Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[The Joker]

The Joker is a scene stealer. Always has been, always will be. He's an outlandish, in your face character, completely psychotic, and witty as hell. He was guaranteed to be the most memorable, and a scene stealer. People were predicting that from the moment we heard he was officially going to be in it.

Batman's impact was just fine for TDK. Villains often play out themes that mirror the heros, and serve the hero's story. The Spider-Man movies do it all the time. Particularly with Green Goblin and Doc Ock.

Speaking of the Spidey movies, Sam Raimi has just recently said in an interview that The Dark Knight has raised the bar for comic book movies, something which is influencing his making of Spider-Man 4: http://movies.yahoo.com/news/movies.ap.org/spidey-guy-raimi-says-dark-knight39-has-upped-ante-ap

And he's totally right, IMO. TDK did raise the bar. Glad to see other comic book movie directors are recognizing that.

 

[Ryan]

I'm probably not communicating my opnion clear. I have NO issue with the Joker being a scene stealer. I have no issue with any villain being a scene stealer in any past, present or future Batman movies. The Batman Rogue's gallery is a big part of the enjoyment of Batman movies and comics. That however does not mean that Batman cannot also have equally as memorable scenes in a movie. Case in point, watch any numerous Clint Eastwood movies. He has played characters in Westerns which could easliy fall into that Batman vigilante line. Watch action movies with Bronson,Stallone, Van Damme, Seagal, Willis,take your pick. They have played reluctant heros in situations they did not predict they would be in. The central focus of their movies, and even in their sequels (Die hard 1,,2,3) have them at the center of the film, delivering some of the best lines and best moments. Again, I'm not asking for Batman to have every scene or rule the movie. Equality is all I was looking for, especially when in Batman Begins he had really been established so well. I reread the Long Halloween last night. I breezed through The Dark Knight Returns as well just to get my head straight. Both of those novels, which many seem to cite as great Batman stories, have Batman as the focus. If I had a complaint about Batman Begins I suppose I could say that Batman dominated his adversairies too much. Hence why I was looking forward to the Joker giving him a legitimate challenge on screen. Was TDK a great movie? I liked it alot. Did Batman have the most memorable scenes outside of the Batpod? In my opnion, no. Did the Joker have the most memorable scenes? Hands down, and good for him. Perhaps if TDK could have gone on about another hour, I could have seen Batman even it out, but unforutnately I will probably have to wait for a third film for him to redeem his pressence onscreen.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The Joker is a scene stealer. Always has been, always will be. He's an outlandish, in your face character, completely psychotic, and witty as hell. He was guaranteed to be the most memorable, and a scene stealer. People were predicting that from the moment we heard he was officially going to be in it.

Batman's impact was just fine for TDK. Villains often play out themes that mirror the heros, and serve the hero's story. The Spider-Man movies do it all the time. Particularly with Green Goblin and Doc Ock.

Speaking of the Spidey movies, Sam Raimi has just recently said in an interview that The Dark Knight has raised the bar for comic book movies, something which is influencing his making of Spider-Man 4: http://movies.yahoo.com/news/movies.ap.org/spidey-guy-raimi-says-dark-knight39-has-upped-ante-ap

And he's totally right, IMO. TDK did raise the bar. Glad to see other comic book movie directors are recognizing that.

Eh, I thought Begins raised the bar in the first place. Raimi apparently didn't learn much from it, judging by the SM3 abomination. But hey, if he feels he's gotta up the ante, then good...I've been wanting them to up the ante in the Spidey movies ever since Begins came out.

 

[Dark Guardian]

Eh, I thought Begins raised the bar in the first place. Raimi apparently didn't learn much from it, judging by the SM3 abomination. But hey, if he feels he's gotta up the ante, then good...I've been wanting them to up the ante in the Spidey movies ever since Begins came out.

Indeed, isn't it sad how quickly people have forgotten the virtues of Begins and how it used to be hailed as the "best reboot of a franchise ever!" and "great fresh start for Batman" "Sets the bar for reboots everywhere" I remember when that was what people used to say, now its like Begins is just some sad cousin to TDK, mentioned as an afterthought. "Oh yeah, there was this movie before, but its not as good." Hurm...

