Superman Returns Who's Your Daddy? The Ultimate Jason Poll [Place your bets]

[Nautica7mk]

And to add, the book sets up the perfect oppurtunity for Lois to start developing feelings for Clark. I agree, she doesn't/may not have them now, but that doesn't me she can't.

One scenario I'd love to see is, if by the end of Returns, Superman takes a step back and lets Lois and Richard go, then I'd really love to see Clark throw himself into his work [as a reporter] in order to avoid Lois and her new family. And that's where the professional rivalry enters between Lois and Clark. Thus, Lois sees him in a different light.

I don't think the onus should be on Richard to leave, its not like Lois doesn't love Richard, I read the book and I never got the feeling that she didn't love him, it may be different but I feel its more real than her love for Superman.

I do think that Lois loves him [Richard], but I also think Lois loved Richard because of how much he reminded her of Superman. Throughout the novel, on a relationship standpoint, I kept thinking that Richard just doesn't challenge her. He's simply a good devoted guy, but what else can he offer her? They crack a joke, tell each other a good story, but Richard seems too much like the kind of guy who'll do everything to appease Lois.

That's not to say Clark isn't the same, but I feel if Lois had known that Superman and Clark were the same person, or at least if Clark wasn't the mild-mannered timid shy and bumbling reporter/friend that he is (Ex. The Animated Series or even the Lois & Clark show), they'd have a far more different relationship than the one we've seen in Superman The Movie and the sequel.

 

[charl_huntress]

Here's the thing for me...the novel clearly goes out of its way to show that this dude parallels Superman/Clark to a large degree. He even looks like him. However, we all know there is only one Superman and his name is not Richard White.

 

[tallsy_1]

She knows Richard will be their for her and not just that but that he needs her and that is fundamentally different than what she has with Superman because at this point it seems to be love based on the damsel in distress syndrome. While with Superman she really doesn't know anything about him. While you can still love someone even if you don't fully know him that is not really conductive for a healthy relationship since you don't know who this person is as a person. While Clark may notice the similarities between Superman and Richard there are are also many differences. What can Richard give her that Superman cannot? I would say that Richard isn't perfect and has his faults and is vulnerable and he needs her as much as she needs him is very different than the pedestal that Superman is on.

I really liked your post, and it had some very thought provoking things in it. If this were real life, and I were Lois's best friend, mother, sister, etc. I would tell her to stick with Richard. But this isn't, and Superman/Lois is an epic love story with them as the focus. Even if it is unrealistic and possibly gives people the wrong idea about what they should be looking for in a mate. (Speaking as someone happily married)

 

[gaheris]

Some of the things you said...which is why I quoted the whole thing...is pretty much the Jeb Frieman (sp) storyline from the comics...add in a few changes here there. That story will not work for this movie because there is a child involved...full stop. No more needs to be said.

Some of the things you said...frankly...well...I don't really understand, so I won't comment.

Anyway, if the kid is Clark's he can't just fly off or...I might have to say this movie will suck. I don't care if it's revealed in this movie or the next, as long as it makes into the last movie I'm fine.

And to add, the book sets up the perfect oppurtunity for Lois to start developing feelings for Clark. I agree, she doesn't/may not have them now, but that doesn't me she can't or will never have them. This fallacy that Lois can't love Clark needs to stop.

Sorry some of what I posted may of been fragmented so I apologize, sometimes I just write and forget to complete the thought. I definitely agree that Losi could have feelings for Clark in the future it is just that as of now and how it has been presented it has not happened yet and that Clark is not really on her radar at this point. This can change but how can it if she is still engaged? It becomes hard to rectify this without having Clark, Lois or Richard coming off in a negative light.

I think Superman is great but I am probably a lot closer to the casual audience than the hardcore because I don't carry the same attachment to the character that many on the boards do. So I can see Lois with another person and not feel like its such a big deal.

I do think that Lois loves him [Richard], but I also think Lois loved Richard because of how much he reminded her of Superman. Throughout the novel, on a relationship standpoint, I kept thinking that Richard just doesn't challenge her. He's simply a good devoted guy, but what else can he offer her? They crack a joke, tell each other a good story, but Richard seems too much like the kind of guy who'll do everything to appease Lois.

I think that you are right in that one of the reasons she was attracted to him was because of his similarites with Superman especially since that was during the time he had just left. It is really hard to see where they are in the relationship but I thought I read somewhere that one of the reasons she did love him was because they needed each other and that from her perspective with Superman the relationship was more of her needing him and not him needing her as it were. I am not saying that is how it really is but to her that is how it may sometimes come across.

