Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[Eric Brooks]

I could see how some would like BB more so than TDK, as for me I tend to put them on the same level. While TDK was an excellent crime drama, BB was a superb summer popcorn adventure. Both are so different in general style that it is hard for me to say which I like better, cause depending on what type of mood I'm in (be it one looking for sheer entertainment, or something a tad smarter) I'd flip-flop back-and-forth between the two. So taking that into account I'd say they're equal in my book. Here's hoping that Nolan might meld the two styles together in the 3rd one and it could pull ahead of the pack and I might have a genuine favorite in the series, instead of having it a tie.

I almost fully agree with this

just that I would argue that the first half of Begins is not a "summer popcorn adventure". That aspect didn't kick in until he put the suit on

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Batman Begins is the more enjoyable movie, for me. TDK is better written, acted and technically better, but it's a bit heavy. I have to be in the mood to watch it, whereas with BB I could watch it any time.

 

[El Payaso]

I think in the movie world that the Joker gets way too much credit as an adversary of Batman. I think the Joker is everyone's favourite Batman villain, as he is mine, but I don't think that the gives the Batman the biggest run for his money. The Joker is chaos, madness, craziness the complete opposite of Batman which makes him an interesting foil. He's also colourful and comedic, again both the opposite of Batman. A psychopathic criminal clown must have been pretty revolutionary in its day and it continues to be so.
However I've never really had the feeling that Batman was ever worried or felt helpless that he couldn't beat the Joker, at least from the comic book world. Sure he's an annoyance and he's a top tier villain due to some of his more violent acts but nothing that Batman can't handle. Obviously Batman can't cure the Joker of his ways, which can be said of all the villains, but he's never had trouble in outwitting him or out fighting him.
Someone like Ra's, who I found very boring in the comics, to me always represented a far more forbidable enemy. But, again he doesn't get the same amount of press because he doesn't have the same pressence. Again, the Joker is my favourite Bat character, but just because he's the coolest doesn't and shouldn't mean that he has to be impervious to Batman. The Joker is great because of who he is, not because he's the greatest challenge to Batman.

More disagree I could not be.

The Joker is THE pain in the rear for Batman. Go read A Death in the Family and tell me Batman can handle him and be cool. Batman has felt so helpless and worried about him that went straight to his cell to beg him to stop (Killing Joke).

All of that was brilliantly portrayed in TDK. It's perfectly portrayed also how even Ra's was an enemy that was able to be led. Batman understood Ra's (and the rest of the criminals for that matter) but with the Joker it was a whole new story. Ra's had ideals and with ideals you - and therefore your fears and weaknesses - can be defined. Joker had none, and if he had them he could change them in a snap. Batman simply can't get where is this guy coming from and that is what makes him the greatest foe in Batman's world (apart from the ever-appealing mix of clown and killer). The only way to stop him is to kill him and that's the only thing Batman can't do. The dramatic dynamic between them can't be any better.

Joker is the coolest but he is precisely because he is impervious to Batman. Sure, in the end Batman should win but it will never be the complete victory; Joker cannot ever be reformed. He is the living proof that Batman's mission in this life will never be completely fulfilled. He's the reason why Batman must reassert his ideals every second of his life.

And the fact that he had to elaborate an epic lie with Gordon at the end of the movie (blaming himself for multiple killings) just to prevent the Joker's victory to be 'real' makes TDK not only better than most of Batman comics I've read, but also a brilliant movie because it could take the Joker-Batman relationship to a higher level. And it did it only elaborating what was in the comics already.

The Joker is great because of who he is, and that is the greatest challenge to Batman.




Now I don't mean that the Joker being such a great character so brilliantly written in TDK makes Batman Begins any worse of a movie than it is. Begins is weak for me because of weak writing and bad action, not because it didn't have the Joker in it.

