Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[El Payaso]

If I want to watch the best Batman movie, I watch BATMAN '89!

I was about to say that myself.

 

[Mr. Earle]

If I want to watch the best Batman movie, I watch Begins. If I want to watch the better movie in general, I watch TDK.

Thirded. TDK was better in its execution, scope, etc. But it was still a Gotham crime drama.

Imho, Begins wasnt that inferior. Sure it had some Goyer one-liners, but it delivered the best comic book origin and kept us interested and entertained (while i fell asleep during Ironman's origin). And not just that, but it also gave us a third act with Scarecrow and Ras.
And for me the icing on the cake was the non linear storytelling. I loved that.
And btw, i noticed at the end credits that the story was written by Goyer alone. The script was by Chris and Goyer. So this whole wonderful story? It was Goyer's. The dude should get more credit.

 

[El Payaso]

Thirded. TDK was better in its execution, scope, etc. But it was still a Gotham crime drama.

Perfect description of a good serious Batman movie.

Imho, Begins wasnt that inferior. Sure it had some Goyer one-liners, but it delivered the best comic book origin and kept us interested and entertained (while i fell asleep during Ironman's origin). And not just that, but it also gave us a third act with Scarecrow and Ras.
And for me the icing on the cake was the non linear storytelling. I loved that.

A thrid act that wasn't too good. The choppy action sequences turned into a really unfollowable tiring thing, so Ra's vs Batman fight which should have been excellent was just... choppy.

And Scarecrow, sure. 10 seconds of him only to be defeated by a girl in a involuntarily comedic way.

And for me the icing on the cake was the non linear storytelling. I loved that.
And btw, i noticed at the end credits that the story was written by Goyer alone. The script was by Chris and Goyer. So this whole wonderful story? It was Goyer's. The dude should get more credit.

The credit where the credit is due.

Yes, Goyer did a FANTASTIC job with the story, but much of the dialogue, one-liners included, were so lame that makes you wonder about the classic idea-execution difference. The minute he was out of the dialogue writing the product became much much better.

 

[returntovoid]

^You and your hate for Batman Begins, El Payaso....

Batman begins was better!

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The credit where the credit is due.

Yes, Goyer did a FANTASTIC job with the story, but much of the dialogue, one-liners included, were so lame that makes you wonder about the classic idea-execution difference. The minute he was out of the dialogue writing the product became much much better.

And maybe its because Goyer didnt help write TDK that it was so serious.
Need i remind you that he convinced Nolan not to remove the cape and grapple gun? Maybe he would have added some "comicbookiness" to TDK if he was on board.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Wait... Nolan was toying with the idea to remove the cape and grappel gun?

Well why make a ****ing Batman movie? Why not just create a whole new vigilante called SeriousMan or Nolanite or something.

 

[Drz]

Wait... Nolan was toying with the idea to remove the cape and grappel gun?

Well why make a ****ing Batman movie? Why not just create a whole new vigilante called SeriousMan or Nolanite or something.

Thats why he got Goyer to help him with the story and ultimately help him with these things. He knew he wasn't a comic book fan enough so that was his exact reasons to hire a comic book expert to help him out.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well thank **** for Goyer then!

 

[Drz]

I also think it was because of Cillian Murphy that Scarecrow only had a hood and not a whole costume.

 

[Spoonman]

Thats why he got Goyer to help him with the story and ultimately help him with these things. He knew he wasn't a comic book fan enough so that was his exact reasons to hire a comic book expert to help him out.

Yes, and for TDK he got his brother, a comic book fan, Jonathan Nolan on board to help on the script. So i'd say is nice to know that Chris Nolan at least has some concern of not letting his vision completely throw away some of the comic book aspects. Its working for me at least so I hope for a similiar Nolan / Goyer or Nolan bros. colaboration for Batman 3, either way is fine for me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

All I can ask for in the next Batman is more WOW moments. More truly memorable action scenes and fight scenes.

Because it goes without saying that the plot and all that will be pretty tight. But with comic book characters, to be more specific, movies about comic book characters it isn't just about plot and characters, it's about those moments that make you feel like a giddy kid again. Those moments where you truly are like WOW!!!!!!! And honestly, TDK didn't have enough of those for me.

See with Begins there was so many scenes that had me grinning from ear to ear like a kid in a candy store.

In TDK? The Joker scenes and when the truck flipped... that's about it.