It is really hard to say how Richard is as a character since we only see him in relation to someone else. I also thought that she said or thought that he did challenge her in the novel even if it was not shown.

I feel like Richard comes across as the Clark in the comics which makes sense if you consider the similarities between him, Superman and Clark that Clark notices. I guess I am just of the opinion that to make it that Lois never really loved him is a disservice to her character and to Richard's as well. If that is true why spend 5 years with him, why would someone who is so independent need a man she doesn't love. That just doesn't seem like her and that is why I think that she should love both of them but differently. People can have more than one love in the course of their lives and I think that this could allow for better drama without making things so cut and dry.

So it allows her character to grow and change without nullifying the feelings she has for either Superman and Richard or discounting them and it makes the choice all that harder creating some very personal dramatic tension between them that can work to a more satisfying conclusion. I think that Lois and Clark should be together but I don't think that relationship should in any way diminish what she had with Richard. That is really all I want. I just don't want her relationship with Richard to fall to the wayside as not important or that she didn't love him if and when she gets together with Superman.

 

[charl_huntress]

Sorry some of what I posted may of been fragmented so I apologize, sometimes I just write and forget to complete the thought. I definitely agree that Losi could have feelings for Clark in the future it is just that as of now and how it has been presented it has not happened yet and that Clark is not really on her radar at this point. This can change but how can it if she is still engaged? It becomes hard to rectify this without having Clark, Lois or Richard coming off in a negative light.

I think Superman is great but I am probably a lot closer to the casual audience than the hardcore because I don't carry the same attachment to the character that many on the boards do. So I can see Lois with another person and not feel like its such a big deal.

It happens don't worry, but I really didn't understand. Your last post cleared up more of what you were saying for me. And I actually agree with many of your points. I too want to see Lois face some choices with Clark and Richard, not so much between him and Superman. No one is going to win that battle, and the one thing the novel pointed out is some recognition on her part that she can't love Superman the way she could love a normal man. The normal man is Clark or Superman outside the suit to some degree, and she needs to start loving him, so I fully support that relationship developing. However, Richard is a huge obstacle to things working out the way I would like, which is why I think a heroic death suits him best. There can be a struggle, and we can see the indecision on everyone's part, and when the choice needs to be made...Richard dies in a timely (I mean untimely) death. That too me seems the best scenario. It's pat yes, but it works to establish everything, but keeps the endgame in play (which for me is Lois and Clark/Supes together).

 

[LuvSupes]

I think Superman is great but I am probably a lot closer to the casual audience than the hardcore because I don't carry the same attachment to the character that many on the boards do. So I can see Lois with another person and not feel like its such a big deal.

I think it's the opposite actually. I'm more casual audience and I don't have a problem with Superman being a dad. People that aren't into anything Superman will be rooting for Superman like the hero of any piece. They will want the child to be Superman's and for the two to be together. They don't have the hang-up like a few comicbook fans that Superman can't be a daddy. In the public consciousness, it's always been Lois and Clark. If you ask some random person on the street who Superman's girl is, they'd say Lois. I remember when they asked that type of question on Jeopardy and the contestant said Lois without hesitation. He got the question wrong because they were talking about Smallville, but you see people automatically think Lois and Clark. I mean, look that show had over 20 million viewers. It wasn't on a niche market channel. It's market was the casual audience.

Also I sort of see girls like me and my friends as the target audience for this piece. Yes, Superman is for everyone but this is as Singer says "his first chick flick". If Singer wants his chick flick to be seen over and over again by girls, then he won't make a story that ends Superman and Lois. It's like the notebook (poor marsden lol) or even titanic. The casual audience roots for the main characters to get together. Yes Jack dies in Titanic, but the point is by the end of the film Rose and Jack are together. To Rose, the other dude is no longer in the picture. She's not going back to him. Her heart belongs to Jack. Of maybe the better comparison is the Notebook where the Marsden character isn't a bad guy but you root for the main characters anyway.

 

[jensmith]

That's fine if Superman had stayed gone. Once, he comes back it's not the past it's the present. Then I think she has the obligation to tell Richard that the biological father has returned, and Richard has the right to know.

Agreed, we don't know yet if she tells him or not. I don't think it's something she would blurt out immediately because she has her own unresolved anger & feelings to work through. However in the long term, Richard deserves to know now that Superman is back.