 

[Ryan]

My point is the difference between the movie vs comic version of the Joker. In movies and particularly in TDK, he is presented as this omnipresent seven steps ahead of the game kind of foe. They have him as if he knows the entire script and how everything unfolds well ahead of everyone else in the movie. That'd be fine if it was Ras, Hugo Strange or maybe the Riddler but the Joker was never known for his intellect, but rather, his lack of. His sense of mania, flamboyancy and disgregard for rules is what makes him popular not the fact that he is master mind criminal like Lex Luthor.
I don't disagree that the Joker is Batman's main pain as I pointed that out earlier. He is the Yin to Batman's Yang. I would not go so far to say that Batman was worried. I can't say i've seen too many books where Batman was ever 'worried" If anything, as I"m actually looking at the Killing Joke in front of me, Batman is "worried" that he's going to kill the Joker. He's not worried he can't handle him. He's tired of the game and he's looking for a way to end it.
Getting back to the thread and your reference to "the killing Joke' it simply proves both my points. I liked Batman Begins because it ends with finality over the villains in the film. In the Killing Joke, what people regard as the greatest Joker book ever written, Batman also wins with finality at the end. Sure in both the book and in BB, we understand that offscreen the villains have not reformed and will return. But that's the fun of comics and the first Bat movie. In TDK, we get an ending where Batman scrambles away from the Joker without any last say or action that defines his win. Only later, in some sort of bigger philosophical move at the end of tdk does Batman get his ..cough cough...win...by taking the heat upon himself and say he's a cop killer. Can't say i've read alot of comics with endings like that. Either way, Nolan's Joker gets the win as I would assume if Dent took the fall, Joker wins. If Batman goes down as a cop killer, Joker might not technically win, but I'm sure he'd enjoy the fact that the heat has been turned up on his foe.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Joker is Batman's greatest villain simply because he does not give one **** about anything.

How do you defeat a man who has no fear? How do you stop a man who wants nothing? How do you understand a man who has no real motives?

Those are the questions that cannot be answered. Therefore, he is the ULTIMATE villain.

He does what he does because he wants to. No other reasons. All of Batmans other villains have reason for what they do, they can be figured out and ultimately, stopped. You can't stop a man who has no reason to do what he does in the first place.

What is more frightening? A villain who does what he does for money? Or a villain who does what he does simply because he can and feels like it?

 

[Ryan]

Alot of these theories on how the Joker behaves acts comes from the new tdk film. If we are using that movie and its example of the Joker, then all the above posts/comments are absolutely correct. In Tdk, the Joker is something above everything else in the film. Which is exactly why I like Batman Begins over TDK. Quite simply, its a better presentation of Batman and how things are presented in the comic book world. Aside from "Killing Joke", I"ve rarely read a comic or series of comics that had reduced Batman to a backdrop to a story. I never remember anyone making these "he doesn't care about anything, that he's emotionless, that he's above temptation" when the Nicholson played the character. In fact if you've been reading Batman comics for the last year or 2 years, the Joker has hardly played any role at all in the Batman universe (aside from his own graphic novel).
I don't mind strong Bat villains that challenge Bats, and I don't mind them getting 'wins" over him during the movie. But to make him into something otherwordly, into some sort of zombie hulk, who feels nothing is too much a stretch for me.

 

[The Joker]

Joker is Batman's greatest villain simply because he does not give one **** about anything.

How do you defeat a man who has no fear? How do you stop a man who wants nothing? How do you understand a man who has no real motives?

Those are the questions that cannot be answered. Therefore, he is the ULTIMATE villain.

He does what he does because he wants to. No other reasons. All of Batmans other villains have reason for what they do, they can be figured out and ultimately, stopped. You can't stop a man who has no reason to do what he does in the first place.

What is more frightening? A villain who does what he does for money? Or a villain who does what he does simply because he can and feels like it?

Very nicely put, Ace

 

[Ryan]

Put simply, other then in TDK, I would love to see any book, previous film or tv show where the Joker comes off so strongly? I mean, there's even a thread somewhere on the forum debating whether the Joker won in that movie, and a think a valid arguement can be made for either case. Show me some other superhero movie where the villain comes off so strong and dominates a film to the point that the actual hero is barely present. The only comparison I can think of is the empire strikes back where Vader seemingly wins in that film, leaving the 'hero's' in a mess at the end. But at least that film had left enough loose ends open to the inveitable 3rd film to tie them all up. Nolan has not made such a promise. In fact, as there were very little links between Bat begins and tdk, I doubt Nolan will dwell on Tdk too much in a third film. He seems to like each film a new beginning. Back on thread, its for those reasons why I prefer bat begins over tdk.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Put simply, other then in TDK, I would love to see any book, previous film or tv show where the Joker comes off so strongly?

