World Why a Superman vs Batman fight wouldn't work

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

What about the value of human friendship? What about the value of human compassion which is exactly the thing the makes Superman who he is as a result of his own human upbringing and why Batman seeks to protect people from criminals instead of just being content to break the neck of the guy who killed his parents? What about the value of human heroism?

Also if Batman can just beat anybody who is super powered does that not in fact undermine the very human quality you're saying must be preserved? If Batman is indeed the most human of superheroes then the capacity for him to lose must also be taken into account. All the more reason he would find a much better way to solve the problem than just trying to kill a fellow superhero.

Thats a really good point.For me I never saw Batman as being the best at everything.He's the 2nd best at every thing....hes a jack of all trades kind of guy.But being that as it is would make it hard for him to really lose at anything.Most likely he would aim his efferets at a stailmate.

 

[dr collossus]

What about the value of human friendship? What about the value of human compassion which is exactly the thing the makes Superman who he is as a result of his own human upbringing and why Batman seeks to protect people from criminals instead of just being content to break the neck of the guy who killed his parents? What about the value of human heroism?

What about them? Yes, those things are important, if a little random. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

Also if Batman can just beat anybody who is super powered does that not in fact undermine the very human quality you're saying must be preserved? If Batman is indeed the most human of superheroes then the capacity for him to lose must also be taken into account.

I agree with you here. It does undermine that very quality. Go tell DC. Batman has nonetheless systematically proved that he can't be beaten, I guess with the exception being Bane. But what DC are trying to show is that in a world where super-heroes are real, normal human beings still hold a valid place in society. And they demonstrate this by showing that a mere human being can still beat any of these 'gods'.

All the more reason he would find a much better way to solve the problem than just trying to kill a fellow superhero.

That's more related to your first paragraph rather than why a Superman and Batman fight wouldn't work, but still true.

 

[LexCorp]

Now one of the main reasons why people go on and on about how Superman vs Batman would be such a great fight is because of their popularity. Lets face it these two are like the Stallone and Schwarzenegger of the DC universe. Now people have said things to me like "Oh Batman could take Superman he's real smart and he would use kryptonite". And time and time again I've said how the problem with that is in order for the kryptonite to take effect one would have to get close enough to touch Superman. Thats a difficult feat because Superman has superhearing and he can see through things.(as well as many other powers but you all know the rest) Another thing if Batman can't take these people in a fight

Not exactly...they need to get close. Hell you could just throw it at Supes and he is down for the count.

But in all honesty if a real fight were to just happen with no prior warning for either character to prepare etc...

Superman would kill him very quickly.

 

[Andy C.]

Where not just talking about just any fight.A fight between these 2 characters would have to be to the death [cue Star Trek fight music]
and that would be the desiding facter.If Batman truly believed that Superman would have to be stoped to save the world he would get the job done even if it ment killing.It would be a dirty fight for sure and I'm sure people will say that he cheated but he would still be the last man standing.

I agree with you here. It does undermine that very quality. Go tell DC. Batman has nonetheless systematically proved that he can't be beaten, I guess with the exception being Bane. But what DC are trying to show is that in a world where super-heroes are real, normal human beings still hold a valid place in society. And they demonstrate this by showing that a mere human being can still beat any of these 'gods'.

The 'Superman: Sacrifice' story kinda shoots both of your arguments down. Superman showed that he was completely willing to kill if he was pushed far enough (while he was hallucinating that Brainiac had just killed Lois), and Batman completely shut Wonder Woman out after she killed Max Lord, even though her reason for doing so was justified. If anything, the story showed that Batman was even more hardcore against killing than Superman was.

As for the whole 'Batman is unbeatable just because he's Batman' deal, Clark did one hell of a number on him while he was under Lord's control. Sure, Superman thought he was fighting Doomsday/Darkseid/Brainiac/whoever instead of Batman, but he still beat Bruce within an inch of his life, and the only thing Bruce was able to do about it was call Wonder Woman.

 

[Ultraman Nexus]

What about them? Yes, those things are important, if a little random. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

It was in direct response to the whole Batman must always win or it will undermine human achivement thing.

I agree with you here. It does undermine that very quality. Go tell DC. Batman has nonetheless systematically proved that he can't be beaten, I guess with the exception being Bane. But what DC are trying to show is that in a world where super-heroes are real, normal human beings still hold a valid place in society. And they demonstrate this by showing that a mere human being can still beat any of these 'gods'.

I know the comics push that. It's stupid there and it would be even more idiotic to push it on the big screen.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

The 'Superman: Sacrifice' story kinda shoots both of your arguments down. Superman showed that he was completely willing to kill if he was pushed far enough (while he was hallucinating that Brainiac had just killed Lois),

That depends on how you see it.I believe that if he had been hallucinating that some normal joe shmo had killed Lois I dont think he would have gone so far.Further more Lord's influance also works on the emotional centers of the brain...ineffect weeking his abilty to control his inpulses's, so trying to compair his reaction in that story to how he may react while under no-one influance is ignorant.

and Batman completely shut Wonder Woman out after she killed Max Lord, even though her reason for doing so was justified. If anything, the story showed that Batman was even more hardcore against killing than Superman was.

