characters or fights. Ever since Tim Burton did the first one back in 1989 using only the Joker (who has not got a single power to his name) and the movie was a monster success. Same in the next two Batman movies using Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler and Two Face. None of these characters are super powered eye candy. Mr. Freeze in Batman and Robin is the first time Batman faced a villain with any powers.

So why would you think Nolan's movies would need to deliver Clayface or Killer Croc, or Mr. Freeze to be successful when the others didn't?

They are action movies, plain and simple. The 70s had martial arts action movies. The 80s had military/mercenary gun based action movies. The 00s have superhero action movies. They are still action movies.

That's like saying they are comedy movies, or horror movies etc. They are not all the same type of movie just because they fall under a particular genre. They come in different styles, tones etc. It's ridiculous to even suggest otherwise. Just like action movies come in different forms. Or are you trying to say Die Hard is the same type of action movie as say Transformers?

Perhaps not, because Bruce Lee died young and the technology available in his time couldn't offer what we now consider "visually compelling".

You know exactly what I meant when I said that. You don't expect to see Spider-Man/super villain type action in a Martial arts movie.

However, it isn't as if martial arts films that are a bit more "modern" (a loose term for the last thirty years of martial arts films) are devoid of train fights.

[YT]/watch?v=yRaT1oQR02U[/YT]

Oh yes that really visually embodies the Ock and Spidey battle in Spider-Man 2. Two guys standing in one spot on a train punching and kicking each other.

I feel like you're pulling my leg at this point.

See my above comments about Batman. OR swap out Batman for Captain America. Take your pick.

I already addressed Batman. What have you got to say about Captain America?

Says who? Don't impose the limitations of your imagination upon the creative ability of other individuals who could indeed make a fight with Kraven come across a "epic", as you say. At this point, I feel safe in saying that you don't understand Kraven as a character and you clearly want your superhero films to be popcorn flicks, which is fine, but don't presume that your tastes or inability to imagine a character as being exciting to watch, as being the truth that a given character wouldn't be compelling to watch, at least in terms of fighting.

Says common sense and facts. Just like Kingpin and the Chameleon can't do it either. They are not physically equipped as characters for it. Unless you'd rather they change Kraven into a mutant lion man like the TSSM cartoon did lol.

I understand Kraven that's why I can say these things with total certainty. Kraven could provide a great one on one fight, like the final fight with Goblin in SM-1. But no way would fights like that be enough as the only type of fights for a Spider-Man movie. That is a fact.

 

[Arach Knight]

Wait doesn't kraken have enhanced abilities like in ultimate and ssm? Couldn't they work with that?

Kraven has a number of low-level super powers that he gets through imbibing a potion made of "jungle herbs." The potion grants Kraven moderate superhuman strength, speed, stamina and durability that are sufficient enough to take on Spider-Man. In fact, Kraven even shared the serum with The Chameleon in Amazing Spider-Man #15 (Ditko era).

This is why I kept stating that the Joker doesn't actually know much about Kraven. He kept insisting that Kraven is "just a jungle man with a spear" and would therefore be boringto watch in a fight. Kraven defeated Spider-Man in singles combat and then spent two weeks impersonating him, after having buried Spider-Man (literally). He was able to pull off the impersonation (albeit far more violent) because he is himself an athletic, mildly super powered individual.

 

[Arach Knight]

I understand Kraven that's why I can say these things with total certainty. Kraven could provide a great one on one fight, like the final fight with Goblin in SM-1. But no way would fights like that be enough as the only type of fights for a Spider-Man movie. That is a fact.

Green Goblin has virtually the same power set as Kraven, yet you claim to "'understand" Kraven. The only difference is that Goblin flies on a glider where as Kraven gets around via free running. One concession: The Green Goblin has a higher level of super human strength (9 ton upper limit vs 2 ton upper limit). Outside of that fact, he isn't any more dynamic in terms of powers. But you don't come around here saying "Green Goblin is just a Halloween guy with bombs."

 

[The Joker]

Wait doesn't kraken have enhanced abilities like in ultimate and ssm? Couldn't they work with that?