I'm in the minority but I'm expecting Richard and Clark to both know in this movie. After reading the book, I see Richard as the unsung hero of the story, and I still think he'll be the one who initiates the breakup for the sake of Lois, Jason and Superman. (I also think Lois will acknowledge her feelings for Superman but still love Richard albeit in a different way). I think Richard not Superman will be the Humphrey Bogart character in Casablanca, the one who walks away alone.

I'll find out in a couple weeks if I am woefully wrong or not. LOL!

 

[Nautica7mk]

I'm in the minority but I'm expecting Richard and Clark to both know in this movie. After reading the book, I see Richard as the unsung hero of the story, and I still think he'll be the one who initiates the breakup for the sake of Lois, Jason and Superman. (I also think Lois will acknowledge her feelings for Superman but still love Richard albeit in a different way). I think Richard not Superman will be the Humphrey Bogart character in Casablanca, the one who walks away alone.

I can see Lois and Richard trying to make it work post Superman Returns but failing miserably. I could imagine that for Lois, it was easier to move on when Superman was literally not in the picture, but now that he's back, alive and obviously just as in love with her now than 6 years ago, then it'll make things harder for Lois considering she doesn't hate the guy.

 

[tallsy_1]

Of maybe the better comparison is the Notebook where the Marsden character isn't a bad guy but you root for the main characters anyway.

I think the difference most of us are struggling with is there is a child involved. Lois hasn't been just dating Richard. He's been helping her raise a child who isn't his. That needs to be handled more gently than a regular relationship. And I think a general audience, which prolly has a number of blended families will be offended if it's not handled well.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: This needs to be handle on the Maury Show

 

[charl_huntress]

I think the difference most of us are struggling with is there is a child involved. Lois hasn't been just dating Richard. He's been helping her raise a child who isn't his. That needs to be handled more gently than a regular relationship. And I think a general audience, which prolly has a number of blended families will be offended if it's not handled well.

Which is why the death is more appropriate...it's simple and uncomplicated and the relationship is complicated enough in my opinion.

This could be a topic on the Maury show, so a death works better. At some point, the dramatic tension of this relationship has got to climax and pop, so that it can get some equilbrium.

Though Jen, I do agree Richard is the unsung hero Poor guy...I feel like crap that I keep advocating his death...but there's no help for it..lol

 

[LuvSupes]

I think the difference most of us are struggling with is there is a child involved. Lois hasn't been just dating Richard. He's been helping her raise a child who isn't his. That needs to be handled more gently than a regular relationship. And I think a general audience, which prolly has a number of blended families will be offended if it's not handled well.

That's why people will be rooting for Superman to be the father. They want to root for him, him being the rightful father makes it easier to watch him hovering around Lois all the time.

 

[jensmith]

That's why people will be rooting for Superman to be the father. They want to root for him, him being the rightful father makes it easier to watch him hovering around Lois all the time.

LOL!! Yep, even those of us (ME!) who don't want to see a super child. ;^)

This is why I am convinced Jason is Superman's child. It makes Richard bowing out of the picture easier to handle.

If he's raising Superman's child then in a sense he is the usurper, not Superman. It's Richard who is borrowing Superman's life. Superman isn't taking something away from Richard (his son, his fiancee), but reclaiming what is his (child). Superman was in Lois' life first, he made a huge mistake, and now he has to stand back because to interfere wouldn't be right.

If Jason is Superman's child and Lois and Superman love each other it's up to Richard to realize it isn't right to keep them apart, this allows everybody to save face. Lois and Superman don't look like chumps, leaving poor Richard in the dust if Richard understands he can't be an obstacle.

Richard leaving to find his own life opens the opportunity for a happier ending because you know he'll find love again and have a child of his own someday (if he wants one).

Of course Richard could die but I still think that is too easy.

 

[Topdawg]

Is Lois actually married to Richard?.lol

cause that writer said his name is Jason Christopher WHITE!

 

[Nautica7mk]

Is Lois actually married to Richard?.lol

No. It's a prolonged engagement.

Cause that writer said his name is Jason Christopher WHITE!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this information was taken from an alternate source that wasn't from Singer or any of his writers.

 

[jensmith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this information was taken from an alternate source that wasn't from Singer or any of his writers.

Isn't his name Jason Lane in the book?

 

[LuvSupes]

No. It's a prolonged engagement.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this information was taken from an alternate source that wasn't from Singer or any of his writers.

Yup, that name came from "The Gospel: According to the Worlds Greatest Superhero" which both BT and Mike Dougherty say is garbage. That book has no tie to the actual film, it was based on internet rumors.