Batman uses a different set of values when judgeing those with superpowers.He has never looked down on James Gordan or any of the police officers that he has worked with for killing.He even forgave Dick and Jean Paul for letting some bad guys ket killed.

As for the whole 'Batman is unbeatable just because he's Batman' deal, Clark did one hell of a number on him while he was under Lord's control. Sure, Superman thought he was fighting Doomsday/Darkseid/Brainiac/whoever instead of Batman, but he still beat Bruce within an inch of his life, and the only thing Bruce was able to do about it was call Wonder Woman.

This falls back to the fanboy argument of "prep time".Even I dont like to quote this issue.....but the fact is that if a fight was going to happen he would most likly be very prepaired.

 

[Andy C.]

If I was going to be smart-allecky, I'd say that a fight did happen and he wasn't prepared. But I'll concede that Batman's smart enough to come up with some method or another to survive an encounter with Clark (as Hush demonstrated) I still think it'd be a bit ridiculous to have him just knock the guy around like he did in DKR, though.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

If I was going to be smart-allecky, I'd say that a fight did happen and he wasn't prepared. But I'll concede that Batman's smart enough to come up with some method or another to survive an encounter with Clark (as Hush demonstrated) I still think it'd be a bit ridiculous to have him just knock the guy around like he did in DKR, though.

It wouldnt be "smart-allecky"...it would be correct to say that.My point of view has it's based on the fact that Bat's could only win a fight with Sup's [weter incontron of himself or not] if he knew that the fight was comming.
The fight in DKR is actually a good exsample of how Bats could win.You seem to be forgeting some key moments in that fight.The stratgy Bat's uses is quite effective.Not to long before the fight Sup's barely survived an explodeing nuke, I do admit I was shocked that a nuke would hurt him so much but this was just after the first Crissis and Sup's was depowered to a large degree.Bat's then uses a number of missiles to tyre and further weaken Sup's.Then he sends Robin with the tank to soften him up some more.Next he uses a sonic gun to hurt Sup's [Any guy with super hearing would be effected by this]Next he uses his exo-suit witch is drawing its power power from the city it self.Then to put the "iceing on the cake" he has Green Arrow shoot a kryptonite tiped arrow at Sup's.It's no wonder he won.

 

[Andy C.]

I've already stated my stance on Elseworld stories (especially that one, since Miller writes Superman like he's a moron), but I'll give credit that it's a decent plan to use against the watered-down post-Crisis Supes. Against the current retro-Silver Age Superman? No way. Not without a boat-load of Kryptonite and the rest of the JLA on call.

On a slight change of topic, why is it that Batman's anti-Superman plans all seem to be foolproof in the Elseworld stories, but Lex Luthor's similar death-traps never work? Doesn't make sense, since Luthor's supposed to be smarter than Bruce, not to mention the fact that he actually is trying to kill Superman.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I've already stated my stance on Elseworld stories (especially that one, since Miller writes Superman like he's a moron), but I'll give credit that it's a decent plan to use against the watered-down post-Crisis Supes. Against the current retro-Silver Age Superman? No way. Not without a boat-load of Kryptonite and the rest of the JLA on call.

On a slight change of topic, why is it that Batman's anti-Superman plans all seem to be foolproof in the Elseworld stories, but Lex Luthor's similar death-traps never work? Doesn't make sense, since Luthor's supposed to be smarter than Bruce, not to mention the fact that he actually is trying to kill Superman.

Well TDKR is not really a Else Worlds book but I get your meaning but on the other hand I could see most of this plan still working with current Superman with most of the JLA behind it.The only reason I say this is not because of a power level issue but how the character is written.
I would say that the fact that Lex is trying to kill him.....Bats just WANTS to stop him.Lex's desire to kill him and his ego [ he wants it knowen that he did it]on the topic leads him to making over elabrite traps that fail.Bats just wants to get the job done.

 

[Venomfan]

As for the whole 'Batman is unbeatable just because he's Batman' deal, Clark did one hell of a number on him while he was under Lord's control. Sure, Superman thought he was fighting Doomsday/Darkseid/Brainiac/whoever instead of Batman, but he still beat Bruce within an inch of his life, and the only thing Bruce was able to do about it was call Wonder Woman.

how did Batman survive the first hit? if Supes thought he was fighting those others guys he would have been going all out.

anyway how come Superman is never able to be prepared in these matchups? in a fight to the death, how could batman get anywhere near him without getting heat visioned to death before he can blink. Supes wouldnt even need to heat vision him, he can move faster then batman can see....batman wouldnt even know Supes was around

 

[Bronson]

I personally thought the fight in Hush was handled very well, with Bats using every bit of his resources to keep Big Blue off-balance, and Superman still right on his heels the entire time.

The real problem with a Superman/Batman fight is that, unless one of them is under mind control or something (again, like in Hush), they wouldn't fight. They know each other too well to go into any confrontation blindly, and what's more, can usually work out whatever differences they'd have without the need for violence.