Ultimate Kraven got turned into a mutant animal freak:

Spectacular Spider-Man Kraven was turned into a Lion man:

There's a pattern here. Clearly these two mediums didn't think that giving a jungle man some advanced strength and speed from a herb potion was good enough. And while I don't think the movies should mutate Kraven like this for a second, I can understand why they felt this way.

Kraven is a great fighter. Can hold his own against Spidey. Arach Knight thinks I don't get this, but he's totally wrong. The likes of Kingpin can take on Spidey in a fight, too. Kingpin's got the problem I've been saying with Kraven. Not that he's a bad character, or a fight scene with him would be boring to watch. It's that his brand of fight scenes are not good enough to be the only ones in a Spider-Man movie. Simple as that.

Green Goblin has virtually the same power set as Kraven, yet you claim to "'understand" Kraven. The only difference is that Goblin flies on a glider where as Kraven gets around via free running. One concession: The Green Goblin has a higher level of super human strength (9 ton upper limit vs 2 ton upper limit). Outside of that fact, he isn't any more dynamic in terms of powers. But you don't come around here saying "Green Goblin is just a Halloween guy with bombs."

Green Goblin and Kraven's fight scenes are apples and oranges. Yeah Spider-Man and Goblin can get down and dirty in a one on one fight, but so can so many other Spidey villains. Goblin employs his glider, pumpkin bombs, razor bats etc and they all make for a totally different brand of fight scene, and more visually stimulating. You'd never see a fight scene like the Times Square fight in SM-1, or the New Goblin/Peter fight in SM-3 with Kraven and Spidey.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Batman and Captain America aren't superpowered characters so they aren't really comparable to Spider-Man. They are more along the same lines as James Bond or Indiana Jones as opposed to true superpowered characters like Spider-Man or Superman.

 

[Arach Knight]

Green Goblin and Kraven's fight scenes are apples and oranges. Yeah Spider-Man and Goblin can get down and dirty in a one on one fight, but so can so many other Spidey villains. Goblin employs his glider, pumpkin bombs, razor bats etc and they all make for a totally different brand of fight scene, and more visually stimulating. You'd never see a fight scene like the Times Square fight in SM-1, or the New Goblin/Peter fight in SM-3 with Kraven and Spidey.

Your memory must be awfully fuzzy. The Times Square fight in Spider-Man 1 wasn't "epic" or filled with events where the glider was all that relevant. Spidey meets Goblin on the ground and gets kicked into a lamp post after throwing a failed punch. Goblin gets airborn and Spidey tries to rescue Mary Jane. Goblin catches Spider-Man, slams his face into a wall a few times, Spider-Man throws a few elbows and a punch. Spidey then hops off the glider, pulls out some of the circuitry, and Goblin flies off on his broken glider. It was a FIST FIGHT! And not even a very fascinating one. It isn't as if Kraven would be incapable of performing a similar feeat in terms of sending Spider-Man flying with a single punch.

And what about Spidey's next fight with the Green Goblin? They were inside of a burning building, Goblin threw a bunch of blades at Spider-Man, Spider-Man dodges the blades. Spider-Man kicks Goblin, yanks him in with webbing, kicks him again, and then runs off as the flames consume the building. Again, a FIST FIGHT.

The final battle with the Goblin? Entirely a fist fight, literally. At no point does Goblin do something that couldn't be matched by any number of metahuman foes that also have superhuman strength and agility.

Kraven can't throw stuff as Spider-Man? Kraven can't be web yanked? Kraven can't slam Spider-Man into a wall? Nothing you are arguing for is impossible or implausible with Kraven.

 

[The Overlord]

I'd like to see the story where Mysterio makes Spider-Man doubt his sanity adapted.

Which one, I think Mysterio has tried that more once. I don't think some Mysterio's usual tricks would work, this is their first meeting, Spidey wouldn't really have a rogues gallery yet, so Mysterio can't just summon illusion versions of Spidey's versions of Spidey.