 

[gaheris]

LOL!! Yep, even those of us (ME!) who don't want to see a super child. ;^)

This is why I am convinced Jason is Superman's child. It makes Richard bowing out of the picture easier to handle.

If he's raising Superman's child then in a sense he is the usurper, not Superman. It's Richard who is borrowing Superman's life. Superman isn't taking something away from Richard (his son, his fiancee), but reclaiming what is his (child). Superman was in Lois' life first, he made a huge mistake, and now he has to stand back because to interfere wouldn't be right.

If Jason is Superman's child and Lois and Superman love each other it's up to Richard to realize it isn't right to keep them apart, this allows everybody to save face. Lois and Superman don't look like chumps, leaving poor Richard in the dust if Richard understands he can't be an obstacle.

Richard leaving to find his own life opens the opportunity for a happier ending because you know he'll find love again and have a child of his own someday (if he wants one).

Of course Richard could die but I still think that is too easy.

See the problem with this is that Jason is Richard's child in every way that matters. No matter why Superman left if he is the biological father there is no bowing out gracefully becuase Richard seems to be the type of character that would want to be apart of Jason's life period that is if he lives in future movies. Richard loves Jason unconditionally and Jason the same and that is not something that can be just replaced by Superman even if he is the biological father.

I also don't see him usurping anything because Superman was not there and as such they were not together so he didn't take anything from anyone. To Superman he would be reclaiming his child but at the cost of the father he has known his entire life.

 

[jensmith]

See the problem with this is that Jason is Richard's child in every way that matters. No matter why Superman left if he is the biological father there is no bowing out gracefully becuase Richard seems to be the type of character that would want to be apart of Jason's life period that is if he lives in future movies.

I agree, Richard is Jason's father in every way which matters. However Superman isn't the 'bad guy' (if Jason is indeed his son), he didn't purposely abandon his child.

My point is, if Richard isn't the biological father and he knows Jason's biological father has returned, it'll have to be Richard's goodness of heart which makes him realize he can't stand in the way of Jason/Superman.

If Jason is Superman's son, that means Jason is half alien. Neither Richard or Lois can help Jason deal with what all that means. Superman is the only person who can guide Jason through the minefields of being that different.

MHO, allowing Richard to live means Jason and Richard keep their relationship while making room for another father, different but a good man like Richard. That to me is a happy ending. Richard is allowed to find somebody else, have his own biological child yet keeps his bond with a boy he raised as his own for a few years. (Another reason I don't see this dragging on past this movie, the longer Richard is in Jason's life as his only father, the harder it is too get rid of him without hurting the child. The younger Jason is, the easier the transition. )

It also gives Jason a place to go for the summer while Superman/Lois Lane chase down Brainiac. LOL!

I don't think of Richard as consciously usurping Superman (and not in a negative way) but if Richard came in to the picture knowing Jason wasn't his child (which shows the measure of Richard's character), he knew there was a remote possiblity of Jason's biological dad returning, unless Lois lied and said Jason's father was dead.

He'll need to realize when Superman returns that Superman is a good man deserving the chance of a relationship with his son.

To Superman he would be reclaiming his child but at the cost of the father he has known his entire life.

Yep, which is why I think it has to be Richard who sees the wisdom of stepping aside no matter how much it hurts himself and promising Jason he will always be a part of Jason's life. Not dissimilar from couples who divorce but share custody of their kids. In this case Jason would be reunited with his biological dad but could stay in close contact with a man who raised him for 4 or 5 years.

I'm not expressing myself well, I know, but I think the end result has to be what is best for Jason long term. If Jason is Superman's son that means he has a unique heritage, he represents something not thought possible. One set of his grandparents are Jor-El and Lara, his dad is the last son of a dead planet.

Does Jason deserve the opportunity to grow up with Superman who can teach him how to control any powers, deal with whatever special abilities he develops as he grows? Is the short term pain of having to restructure his life worth the long term benefit?

It'll be very painful for Richard, Jason will be sad not to have Richard living with him. However he is young enough to adjust and make room for two dads. Richard would have to make the ultimate sacrifice out of love for his son.