 

[The Joker]

Eh, I thought Begins raised the bar in the first place. Raimi apparently didn't learn much from it, judging by the SM3 abomination. But hey, if he feels he's gotta up the ante, then good...I've been wanting them to up the ante in the Spidey movies ever since Begins came out.

Raimi had no creative control on Spider-Man 3. The studio forced Venom and the whole symbiote storyline on him. And Gwen Stacy, too.

Also Ryan, a bit of friendly advice: Use paragraphs, because your posts are a bit of a chore to read as large blocks of text.

 

[Ryan]

Only a chore for those that choose to read them Funny thing about the whole Spiderman connection. I feel the same way about the Spiderman films as I do about the first series of Batman films...indifference. I still feel that have failed to capture the elements that made the comic book so enduring. I did however really enjoy Spiderman 2 the first time I saw it. Haven't had the urge to watch it again however. Batman begins and tdk however, have burned out my dvd player

 

[El Payaso]

Eh, I thought Begins raised the bar in the first place. Raimi apparently didn't learn much from it, judging by the SM3 abomination.

That has a simple answer. Raimi didn't think Batman Begins raised any bar and thus it wasn't an influence for him. And I happen to agree with him. TDK is another story.

For me, when I pay to buy a Batman comic, I expect to have him in it. If I pay for a Batman movie, I want to see him in. I have never subscribed to the Hollywood premise where the villains make the film. I have no problems with filmakers trying something different by trying to add depth to a film ala No Country for Old Men. However, as a fan of Batman, I wish that people had walked out of the theatre saying "hey, remember that one scene when Batman did this..." as much as people seem to remember all the Joker moments. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that Batman had to have as much screen time as Batman Begins. For all I know, Batman might have actually been on screen more in TDK. He may have more screen time then the Joker for all I know. I didn't run counter. What I am saying is, for me, when Batman was on screen I wish had more impactful scenes. Not scenes that are felt via transference through other characters. Again, just my opnion.

Well, you had Batman in TDK, that wasn't the problem. You have to consider that Ledger got this "post mortem" fame all over him right before the TDK's release. That added to his brilliant performance as Joker.

But I'd say what was "wrong" with Batman the character was that he needed better scenes somehow, not more screentime (which I think he had; more than Joker I mean). The new suit, the bat-voice, I think they played against the character. A character doesn't need more screentime or a self-centered story to be better or more memorable, just better scenes.

 

[redfirebird2008]

That has a simple answer. Raimi didn't think Batman Begins raised any bar and thus it wasn't an influence for him. And I happen to agree with him. TDK is another story.

He's never commented on Batman Begins so perhaps you shouldn't assume what he thinks of it.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Raimi had no creative control on Spider-Man 3. The studio forced Venom and the whole symbiote storyline on him. And Gwen Stacy, too.

Uh, the Sandman storyline was AWFUL and he had everything to do with it. The dialogue throughout the entire movie, co-written by he and his brother, was awful. The studio didn't force them to tell an awful Sandman story and use a lot of really bad dialogue throughout the movie. In fact, he said Sandman was apparently his favorite Spider-Man villain...which makes his portrayal of the character all the more pathetic considering it was a labor of love on his part.

Indeed, isn't it sad how quickly people have forgotten the virtues of Begins and how it used to be hailed as the "best reboot of a franchise ever!" and "great fresh start for Batman" "Sets the bar for reboots everywhere" I remember when that was what people used to say, now its like Begins is just some sad cousin to TDK, mentioned as an afterthought. "Oh yeah, there was this movie before, but its not as good." Hurm...

Don't worry, there's still plenty of us out there who love Begins just as much, if not more than TDK. What sucks is the number of "Joe Six Pack" moviegoers who went to see TDK because of the hype surrounding it without bothering to watch BB.

 

[The Joker]

Uh, the Sandman storyline was AWFUL and he had everything to do with it. The dialogue throughout the entire movie, co-written by he and his brother, was awful. The studio didn't force them to tell an awful Sandman story and use a lot of really bad dialogue throughout the movie. In fact, he said Sandman was apparently his favorite Spider-Man villain...which makes his portrayal of the character all the more pathetic considering it was a labor of love on his part.