Plus Mysterio just try to make Spidey doubt his sanity or break his spirit? Because one of those is far nastier then the other. Playing on Spider-Man's sense of guilt and grief would more likely to break him then just sending illusion villains would. I think Mysterio could come up with a good psychological profile of Spidey and could deduce some good psychological buttons.

People here talk about how they want an unsympathetic villain in contrast to all the sympathetic ones that have appeared on film, but how unsympathetic do you really want a new villain to be?

You can have a story where Mysterio kidnaps an important official or someone and invites Spidey to save him. After getting through a bunch of traps, Spidey almost saves the official, then Mysterio activates a bomb and blows that guy to kingdom come. If this is early Spider-Man, that could be the first guy Spidey failed to save since Uncle Ben died and then Mysterio adds insult to injury by framing Spidey for the murder. Then he decides to send illusions of this dead guy and his family to Spidey to try and break him with guilt.

Again that would be a darker take on Mysterio, a murder and a sadist who will do anything to break Spidey's spirit. But if you want a really unsympathetic, you have to have him do something really unsympathetic.

But the end of the movie, Spider-Man overcomes his feelings and guilt and despair and gives Mysterio the punch in the face he deserves. That is where the triumph and hopefuliness of the movie comes from, Mysterio tries to break Spidey, pulls out every nasty trick he can think of, but ultimately fails and Spidey becomes stronger for it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Batman and Captain America aren't superpowered characters so they aren't really comparable to Spider-Man. They are more along the same lines as James Bond or Indiana Jones as opposed to true superpowered characters like Spider-Man or Superman.

Dude, Cap fell like four stories and was only bothered.

 

[The Joker]

Batman and Captain America aren't superpowered characters so they aren't really comparable to Spider-Man. They are more along the same lines as James Bond or Indiana Jones as opposed to true superpowered characters like Spider-Man or Superman.

Well Cap has super strength, but yeah it doesn't endow him with any flashy powers.

Your memory must be awfully fuzzy. The Times Square fight in Spider-Man 1 wasn't "epic" or filled with events where the glider was all that relevant. Spidey meets Goblin on the ground and gets kicked into a lamp post after throwing a failed punch. Goblin gets airborn and Spidey tries to rescue Mary Jane. Goblin catches Spider-Man, slams his face into a wall a few times, Spider-Man throws a few elbows and a punch. Spidey then hops off the glider, pulls out some of the circuitry, and Goblin flies off on his broken glider. It was a FIST FIGHT! And not even a very fascinating one. It isn't as if Kraven would be incapable of performing a similar feeat in terms of sending Spider-Man flying with a single punch.

And what about Spidey's next fight with the Green Goblin? They were inside of a burning building, Goblin threw a bunch of blades at Spider-Man, Spider-Man dodges the blades. Spider-Man kicks Goblin, yanks him in with webbing, kicks him again, and then runs off as the flames consume the building. Again, a FIST FIGHT.

The final battle with the Goblin? Entirely a fist fight, literally. At no point does Goblin do something that couldn't be matched by any number of metahuman foes that also have superhuman strength and agility.

Kraven can't throw stuff as Spider-Man? Kraven can't be web yanked? Kraven can't slam Spider-Man into a wall? Nothing you are arguing for is impossible or implausible with Kraven.

No offense but you have an uncanny knack for trying to smoke screen something into something it's not by over simplifying it. Yes, the Times Square fight was indeed where the glider was all that relevant. It would have been a completely different fight scene without it.

For a start Spidey does not meet Goblin on the ground. He meets him in the air when he swings in and kicks him off his glider. Which has the cascade effect of the glider knocking the giant balloon out of the air and nearly crushing the kid, whom Spidey had to save. That there is two events already predicated on the glider and the fight scene has barely begun. Do we have to go into the rest of the fight involving Goblin chasing Spidey on his glider shooting at him, or flying into him mid air smashing him into a window etc?

So you may have the fuzzy memory, mate, if you believe he glider was barely relevant.

As for the burning building fight, you're right, that was a fight made primarily of fist fighting, but again it also involved the high tech gadgetry of Goblin, and Spidey doing all kinds of fancy maneuvers to dodge it, too. Then you have the bridge showdown, which again was heavily predicated on Goblin's toys and glider, starting with him bombing the bridge.