 

[Drz]

Yes, and for TDK he got his brother, a comic book fan, Jonathan Nolan on board to help on the script. So i'd say is nice to know that Chris Nolan at least has some concern of not letting his vision completely throw away some of the comic book aspects. Its working for me at least so I hope for a similiar Nolan / Goyer or Nolan bros. colaboration for Batman 3, either way is fine for me.

Goyer is helping out the Nolan brothers which is just great. I really hate how underrated Goyer is ever since TDK. I mean yeah BB was full of one-liners but Batman *is* full of one-liners for pete's sake! Even TDK had those.

 

[Brother Jack]

Thats why he got Goyer to help him with the story and ultimately help him with these things. He knew he wasn't a comic book fan enough so that was his exact reasons to hire a comic book expert to help him out.

I didn't think it was ever confirmed that Nolan was originally going to remove the cape and grapple gun.

 

[El Payaso]

And maybe its because Goyer didnt help write TDK that it was so serious.

I absolutely think so. That's why I say Nolan's bat-movies are better with Goyer just writing the story.

Need i remind you that he convinced Nolan not to remove the cape and grapple gun? Maybe he would have added some "comicbookiness" to TDK if he was on board.

Well, Sam Hamm also thought that the bat-cape was stupid. Hell, Kennetyh Johnson thought that Hulk being red made more sense than him being green. But you're crazy if you think that Nolan was going to get away with those things, even if Goyer wasn't around.

Need i remind you that he convinced Nolan not to remove the cape and grapple gun?

Joker was quite comic book-y. That and the man in a bat suit and his gadgets. And Goyer could have added his awful one-liners.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

This is not a question where I try to find a 'mediating' answer, unequivocally for me I think Batman Begins is the better film and a better 'Batman' film too. Things so easily could have gone wrong with the film. The extensive character study of why a man who goes to such lengths to become a masked crimefighter; why the use of bats and how one would assemble such an arsenal of gadgetry. The fact that Batman doesn't appear until half-way through the film. The lack of popular and recognisable villains such as Two-Face or the Joker. The Tumbler - a complete contrast to previous Batmobile designs. Rachel Dawes (an original character). All of those things and yet I found this film flawless and awe-inspiring.

The one key difference between BB and The Dark Knight is emotional resonance. The first film had tremendous emotional heft behind it. Christopher Nolan and David Goyer went to great lengths to illustrate a character with enormous pathos. You really felt the emotion and the pain of Bruce Wayne losing his parents. The sheer horror, despair and isolation of being that young hitherto innocent boy. That forlorn camera shot of young Bruce Wayne, helpless and paralysed by the shock and violence of losing his parents. Then later when Bruce has his opportunity for revenge. You sense the anger and turmoil within him, the look of fear, dread and hatred rolled into one expression. Superbly shown by Christian Bale. Throughout the whole film, the spiritual presence of Thomas and Martha Wayne permeate the screen and we never lose sight of why Bruce Wayne became Batman nor how powerful was the loss of his parents. A loss that made him dedicate his life to rid Gotham from a hive of scum and villainy.

There's also some great dialogue:

Henri Ducard: "A vigilante is simply a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification, he can be destroyed or locked up. If you make yourself more than just a man. If you devote yourself to an ideal and they can't stop you. You become something else entirely...a legend, Mr. Wayne."



Henri Ducard: "Compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share"

Bruce Wayne: "Which is why it's so important. It separates us from them"



Bruce Wayne: People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy and I can't do that as Bruce Wayne, as a man I'm flesh and blood I can be ignored I can be destroyed but as a symbol, as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting...something elemental, something terrifying.



Ra's Al Ghul: "Have you finally learned to do what is necessary?"

Bruce Wayne: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."



There's some amusing lines of dialogue too:

Maitre D: "Sir, the pool is for decoration, and your friends do not have swimwear.

Bruce Wayne : "Well, they're European."



Valet: "Nice car."

Bruce Wayne: "You should see my other one."



TDK whilst being a very good film did not elicit the same excitement or sense of elation that I experienced when watching BB for the first time. The Joker of course was played to perfection by Heath Ledger but as one would expect with such a character. He did take up much of the screen time. I also think he out-muscled Christian Bale in the acting stakes. Compared to the first film I found both Bruce Wayne and Batman to be boring characters. The supposed love Bruce Wayne had for Rachel Dawes, I couldn't see it and there wasn't much chemistry between the two. I did like the Harvey Dent/Two-Face character but the latter's emergence in the film was condensed and he could have been given more time. Which is why his transformation in a later film would have been preferable although given what was shown, Aaron Eckhart did very well with the material.