Batman: Return of the Joker. Batman: The Killing Joke.

Show me some other superhero movie where the villain comes off so strong and dominates a film to the point that the actual hero is barely present.

That wouldn't be a valid comparison, because Batman was present for all the major events in TDK.

In fact, as there were very little links between Bat begins and tdk

Apart from all the same characters, except Ra's and Flass, returning. Joker, Gordon, the Mayor, Harvey etc mentioning Batman's effect on Gotham with how he has the criminals running scared now etc. Bruce and Rachel talking about the time in begins when she told him when Gotham no longer needed Batman they could be together. Rachel mentioning that Gordon is a friend of hers. Harvey Dent mentioning Carmine Falcone in Arkham, and now Maroni is running the Falcone family, Alfred mentioning Wayne Manor being rebuilt. Oh and Scarecrow being on the loose due to his escape in Begins.

Yeah, hardly any links at all there, Ryan

I doubt Nolan will dwell on Tdk too much in a third film.

If your above logic is anything to go by, I'd say you're way off with that assumption.

 

[Travesty]

That wouldn't be a valid comparison, because Batman was present for all the major events in TDK.

Yeah, but just because he was there, doesn't mean his presence was felt. Its just like a bestman at a wedding. He was there, standing right next to the groom the entire time, and everybody saw/talked to him, but that doesn't mean the attention was on the bestman, it was on the groom. It doesn't matter to me how much screen time Batman had, but how much his presence was felt, and it seems a bit strange when the movie is about him. It would be like going to a wedding, and having everybody forget about the grrom, and just remember the bestman.

Do you see what he's saying?

 

[Ryan]

Doc oc. A person could go watch Dark Knight without having seen Batman Begins and get along just fine. You'd have a hard time doing that with The Empire Strikes back without seeing star wars. Just because it has numerous returning characters doesn't mean that the 2 movies are intertwined. Of course there are some links. I didn't say it didn't have any. In fact I said there were very little links. Something like flashbacks of Wayne's parents being murdered would have been nice....they are a BIG part of the Batman mythos no? They didn't mention the arrowhead that was shared between Rachel and Bruce. They didn't mention the effects of the gas on the people of Gotham. Look how little time was even spent on Scarecrow. Nolan wanted to get moving into the new movie as fast as possible. In fact the look of the film is totally different between each one. Which I don't have a problem with. Just didn't like how the ending was done. Alot happened in tdk. Too much to just have Gordon sum it all up with a speech at the end to make everything all better. I would have rather they left Gotham in total disaray as cliffhanger for the third. As for your examples of the Joker being strong. Yep he is a strong character in those books but only against the other weaker characters. He doesnt' run rings around Bats as he does in TDK, right to the end.

 

[El Payaso]

My point is the difference between the movie vs comic version of the Joker. In movies and particularly in TDK, he is presented as this omnipresent seven steps ahead of the game kind of foe. They have him as if he knows the entire script and how everything unfolds well ahead of everyone else in the movie.

Same thing he is in comics. And big part of why he is so scary beyond the way he looks. Joker is known for being always one step ahead. A kind of super-sanity as he was described in Arkham Asylum.

That'd be fine if it was Ras, Hugo Strange or maybe the Riddler but the Joker was never known for his intellect, but rather, his lack of.

What are you saying, that insanity takes your intellect away? Don’t you know how some psychos are specially gifted in their intellects?

His sense of mania, flamboyancy and disgregard for rules is what makes him popular not the fact that he is master mind criminal like Lex Luthor.

In fact it is both. And even when it is those things what made him popular that doesn’t rule out other important characteristics.

I don't disagree that the Joker is Batman's main pain as I pointed that out earlier. He is the Yin to Batman's Yang. I would not go so far to say that Batman was worried. I can't say i've seen too many books where Batman was ever 'worried" If anything, as I"m actually looking at the Killing Joke in front of me, Batman is "worried" that he's going to kill the Joker. He's not worried he can't handle him. He's tired of the game and he's looking for a way to end it.

Batman’s tired of the game of many of his enemies I’m sure. But it is only the Joker the one who worries him so much that he arranges a special interview just to beg him to stop.