 

[MoreCowbell]

It happens don't worry, but I really didn't understand. Your last post cleared up more of what you were saying for me. And I actually agree with many of your points. I too want to see Lois face some choices with Clark and Richard, not so much between him and Superman. No one is going to win that battle, and the one thing the novel pointed out is some recognition on her part that she can't love Superman the way she could love a normal man. The normal man is Clark or Superman outside the suit to some degree, and she needs to start loving him, so I fully support that relationship developing. However, Richard is a huge obstacle to things working out the way I would like, which is why I think a heroic death suits him best. There can be a struggle, and we can see the indecision on everyone's part, and when the choice needs to be made...Richard dies in a timely (I mean untimely) death. That too me seems the best scenario. It's pat yes, but it works to establish everything, but keeps the endgame in play (which for me is Lois and Clark/Supes together).

You know, you've convinced me... Richard has to die. There is no way around it.

1). Richard just can't "bow out" of the Lois relationship because in a sense, he is abondoning Jason if he does that. Sure he can be apart of his life in other ways, but that just makes Clark the step dad (even though he would biologically be his real dad). I can't see the 3rd Superman film with Jason, Clark, Lois and Richard all having thanksgiving dinner together. Someone has to go and go for good.

2). I've tried to be careful to say throughout this thread "Clark" and not Supes. One of the reasons Clark doesn't tell Lois he is Superman in S:TM (when Lois first meets Supes and he flies away and Clark picks Lois up for a date and she's in heaven) is because he figures out she cares about Superman, and not so much for Clark. Lois will have to fall in love with Clark and then the revelation that they're one in the same will finally be the turning stone in this plot/relationship.

 

[gaheris]

You know, you've convinced me... Richard has to die. There is no way around it.

1). Richard just can't "bow out" of the Lois relationship because in a sense, he is abondoning Jason if he does that. Sure he can be apart of his life in other ways, but that just makes Clark the step dad (even though he would biologically be his real dad). I can't see the 3rd Superman film with Jason, Clark, Lois and Richard all having thanksgiving dinner together. Someone has to go and go for good.

2). I've tried to be careful to say throughout this thread "Clark" and not Supes. One of the reasons Clark doesn't tell Lois he is Superman in S:TM (when Lois first meets Supes and he flies away and Clark picks Lois up for a date and she's in heaven) is because he figures out she cares about Superman, and not so much for Clark. Lois will have to fall in love with Clark and then the revelation that they're one in the same will finally be the turning stone in this plot/relationship.

She definitely needs to fall for Clark and so far as it is setup in the movie it ani't happening. If she barely talked about Clark while he was gone what will change now that he is back and she is engaged. She is obiously not looking for a relationship since she is arealy in one and has a family to boot. See with the setup in the movie I think Clark needs to change in order for him to get her attention but that can only be done after Richard is out of the picture. That only solves part of the problem, the next will be the child where Clark would take on the role of step father regardless of whose child Jason is. I really think that if they kill Richard off they are going to involve Superman in his death in some way like it's Superman's fault however unintentional like Richard would be colateral damage during a battle while he tries to protect Lois and Jason this would up the dramatic tension and cause guilt, pain and loss on all sides which could offer some very interesting insights to the characters.

1. It prevents Superman and Lois from getting together anytime soon ex until movie 3.
2. Show's Superman as more human and that he makes mistakes too or that he can't save everyone.
3. Causes tension between Superman and Lois.
4. Leaves the door open for Clark/Superman later but it will not be easy and for a time not possible.
5. Jason will be devestated and will compare Superman to Richard and the image of Richard trying to protect them would be burned in his mind making Clark and Jason interactions much more complex and interesting especially if he finds out that Clark and Superman are the same person.
6. Jason acts as a constant reminder to Lois and Superman/Clark about what he cost her which leads to guilt especially for Superman.
7. Cause Lois to face her feelings for Richard and Superman.

Clark would be the one to pick up the pieces but will face the problem of being the cause of her grief to start and of not being honest with her. This makes telling her he is Superman harder because she will have to face the fact that the new person in her life had a hand in the death of someone she loved. She would then have to reconcile that fact with him. While it sounds that it should be simple it never is because emotions are not always rational and this could be very powerful emotionally for these characters.

This way they will not get together until the third movie which would be a perfect ending to a trilogy which seems to be really in these days. I don't say that Superman should be involved in what happens to Richard to disrespect the character only to show him as imperfect like everyone else and in Superman Returns the book focused a lot on him being just another person and his own insecurities and this just brings that to another heart wrenching level which I really thinks adds to the character and shows the consequences of his actions in a much more personal and powerful way than just being gone for 5 years. This would help make the conflict and choices much more powerful and I think would lead to a much more satisfying conclusion to their stroy arc.