I preferred the frenetic fight choreography in BB. People always whinge about how one cannot see what is happening and yet that's the whole bloody point! You're not supposed to discern every single move. Batman moves about in the shadows. His actions are decisive and lightning fast. Compared to the fight scenes in the first film. I thought the way in which they were done in TDK felt plodding and pedestrian. I think the Tumbler was dismissed rather harshly. I know we see it a lot in the first film but it barely did anything in the second film. The Bat-pod was a clever and innovative design but didn't have the same presence (nor function) as the Tumbler.

There seemed to be some confusion by some as to the character of the Joker. He's a self-proclaimed agent of chaos. He likes to sow anarchy and purports to loathe order and those who embrace it. Likening them to schemers and that schemers lay plans and those plans are destined to betray and/or fail us eventually. However, his actions throughout the film were part of a grand artifice that he must've carefully planned. All of his traps were carefully detailed and went according to plan..."it's all....part of the plan!" Perhaps what the Nolans and Goyer wanted to convey was that all the malignant evil in the world comes down to chaos. Where 'evil' is not some cunning character sitting on a chair, twiddling its thumbs and plotting against everyone and everything. It's carnage, it's despair and indiscriminate on its rampage of destruction and misery.

When a person decides to strap a bomb to themselves for instance. They don't care who they hurt, they simply want to maim and kill. To inflict as much pain and suffering on others as possible. Chaos is unrestrained, volatile and ravenous. What's interesting is that the Joker may be reviled with himself and out of this contempt for his own person, he seeks to spread this chaotic existence to other. To impart the same state of oscillation to others. I suppose the chaos against order dynamic can be symbolic of the Joker's mindset. He reviles order and structure yet in order to unleash himself he devises these elaborate schemes. The very thing which he loathes and so he hates himself for it. As Batman says to the Joker "What were you trying to prove?! That deep down, everyone is as ugly as you? You're alone." His isolation makes sense if he exists in a state between the two opposing forces.

I remember when I watched the Mark Kermode (British film critic) review of TDK, he liked the film and thought it had some great ideas in it yet it didn't engage him fully. He believed it was an emotionally cool film experience for him. Which sums it up for me. I remember leaving the cinema feeling disappointed but not an outright dislike for the film. It simply didn't re-capture the 'magic' of the first film for me. Perhaps one element to the film which didn't help is of it being as a 'crime drama' rather than a more traditional/recognisable comic book film. What I didn't like were people assigning the film to a different genre. It is still a comic book film despite its different sensibilities. It seems as if some people had some odd snobbery against labelling superhero films 'comic book films'.

Here's a stunning video montage I found on YouTube. Perfectly melding segments from BB and TDK to make the latter's ending far more poignant and striking:

YouTube

 

[The Joker]

I absolutely think so. That's why I say Nolan's bat-movies are better with Goyer just writing the story.

Absolutely

 

[Mr. Earle]

Wait... Nolan was toying with the idea to remove the cape and grappel gun?

Well why make a ****ing Batman movie? Why not just create a whole new vigilante called SeriousMan or Nolanite or something.

Well thank **** for Goyer then!

That's what i always say.

All I can ask for in the next Batman is more WOW moments. More truly memorable action scenes and fight scenes.

Hey man, they flipped a truck alright? And they didnt use CGI! This is like... amazing... Nevermind seeing Prime fly through flying debris to grab the Fallen who is standing on top of a pyramid and as they fall blow up the pyramid. A truck flipped. In real life!

But with comic book characters, to be more specific, movies about comic book characters it isn't just about plot and characters, it's about those moments that make you feel like a giddy kid again. Those moments where you truly are like WOW!!!!!!! And honestly, TDK didn't have enough of those for me.

I was only amazed by the Hong Kong flying sequence and then the skyhook. Maybe owning the SWATs with the rope as well. But that's about it.

The one key difference between BB and The Dark Knight is emotional resonance. The first film had tremendous emotional heft behind it. Christopher Nolan and David Goyer went to great lengths to illustrate a character with enormous pathos. You really felt the emotion and the pain of Bruce Wayne losing his parents. The sheer horror, despair and isolation of being that young hitherto innocent boy. That forlorn camera shot of young Bruce Wayne, helpless and paralysed by the shock and violence of losing his parents. Then later when Bruce has his opportunity for revenge. You sense the anger and turmoil within him, the look of fear, dread and hatred rolled into one expression. Superbly shown by Christian Bale. Throughout the whole film, the spiritual presence of Thomas and Martha Wayne permeate the screen and we never lose sight of why Bruce Wayne became Batman nor how powerful was the loss of his parents. A loss that made him dedicate his life to rid Gotham from a hive of scum and villainy.