That said I guess you’ve never read A Death in the Family. After the death of Jason Todd and Joker having diplomatic immunity I’d say Batman was more than merely “worried.” He even punched Superman – doing a lot of harm to his pown hand in the process – out of rage and frustration. He was really overwhelmed by Joker’s actions and plans. And the clown himself was just smiling at him.

Again, after killing Robin, crippling Batgirl and kidnapping Gordon, I’m sure Batman was more than worried about what Joker can do. Name another villiain that has been able to get away with all that.

Getting back to the thread and your reference to "the killing Joke' it simply proves both my points. I liked Batman Begins because it ends with finality over the villains in the film. In the Killing Joke, what people regard as the greatest Joker book ever written, Batman also wins with finality at the end. Sure in both the book and in BB, we understand that offscreen the villains have not reformed and will return. But that's the fun of comics and the first Bat movie. In TDK, we get an ending where Batman scrambles away from the Joker without any last say or action that defines his win. Only later, in some sort of bigger philosophical move at the end of tdk does Batman get his ..cough cough...win...by taking the heat upon himself and say he's a cop killer. Can't say i've read alot of comics with endings like that. Either way, Nolan's Joker gets the win as I would assume if Dent took the fall, Joker wins. If Batman goes down as a cop killer, Joker might not technically win, but I'm sure he'd enjoy the fact that the heat has been turned up on his foe.

Absolutely. And that’s why TDK is better than many comic books. Whereas some comic books end things in a vague way, truth is that Batman’s victories over Joker are always temporary and in no way significative. And TDK assumed that.

At the beginning of The Killing Joke, Joker is in jail devoted to find his way out (well in fact he has escaped already) and start killing people. By the end of it, the scenario is exactly the same. The same Joker could escape first, he will be in the future again. Batman achieved nothing but maybe to save a few lives that Joker could have taken if he wasn’t caught. But Barbara Gordon is crippled and Comm. Gordon has another tragedy in his life that won’t go away. The damage is done. And that’s big part of what Joker wanted.

TDK takes this and re-imagines it in a realistic way. Things don’t end with a bunch of cops taking Joker to jail; the damage he does lingers on and the movie decides not to ignore this for the sake of the movie goer leaving the theater with a so-called uplifting feeling. Joker wins in an important way and he knows he has won. What Batman does – in a more than questionable way – is damage control to prevent Joker’s actions to affect/hurt more people that they already have. This is an aspect that some comic books have comfortably gotten rid of simply because – as you say - they prefer to ignore it sometimes so we can have this “hero always wins in the end” feeling. But by considering the whole of the situation and the darkest and bitterest bits of it in TDK, Batman has become a new kind of hero and the legend of the character has made it to a new level. Batman knows now that his ideals are fallible so he sacrifices himself for the sake of a greater good. The idea behind the symbol is now more important than the symbol itself.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Joker is a criminal master mind. He has always had ridiculously methodical plans in the comics that could be pulled off by no one else. Hell there has been some cases where he has planned things out months in advance.

The Joker has forced Batman to question his one rule many times in the comics too. I remember times when Batman is like "Is it worth keeping my rule? Am I responsible for all the people Joker has killed because I won't kill him".

 

[Ryan]

Hi again. Not to beat it to death, but most of the reasons why you like TDK are why I don't like TDK over Batman Begins. The thread is based upon which film we like better. I'm a Batman fan first and foremost. If your a huge Joker mark, Riddler fan etc then there will continually be a difference of opnion. I honestly don't care what villain is featured in the Batman comic, tv show or movie as long as it has Batman in it and that he is above all characters in the story. He's supposed to represent the ultimate human speciman. Mentally and physically he has been protrayed throughout history as being ahead of the villain. I have zero problems with villains posing a threat and even ticking Batman off. Yes, I've read Death in the Family, but I"ve also read of course The Long Halloween, Year one, Dark Victory, The Dark Knight Returns and The Dark Knight strikes again. See how Batman breaks the Jokers neck in The Dark returns, which some argue is the greastest Batman book ever written? Batman gets the last word. Long Halloween? Joker is left laying, out cold. In fact in most of the greatest books ever written about Batman, the Joker is not this memphisto character as he appears in TDK. Which again, I'd have no problem with, if Batman had in some way, face to face, finished the argument with a knock out punch. Sure, its not politically correct or the high road. But I'd have liked it alot better then him running off and faking to be a cop killer.
It comes down to matter of opnion. I'm huge fan of the Batman character and that is why it didn't matter to me that lesser villains like the Scarecrow and Ras were in Batman Begins. Batman the character carried that movie and disproved Hollywood's philosophy that the villains make the movies. Had it not been for the success of Batman Begins, and the reinvention of Batman and how they proved how interesting he is, then TDK would have ceased to have existed. I'm really hoping that if there is a third act, that Nolan does not go down that road one more time and have the Riddler or whoever else is being promoted, to rule the film with Batman in the backdrop again. Batman begins proves he doesn't have to.