The Sandman storyline had to be rewritten to coincide with the revenge theme of the movie that Venom and the whole symbiote storyline brought on it. So they came up with the Sandman/Uncle Ben plot. Bloody awful, I agree. But Raimi had to work with what was put in his lap. You can't make s*** shine.

You could tell from the watching it that his heart just wasn't in it. It was all so rushed, and thrown together. None of the new characters were given decent development. Even Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst seemed bored and tired with their characters.

And we seem to be going off topic here

 

[redfirebird2008]

The Sandman storyline had to be rewritten to coincide with the revenge theme of the movie that Venom and the whole symbiote storyline brought on it. So they came up with the Sandman/Uncle Ben plot. Bloody awful, I agree. But Raimi had to work with what was put in his lap.

You can't make s*** shine. You could tell from the watching it that his heart just wasn't in it. It was all so rushed, and thrown together. None of the new characters were given decent development. Even Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst seemed bored and tired with their characters.

Bored is a great word to describe it. Dunst especially had a really bored look on her face throughout most of the movie. I knew we were in for a bad movie right off the bat when they had the God awful idea of her singing, along with a cheesy line from Peter, "That's my girlfriend!" Ugh.

 

[Ryan]

"But I'd say what was "wrong" with Batman the character was that he needed better scenes somehow, not more screentime (which I think he had; more than Joker I mean). The new suit, the bat-voice, I think they played against the character. A character doesn't need more screentime or a self-centered story to be better or more memorable, just better scenes."

Exactly my point.

 

[El Payaso]

He's never commented on Batman Begins so perhaps you shouldn't assume what he thinks of it.

I'll assume based on the influence it had on him vs the influence of other movies (namely TDK).

If he bothered on commenting about how good TDK was (up to the point of admitting being influenced by it) but didn't do the same for BB, it's easy to put two and two together and conclude that whereas TDK had an impact on him (it raised the bar) BB did not have the same impact. And since you said "Raimi apparently didn't learn much from it [BB]" I get you agree with me.

Indeed, isn't it sad how quickly people have forgotten the virtues of Begins

It is more natural than sad. As I said on my first post, it is easy to forget something when you have something else with the very same ingredients but much better.

how it used to be hailed as the "best reboot of a franchise ever!" and "great fresh start for Batman" "Sets the bar for reboots everywhere"

In all honesty, how many reboots are out there? Batman Begins and The Incredible Hulk (which still can be seen as a loose sequel). So the "best reboot" title doesn't say much. But yes, it was a great fresh start for Batman. I mean, we were coming out from Schumacher movies and BB was so much better than that.

I remember when that was what people used to say, now its like Begins is just some sad cousin to TDK, mentioned as an afterthought. "Oh yeah, there was this movie before, but its not as good." Hurm...

I myself thought Begins standed out amongst superhero movies. But much of the dialogue was weak, the humour was crap and the fight were too. It was desirable that those elemnts were improved and they were in TDK.

"But I'd say what was "wrong" with Batman the character was that he needed better scenes somehow, not more screentime (which I think he had; more than Joker I mean). The new suit, the bat-voice, I think they played against the character. A character doesn't need more screentime or a self-centered story to be better or more memorable, just better scenes."

Exactly my point.

 

[Travesty]

I myself thought Begins standed out amongst superhero movies. But much of the dialogue was weak, the humour was crap and the fight were too. It was desirable that those elemnts were improved and they were in TDK.

Yeah, in TDK the dialogue was improved, the humor was almost nonexistent, or just on par with Begins, and the fighting seemed close to the same. What it lacked, was pacing and atmosphere. I wouldn't say TDK raised any bar, but is just an entirely different movie altogether. Sure, it had more hype, but that was due to people knowing Begins WAS good, had 2 EXTREMELY popular villains, and had a MUCH bigger promotion. I can't wait for what people think about it 5-10 years from now, when everything blows over. I know that the Begins hype was still in effect until TDK came out, so I know it wont start a decline until a new Batman movie comes out.