I really missed those emotional moments (and Zimmer's tender music that accompanied them) in TDK. We only got the scene that Bruce is mopping over Rachel's death and it didnt have any music (iirc) and it was too short.
Granted, not all films can be about Batman's parents, but i dunno, TDK was soooo unsentimental and cold.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

Hey man, they flipped a truck alright? And they didnt use CGI! This is like... amazing... Nevermind seeing Prime fly through flying debris to grab the Fallen who is standing on top of a pyramid and as they fall blow up the pyramid. A truck flipped. In real life!

I think the stunt driver who drove that lorry (truck) was at least in his 60's, possibly even 70 years old! I don't sound appreciating by saying that to me that moment didn't make me feel excited. Despite the technical brilliance to make the actual lorry flip, I wasn't awe-struck by it. By contrast, watching scenes in BB such as the Tumbler crushing a police car, it ducking and weaving through traffic or when we see the ripple on the'sonar screen' and Batman's face intently looking forward and you get that turbo boost sound from the engines. I also love the scene where Batman reveals his identity to Rachel Dawesd before jumping off the roof and gliding. All those scenes made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It still does now.

I was only amazed by the Hong Kong flying sequence and then the skyhook. Maybe owning the SWATs with the rope as well. But that's about it. I really missed those emotional moments (and Zimmer's tender music that accompanied them) in TDK. We only got the scene that Bruce is mopping over Rachel's death and it didnt have any music (iirc) and it was too short.
Granted, not all films can be about Batman's parents, but i dunno, TDK was soooo unsentimental and cold.

The only scenes in TDK which amazed me were when Batman crashes through that office window in Hong Kong; when the Tumbler smashes that lorry bin (garbage truck) and makes a 180° turn and when Batman jumps off the roof with Commissioner Gordon shouting at him (since the music has an effect). Despite TDK being accompanied by a great soundtrack, I found it didn't blend well with the scenes on screen. Some viewers said the soundtrack was too obtrusive where as I felt it was the complete opposite! There was only one moment in TDK where a tender theme by James Newton Howard/Hans Zimmerman (it may be the former) played - it's part of the Agent of Chaos track. You're right, not every Batman film can be about Bruce Wayne's parents but there should at least be a mention of them. As I said earlier, even if only in spirit then it's enough.

I agree with you on how cold the film was. The problem is TDK is a film about ideas; conveying ideas which are provocative and deep yet leaving the rest stripped bare of feeling. You can easily say TDK is simply one moral set-piece after another.

All these things have made me wonder why I loved certain films when I first saw them in the cinema. I thing a big part of it is that I hadn't seen any trailers and barely knew the details beyond characters and plot. I did have high expectations for TDK and I remember waiting in the auditorium, my heart was racing due to the sheer excitement and anticipation for viewing the film. Perhaps next time I will shy away from any trailers for the next Batman film (it will undoubtedly happen) and tr to re-create the exact conditions under which I first saw BB. Even though I remember having big expectations for BB and being very excited to see it. I had avoided all the trailers (the only imagery I had seen were a few pictures) and was blown away by the sheer spectacle and drama.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yes, not all movies have to be about Bruce's parents, and TDK had quit a few sentimental moments, like when Bruce has lost hope and is thinking about quitting, Rachel's death and perhaps other moments. But for some reason they werent handled so well and that scene in Begins when Bruce stares at the stethoscope was a lot more sentimental in my opinion.

And yes, the BB tumbler chase scene was amazing!

 

[brandon67]

Batman begins was far better in my opinion. it had more character depth, insight, and time to breathe instead of non-stop action.

 

[Ipodman]

Begins followed by Batman, and then TDK

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Batman begins was far better in my opinion. it had more character depth, insight, and time to breathe instead of non-stop action.

Ha HA HA HAHA HA

 

[Sparky Clarky]

I haven't seen Batman Begins, yet. One day I'll watch ot on the video or Dvd. I used to love watching the tv show Batman, when I was a little kid. It brings back a lot of memories when I watched it with my sister and mother.

 

[Avengers-Report]

Batman Begins was very good. The story and their interpretation of fear was much better than TDK, but the acting in TDK was just too good, making it the better movie.

 

[Door Noob]

Both movies give me the chills, but I still re-watch Begins twice as many time compared to whenever I re-watch The Dark Knight.