This is another key point you're missing. It's not just in fight scenes but in general these villains are visually stimulating. Like watching Ock rip a bank vault door off and flinging it across a room, or Goblin flying in and bombing a bridge on his glider, or Sandman morphing into sand form and ripping into a armored car etc. Goblin is a flashy high destruction causing, high tech using and fighting villain. His bouts with Spidey as well as his villainy actions provide visual treats. You trying to demean them by saying it's just stuff being thrown or web yanked is just silly. Every villain can throw stuff or get web yanked or slammed into a wall. That doesn't make them all the same in a fight scene.

I notice you skipped on the Spider-Man 3 one. Could you not bluff your way through that aerial battle?

But seriously I feel like you're pulling my leg with this at this point. I'm kind of bored of repeating myself now, too. I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Well Cap has super strength, but yeah it doesn't endow him with any flashy powers.

Cap also has super endurance. Recall the beginning of the film. He also has keen sight. And he is also intellectually endowed, isn't he? He is supposed to be a genius strategist.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Dude, Cap fell like four stories and was only bothered.

Bond's gone through tons of crap like that too. In TWINE he falls out of a hot air balloon onto the Millennium Dome and only suffers a minor shoulder injury.

Well Cap has super strength, but yeah it doesn't endow him with any flashy powers.

Technically, he's only 'peak human.' All of human potential realized.

 

[The Joker]

Cap also has super endurance. Recall the beginning of the film. He also has keen sight. And he is also intellectually endowed, isn't he? He is supposed to be a genius strategist.

I don't know about genius strategist, but the others are right I believe. But again they're not flashy type powers. Like Batman being a brilliant detective, or having armor giving him better endurance and protection in a fight doesn't really make him a flashy powered character.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Bond's gone through tons of crap like that too.

Dude. Nothing Bond has done physically even comes close to Cap's feats in TWS.

Technically, he's 'peak human.' All of human potential realized.

Only in the main-line comics. In the Ultimate Comics, Cap is clearly a low level Superhuman. MCU Cap also seems to be at that level.

 

[Frodo]

Ultimate Kraven got turned into a mutant animal freak:

I think if they were to do Kraven it would be better for him to be something along this line. You already have a hero who's got Spider dna in him so it wouldn't be so radical if Kraven did have genetically enhanced dna with various strains of different animals. I mean, aside from some fanboys, there wouldn't be any real outrage if they made him more than just a human.

Again, it might not be enough to win over those who don't want him as a side or main villain since that's more of a taste issue. That said, giving him a physical advantage and even edge of an animal would work alot better on film then magic positions imo. I think he could work as a solo villain but not in the "Let me destroy the city", "I want to rule New York" scale that's been used before. Kraven would better work more in a smaller scale story in which the stakes aren't about destroying city blocks but about targeting and hunting Spiderman/Peter Parker and the people he cares about. A film where the stakes are the lives of his family and friends, would certainly be compelling enough to keep the audience invested without having yet another villain who wants to destroy Manhattan, turn people into minions , are get the attention of the news media.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Dude. Nothing Bond has done physically even comes close to Cap's feats in TWS.

He's not far off. He's gone toe-to-toe with a truly superpowered individual in Jaws, been tossed out of an airplane without a parachute, fought on top of an airplane, the balloon fall that I edited into the original post, falls off a train bridge after being shot twice, outrun numerous fireballs, etc.

Indy too. He jumped out of an airplane at the top of the Himalayas with nothing but a rubber raft and made it all the way down to the bottom into India while barely messing up his hair.

Only in the main-line comics. In the Ultimate Comics, Cap is clearly a low level Superhuman. MCU Cap also seems to be at that level.

I'll concede this very well could be true. But even if MCU Cap is a low level superhuman, as a character he's closer to the traditional action hero level of abilities than he is guys like Thor.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

He's gone toe-to-toe with a truly superpowered individual in Jaws, been tossed out of an airplane without a parachute, fought on top of an airplane, the balloon fall that I edited into the original post, falls off a train bridge after being shot twice, outrun numerous fireballs, etc.