 

[Ryan]

I think that there were elements there were improved in TDK over BB and I think that other parts were at least on a par with Batman Begins. In the end, both were excellent movies and I've probably watched both movies more times then all of the other Batman movies combined since their releases over 10 years ago. I've probably watched both movies more then any other recent movie thats come to mind. However, getting back to the thread of "Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?", I simply enjoyed Batman Begins more simply because it prominantely featured my favourite character in Batman lore..that being Batman of course. It had brought closure to the villains and the threats they posed in the movie, hence showing Batman's superiority. Lastly, the ending with Gordon/Batman/Joker card has to be one of the best endings to a movie I've seen in ages. I didn't get that same sense of excitement when I saw the Dark Knight ride off on the Batpod in TDK. Perhaps if I knew that a third Batman was guaranteed and they would have left the loose ends open, instead of trying to tie them up neatly in the last 3 minutes of the film. The Empire Strikes Back comes to mind as being a pretty dark film, with alot of unanswered questions at its conclusion that seemed to work really well with me upon its conclusion. I was at Chapters book store tonight and saw some old Batman Begin photobooks for kids to read, but have yet to see a TDK one. Guess its hard to sell books where the hero rides off into the sunset as a psuedo martyr/supposed cop killer nowadays. I know, I know, this isn't your grandfather's Batman.

 

[Bim]

*raises her hand*

I still like BB more than TDK, but i do like both. Begins just flows better for me and i feel was overall a more solid story, but TDK does have stronger individual performances.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I think that there were elements there were improved in TDK over BB and I think that other parts were at least on a par with Batman Begins. In the end, both were excellent movies and I've probably watched both movies more times then all of the other Batman movies combined since their releases over 10 years ago. I've probably watched both movies more then any other recent movie thats come to mind. However, getting back to the thread of "Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?", I simply enjoyed Batman Begins more simply because it prominantely featured my favourite character in Batman lore..that being Batman of course. It had brought closure to the villains and the threats they posed in the movie, hence showing Batman's superiority. Lastly, the ending with Gordon/Batman/Joker card has to be one of the best endings to a movie I've seen in ages. I didn't get that same sense of excitement when I saw the Dark Knight ride off on the Batpod in TDK. Perhaps if I knew that a third Batman was guaranteed and they would have left the loose ends open, instead of trying to tie them up neatly in the last 3 minutes of the film. The Empire Strikes Back comes to mind as being a pretty dark film, with alot of unanswered questions at its conclusion that seemed to work really well with me upon its conclusion. I was at Chapters book store tonight and saw some old Batman Begin photobooks for kids to read, but have yet to see a TDK one. Guess its hard to sell books where the hero rides off into the sunset as a psuedo martyr/supposed cop killer nowadays. I know, I know, this isn't your grandfather's Batman.

The endings to BB and TDK are my two favorite movie endings ever. The BB ending is the best cliffhanger ever because of what was delivered in TDK from Mr. Ledger (and the script...Nolan brothers did a great job with the Joker IMHO).

And Batman Begins remains the best Batman movie ever. I don't think it's a better movie overall than TDK. I put them on the same level, but BB is still the only Batman movie that properly focused on Batman. I hope the next movie goes back to giving Batman more focus in the story than the villains.

 

[Doc Samson]

The endings to BB and TDK are my two favorite movie endings ever. The BB ending is the best cliffhanger ever because of what was delivered in TDK from Mr. Ledger (and the script...Nolan brothers did a great job with the Joker IMHO).

And Batman Begins remains the best Batman movie ever. I don't think it's a better movie overall than TDK. I put them on the same level, but BB is still the only Batman movie that properly focused on Batman. I hope the next movie goes back to giving Batman more focus in the story than the villains.

You hit the nail on the head. BB is the best "Batman" movie ever, as it should be, since it's focused totally on his upbringing and journey. Bale had alot more to do and alot more time to do it in.

TDK is really a crime thriller dressed up as a superhero movie, almost everything about it is totally different from your traditional hero flick, which is part of the appeal to begin with. Hopefully the next one can mix both extremes to become something greater...

 

[WompuM]

This seems like an Empire/New Hope argument. Obviously Empire and TDK are better, larger, more dynamic films than their predecessors, but you have to recognize that they wouldn't exist without BB or NH. TDK and Empire dont make me feel all tingly inside like BB and NH do.