 

[Eric Brooks]

joker is batman's greatest villain simply because he does not give one **** about anything.

How do you defeat a man who has no fear? How do you stop a man who wants nothing? How do you understand a man who has no real motives?

Those are the questions that cannot be answered. Therefore, he is the ultimate villain.

He does what he does because he wants to. No other reasons. All of batmans other villains have reason for what they do, they can be figured out and ultimately, stopped. You can't stop a man who has no reason to do what he does in the first place.

What is more frightening? A villain who does what he does for money? Or a villain who does what he does simply because he can and feels like it?

qft

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ryan

Batman did get the advantage over Joker in the end if you think about it. Sure he didn't knock him out or whatever, but that would just be a generic and completely unoriginal way to end a comic book movie.

Batman proved to Joker that he is not like him, and that Gotham is not like him. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Batman caught Joker, Joker is now locked up.

You notice the look on Joker's face when he realizes that he is in fact alone? He looks heart broken, he looks defeated. Well, as close to defeated as a man like Joker can be.

 

[Ryan]

How do you defeat and stop a man like the Joker? By being Batman. Nuff said.
Look, all villains never stop doing the bad things they do (unless they get killed). The heroes never truly stop the bad guys and the bad guys never fully get away with commiting the crimes. That's what the comic books are all about. But to make the Joker into something otheworldly that can't be touched like Apokolips or Magneto is laughable. Its doubtful the majority of the public would pick the Joker over the Riddler or Luthor for intellect. Its doubtful the majority of the public would pick the Joker for his fight skills over Ras or Deathstroke. However, I'm sure that the majority of the public love the Joker because he's just so different and interesting. And what's wrong with liking him for that? Why does he need to be smarter then the World's Greatest Detective. He doesn't. I'm all for updating. Sure make the Joker more violent. Let him wear makeup instead of having permawhite skin. Even do away with the acid squirting flower. But trying to say he's always ahead of Batman, that he's smarter then Batman, that he can take Batman in a fight, and that Batman is scared/worried/nervous abou the Joker goes against most of the history of the greatest Batman novels ever written. The only thing Batman is scared of is wiping the floor with that clown once and for all. The only thing Batman fears is himself and what's he capable of doing.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yes, and Batman proved he was stronger than Joker in TDK but not letting him fall to his death. If Batman killed Joker there, Joker would of won. But he didn't.

So what's your problem?

 

[david icke]

See how Batman breaks the Jokers neck in The Dark returns, which some argue is the greastest Batman book ever written? Batman gets the last word. Long Halloween? Joker is left laying, out cold. In fact in most of the greatest books ever written about Batman, the Joker is not this memphisto character as he appears in TDK.

The Joker breaks his own neck in TDKR, Batman starts to but stops as he can't bring himself to do it. The Joker does it so that people will think Batman did it.

 

[The Joker]

A person could go watch Dark Knight without having seen Batman Begins and get along just fine.

That goes for most sequals actually. Anything of importance from the previous movie is always mentioned, or flashbacked, or explained in a sequal in the event that some viewers didn't see the first movie.

What exactly from Begins did you want put in TDK that was so vital that you'd have to watch Begins in order to understand what it was? Begins was basically Batman's origin story. Ra's Al Ghul's story had no place in TDK. It was all wrapped up in Begins. Some people might wonder who Scarecrow was, and what he sprayed on the fake Batman, or what he was selling to the mob. But it wasn't vital to know.