Jaws seemed to be about as formidable as Bane in TDKR. I consider Cap and Winter Soldier a cut above them.

About the parachute, didn't Bond break his fall on a ceiling of cloth? Recall that Cap made a looong ass jump in the third act on top of a hellicarrier without so much as breaking a sweat.

I will give the ending of the PT of Skyfall. However, that seemed more of a metaphorical death and subsequent revival. Bond doesn't display that level of supreme endurance any time else. Cap, on the other hand, had these feats on the regular. Without a thematic force serving as a propellant.

As for outrunning fireballs -- they were rather slow.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think we are getting too far off topic, so I'll cut things off here before we get a visit from the mods. Anyways the point is that Cap is much closer to that level than he is a character like Spider-Man who performs all sorts of superheroics. Maybe Cap is a little more powerful than your average action hero, but he's still nowhere near Spider-Man.

 

[Keehar]

Kraven has a number of low-level super powers that he gets through imbibing a potion made of "jungle herbs." The potion grants Kraven moderate superhuman strength, speed, stamina and durability that are sufficient enough to take on Spider-Man. In fact, Kraven even shared the serum with The Chameleon in Amazing Spider-Man #15 (Ditko era).

So the Jungle hunter having some low level strength and stamina powers out of a jungle juice potion is supposed to make this Gunga Din a class visual fighter in a scrap like the rest of the super powered bads? Man giving a jungle man more strength and speed ain't make his fights look cooler. It just makes him able to do them faster and longer. Trying pitching this to Marvel and Sony for Kraven being their one and only baddie in their collaborative Spider-Man movie. I reckon I can hear them laughing already.

They need to do this baby right. The last lot of movies made a pig's ear out of the baddies. Kraven on his todd isn't the way to go. He's not up to the action section all by himself. Share the load with Scorpion or Rhino. Some lower level villain with an animal name that he could hunt. Too soon for Lizard. I think he deserves better than being Kraven's hunt prey anyway.

I think we are getting too far off topic, so I'll cut things off here before we get a visit from the mods. Anyways the point is that Cap is much closer to that level than he is a character like Spider-Man who performs all sorts of superheroics. Maybe Cap is a little more powerful than your average action hero, but he's still nowhere near Spider-Man.

I reckon you're right. Cap is just Batman or Bond with extra strength. Still love the guy though. Evans has come a long way from Johnny Storm.

 

[Arach Knight]

Yes, the Times Square fight was indeed where the glider was all that relevant. It would have been a completely different fight scene without it.

Not really. The glider was important for the fight on the bridge. For the fight at the Macy's parade? It was hardly important. Any bomb hurling foe could have achieved the same scale of damage, which wasn't much to begin with. Aside from popping a few balloons, Goblin mostly took out a few outdoor mezzanines and caused general panic, but he didn't really do much damage, at least not compared to say Iron Man's fight with Iron Monger, any fight from Avengers, Superman's fight with the Kryptonians in Smallville.

For a start Spidey does not meet Goblin on the ground. He meets him in the air when he swings in and kicks him off his glider. Which has the cascade effect of the glider knocking the giant balloon out of the air and nearly crushing the kid, whom Spidey had to save. That there is two events already predicated on the glider and the fight scene has barely begun

I stated that Spidey met Goblin in battle on the ground, and you then make a contradictory statement about Spider-Man swinging into Goblin, but then state that the battle had barely begun by the time both characters are on the ground...which was my initial point. No actual fighting took place until both characters were in the ground. And even once the Goblin and Spidey were in the air, they still had a fight that could have happened on the ground. Only one Spider-Man fight in that entire movie (the bridge fight) was dependent upon the glider, but even with that concession, your point is proven weak at best, as pretty much every other fight was impacted by Goblin riding a glider.

All of that is beside the point, because your initial claim was that Kraven was just a jungle man with spears. When it was pointed out to you that Kraven indeed has powers and has a power set similar to one of the villains you listed, you just started making excuses. This is a fallacy called moving the goal posts. Previously I stated i was uninterested in proving you wrong, but this time you flat out are wrong because your argument has devolved into a number of irrelevant statements meant to bolster a flaccid argument that was disproved several posts ago.