 

[Ryan]

"TDK and Empire dont make me feel all tingly inside like BB and NH do."
Good point. Had TDK been Nolan's first effort on the Batman franchise, I don't believe that I would have been enamoured with the franchise as much I have been. Growing up on Batman comics, I never felt that even the almight Burton had captured for me the essense of the Batman character. Gadgets aside, Batman was the ultimate of human potential. Physically sound with a mind to match. It's only through this commonly held perception of Batman that people can even honestly and yet childishly debate who would win in a fight between Batman vs Superman. That's how smart, resourceful and tough this character is. The villains for me, have always served the purpose of demonstrating how incredible Batman is, and not the other way around (despite what most of the films would have you believe). You can pump up the Joker all you want, and I love that character too, how crazy he is, unremorselful and any other adjectives you want to throw his way, but he simply isn't Batman and he doesn't need to be.

 

[redfirebird2008]

...and any other adjectives you want to throw his way...

Smart. The Joker is brilliant. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to give Batman such a hard time so frequently. t:

 

[Charlie The Red]

While I love TDK, I have to admit that BB has a certain level of mystique and charm that its successor lacked. There's a possibility that it could just be a temporary burn-out with TDK though. I saw that movie so many times last year that I'm a little bit worn out on it.

Same thing happened with BB though, but when that burnout let up I started to enjoy it even more. BB was a great film that I think will be remembered for a long time. There's a certain level of heart in BB that I think is missing from TDK.

It could also be the fact that BB is more of an action-adventure hybrid while TDK is more of a crime-thriller/drama.

They're both great films, but I'll never forget the sensation I got when that Batman Begins teaser trailer came online for the first time. Great flick.

 

[Doc Samson]

I think another element to consider is the fact that we're dealing with a young Batman, and how his level of experience affected both films.

In BB, his youth was an advantage to the story, he was more aggressive because he was being proactive, taking the fight to the mob, announcing his presence. In a sense, it made his character more in line with what we expect from Batman, being strong & decisive.

On the flipside, Batman's youth plays against him in TDK. He never expected to deal with anyone like the Joker, so for the whole film he's almost always offguard and being defensive. He's reactive, racing around Gotham trying to diffuse the Joker's schemes, not seeming at all in control of the situation, which is understandable for his first encounter with the Clown Prince of Crime.

I would expect we get a much more refined & mature Batman in the next film, which in turn should restore many of his more traditional traits that were lacking in TDK, and in Nolan's version of Batman period. He should be more intelligent, maybe a bit colder & edgier, and certainly better prepared, no matter who the villain is.

 

[griffolyon12]

I could see how some would like BB more so than TDK, as for me I tend to put them on the same level. While TDK was an excellent crime drama, BB was a superb summer popcorn adventure. Both are so different in general style that it is hard for me to say which I like better, cause depending on what type of mood I'm in (be it one looking for sheer entertainment, or something a tad smarter) I'd flip-flop back-and-forth between the two. So taking that into account I'd say they're equal in my book. Here's hoping that Nolan might meld the two styles together in the 3rd one and it could pull ahead of the pack and I might have a genuine favorite in the series, instead of having it a tie.

 

[Ryan]

I think in the movie world that the Joker gets way too much credit as an adversary of Batman. I think the Joker is everyone's favourite Batman villain, as he is mine, but I don't think that the gives the Batman the biggest run for his money. The Joker is chaos, madness, craziness the complete opposite of Batman which makes him an interesting foil. He's also colourful and comedic, again both the opposite of Batman. A psychopathic criminal clown must have been pretty revolutionary in its day and it continues to be so.
However I've never really had the feeling that Batman was ever worried or felt helpless that he couldn't beat the Joker, at least from the comic book world. Sure he's an annoyance and he's a top tier villain due to some of his more violent acts but nothing that Batman can't handle. Obviously Batman can't cure the Joker of his ways, which can be said of all the villains, but he's never had trouble in outwitting him or out fighting him.
Someone like Ra's, who I found very boring in the comics, to me always represented a far more forbidable enemy. But, again he doesn't get the same amount of press because he doesn't have the same pressence. Again, the Joker is my favourite Bat character, but just because he's the coolest doesn't and shouldn't mean that he has to be impervious to Batman. The Joker is great because of who he is, not because he's the greatest challenge to Batman.