Like most good sequals, TDK didn't alienate it's audience by having them lost if they didn't watch the original. Watching Begins would certainly enhance the viewing experience of TDK. Same with watching T1 before watching T2, or Spider-Man 1 before Spider-Man 2, or Alien before Aliens etc.

 

[Ryan]

You missed my point Joker. I never said the 2 had to be connected. Someone else had said that they were, and I agree with your points that most movies follow the way that Batman Begins and TDK did. I had zero problems with the 2 films not being closely connected. Someone else made the claim that they were.
As for Knaves, what is your problem with my commentary? This is simply my view, which i'm entitled too, of why I prefer Batman Begins over TDK. It's my opnion and I'm simply stating it. I don't have to defend why I like one film over the other. I simply do, I stated my reasons why and thats the end. If you would like to state your reasons why you prefer one over the other, thats totally fine with me and you won't be getting an argument about it...because thats pointless. I have my tastes, you have yours and this thread is about which film do you like best.
I like Westerns, I like good old fashioned good guy wins bad guy loses. I got that in Batman Begins. In TDK, I don't want "think about" how Batman won. I want to see it. For example, when the Joker said "alittle fight in you, I like that" and Batman responds "then your gonna love me". I loved it! That's the Batman I wanted to see more of. I'm suspecting that's why they used in the trailer, because of how cool it was. I didn't exactly jump out of the seat when Batman saved the Joker from falling. He did it, and I expected him to do it. I didn't turn to my friends and hoot and holler and say wow that shows how strong Batman was. Again, I wanted to see what I saw in Batman Begins in TDK and I didn't get that out of the film. But thats the opnion I'm entitled too. I still think TDK was great, I still like the Joker, but I didn't like how they used Batman in the film on a whole and I thought the ending was a bit too philosophical for me. Some see strength and cheer when the good guy saves the bad guy, some cheer when they see the hero knock out the villain. I just happen to fall into the latter category.

 

[Ryan]

P.S. I'm done with this thread, as I think I added what was asked of us in the first place. I stated why I liked the one film over the other. I'm finding now, that these posts are becoming centered soley on acting my posts, rather then people actually stating their views of why they like which film better. Arguing about which is better is moot point as we all have and are entitled to our opnions no matter how much we disagree. Looking forward to new threads like this one! This for awhile, was fun and informative and now is becoming redundant for me. Thanks to everyone that posted.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hey Ryan I haven't got a problem with your views.

I'm just saying that Joker did not win out against Batman in the end. And I gave my reason why I thought so.

You said Joker in TDK won. I said I disagree and offered an explanation. You decide to not counter that fine. But don't say I'm telling you you're wrong, because I'm not.

I said that if Batman let Joker fall to his death, then Joker would of won because that is what Joker was trying to make Batman do. Break his "one rule". But Batman didn't break his one rule. So Joker didn't "win" in that respect.

This is a message board yes? You gotta expect people to question your opinions and disagree with you. That's the best thing about the place. If everyone agreed with everyone it would be very boring. Don't take it personally man

 

[Dark Guardian]

P.S. I'm done with this thread, as I think I added what was asked of us in the first place. I stated why I liked the one film over the other. I'm finding now, that these posts are becoming centered soley on acting my posts, rather then people actually stating their views of why they like which film better. Arguing about which is better is moot point as we all have and are entitled to our opnions no matter how much we disagree. Looking forward to new threads like this one! This for awhile, was fun and informative and now is becoming redundant for me. Thanks to everyone that posted.

Thus why I've left it alone too. I just don't have the time to rehash matters of personal opinion and defend them as though they were something else. Everything in this thread always boils down to opinions as to why you think which film is better, and unfortunately, the people who like Begins better are treated to a constant barrage of "Why do you think this? Thats not right! Its clearly this!" Instead of just being able to post reasons why you like Begins better than TDK and be done with it.

 

[TLH]

Batman Begins is the more enjoyable movie, for me. TDK is better written, acted and technically better, but it's a bit heavy. I have to be in the mood to watch it, whereas with BB I could watch it any time.

You captured exactly how I feel. TDK is bigger, heavier, and more robust, but I can't just pick it up and watch it the way I can Batman Begins.