As for the burning building fight, you're right, that was a fight made primarily of fist fighting, but again it also involved the high tech gadgetry of Goblin, and Spidey doing all kinds of fancy maneuvers to dodge it, too

I suppose they were high tech, but having to dodge those flying razors is nothing that couldn't be achieved by watching Spider-Man dodge bullets, boomerangs, bolas or any other projectile or launched weapon. And bombs aren't all that high tech. Explosives are an old technology from ancient China (circa tenth century). The glider is the most high tech piece of Goblin's arsenal, but everything else amounts to guns, bombs and blades...two of those three are items in Kraven's arsenal. So...yeah...

This is another key point you're missing. It's not just in fight scenes but in general these villains are visually stimulating. Like watching Ock rip a bank vault door off and flinging it across a room[\QUOTE]

And what is keeping Kraven from doing that same thing? Kraven has an established upper press limit of 2 tons. A bank vault door would be well within his power range. Also, you keep saying "visually stimulating" but that is such a nebulous claim. What determines that something is visually stimulating? You have yet to outline the criteria/on for this statement. Hurling bombs and blades seems to be on your list based on your Goblin references, and those are things that Kraven is capable of doing. Hurling large objects also seems to be on your list, but again, this is something Kraven is quite capable of. On top of that, before Spider-Man received numerous power buffs, there was a point where Kraven was physically stronger than Spider-Man (Lee and Ditko era).

So again, what is your point? You keep moving the goal posts. You ignorantly stated that Kraven is just a "jungle man with spears." It was pointed out that Kraven has powers. Then you said that his powers aren't the same as other villains and therefore can't provide the same visual stimulus. You then proceed to cite Green Goblin, who has a nearly identical power set. I am not sure you even know what you really want. You just have it out for Kraven, even though you have proven yourself ignorant about the history of the character.

I notice you skipped on the Spider-Man 3 one. Could you not bluff your way through that aerial battle?

I am not bluffing my way through anything. Thus far, you were grossly incorrect about the nature of Kraven, after claiming you understood the character. You made several and repated ignorant comments (I mean ignorant in the pure sense of a lack of knowledge) about the nature of Kraven, only to be flatly proven incorrect (such as your lack of knowledge of Kraven's power limits, power set, weapons, fighting abilities etc). I don't have to go point for point to illustrate that you are making a bevy of fallacious claims to pander to your weak argument. But if you wish, yes, there was one fight in Spider-Man 3 in which flight provided a dynamic that Kraven in particular could not easily replicate. Beyond that, the fights with Venom and Sandman were all within the sphere of the same kind of fight that Kraven could offer, as again, these fights were all fist fights. The fact that Sandman changed shapes has no real bearing on the ultimate nature of the battle between he and Spider-Man...

But seriously I feel like you're pulling my leg with this at this point. I'm kind of bored of repeating myself now, too. I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

I already told you SEVERAL TIMES and SEVERAL posts ago that you are welcome to your opinion. I simply suggested that you avoid conflating your opinion with fact, avoid assuming that the limits of your imagination mean that others can't imagine a better scenario than you, and avoid stating that Kraven can't offer a dynamic fight.

You don't know what motivates people to watch superhero films, so your claim there was unfounded. You ignorantly stated that Kraven is "just a jungle man with a spear" which pretty much tells that you don't know thing the first about the character, as you didn't even know about his serum or power set (or at least nothing you stated suggests that you know that the character does have super powers). You said your issue was that Kraven didn't have sufficient powers to be a solo villain, and therefore couldn't offer a dynamic fight, and you were wrong there as well. Keep your opinion, stop treating it like a fact.

You disagree, that is great, but don't come at me with pseudo-facts (read: opinions) when I am taking the time to deconstruct your argument, back up my claims with proof and generally take the time to acknowledge your arguments, even when they have more holes than swiss cheese. Good lord, I should change my screen name to the "credible hulk", because I actually give a damn about sources and facts when making a claim. I'm done, because this conversation is derailing the thread.