I don't give a damn how Frank Miller sees it in his Dark Knight books; neither one of them is going to resort to violence against his best (and in Batman's case, only) friend if there's a way around it.

I agree with your analysis. They might difference of opinion but would not do that and besides, fans of either one would hate it. You would have to have to fight end in a draw like when Batman and Robin fought the Green Hornet and Kato.

 

[Andy C.]

how did Batman survive the first hit? if Supes thought he was fighting those others guys he would have been going all out.

That's a good question, which they don't really answer. It should be noted that Superman was also fighting the JLA HQ's defense systems and Wonder Woman while he was wailing on Bruce, so that might've slowed him down enough for Batman to survive. He still had tons of broken bones and whatnot.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

That's a good question, which they don't really answer. It should be noted that Superman was also fighting the JLA HQ's defense systems and Wonder Woman while he was wailing on Bruce, so that might've slowed him down enough for Batman to survive. He still had tons of broken bones and whatnot.

I would say its cause Lords influance over him wasnt absulute.That there was still a part of his mind that new something just wasnt right.A part of his mind that he just isnt aware of.But thats just a guess.

 

[Andy C.]

That's possible. After all, much the same thing happened in Hush; Clark was fighting Poison Ivy's brainwashing the whole time, which gave Bruce an added edge to help him break Ivy's control.

 

[David Rice]

Now one of the main reasons why people go on and on about how Superman vs Batman would be such a great fight is because of their popularity. Lets face it these two are like the Stallone and Schwarzenegger of the DC universe. Now people have said things to me like "Oh Batman could take Superman he's real smart and he would use kryptonite". And time and time again I've said how the problem with that is in order for the kryptonite to take effect one would have to get close enough to touch Superman. Thats a difficult feat because Superman has superhearing and he can see through things.(as well as many other powers but you all know the rest) Another thing if Batman can't take these people in a fight

1. Bane
2. Spiderman
3. Wolverine
4. Colossus
5. Sabretooth
6. Captain America
7. Cyclops
8. Storm
9. Gambit
10. Venom
11. Omega Red
12. Plastic Man
13. Incredible Hulk
14. Dark Seid
15. Juggernaught
16. Wonder Woman
17. The Flash
18. Lobo
19. Dr. Strange
20. Supergirl
21. Superboy
22. Bizarro
23. Magneto
24. Rogue
25. Iceman
26. The Blob
27. Captain Marvel(DC)
28. Gorilla Grodd
29. Ultra Humanite
30. Parasite
31. Livewire
32. Brainiac
33. Clayface
34. Solomngrundy
35. He-man


He sure as hell can't take Superman one on in a fight. Don't get me wrong Batman is a better martial artist and detective than Superman who knows he could probably take Superman in a game of Jeopardy.

You list is not spot on.

1. Bane (beat him)
2. Spiderman
3. Wolverine
4. Colossus
5. Sabretooth
6. Captain America (beat him)
7. Cyclops (could easly beat him)
8. Storm
9. Gambit (could easly beat him)
10. Venom
11. Omega Red
12. Plastic Man (why the hell would he have to fight him?)
13. Incredible Hulk
14. Dark Seid
15. Juggernaught
16. Wonder Woman (Found a way to beat her, which was used by Ras)
17. The Flash (Found a way to beat her, which was used by Ras)
18. Lobo
19. Dr. Strange
20. Supergirl (could easly beat her)
21. Superboy (could easly beat him)
22. Bizarro
23. Magneto
24. Rogue
25. Iceman
26. The Blob
27. Captain Marvel(DC)
28. Gorilla Grodd
29. Ultra Humanite
30. Parasite
31. Livewire
32. Brainiac
33. Clayface (beat him)
34. Solomngrundy (beat him)
35. He-man

The point is that given the time Batman can find a way to beat anyone. Anyone! He's known Superman for years (loner than most of the people on that list) I'd say he wouldn't have a very hard time doing it. Plus, it was Superman who gave Batman the ring incase he ever went bad.

In the late 90's Batman created files that contanted ways to beat evey member of the JLA. These file were his contingency plan for each member incase they every went rouge. He thought he was protecting himself and the world, but the JLA didn't see it that way.

Ra's Al Ghul used the files to defeat all the members of the JLA and after the story was finished Batman was kicked out if the JLA.

 

[Dr. Fate]

^I was about to point that out about Batman beating Captain America, even if it was basically due to luck as opposed to being stronger/smarter/faster/tougher than the late Captain (RIP).

Anyhow, I prefer not to see Supes and Bats at each other's throats. There's just too much stuff that has to be worked out to make it even remotely acceptable.

 

[David Rice]

^I was about to point that out about Batman beating Captain America, even if it was basically due to luck as opposed to being stronger/smarter/faster/tougher than the late Captain (RIP).

Anyhow, I prefer not to see Supes and Bats at each other's throats. There's just too much stuff that has to be worked out to make it even remotely acceptable.

Yeah!

 

[matthooper]

Forget about the fight (or lack of) between Superman and Batman, the assumed payoff would be when they finally work together. But who cares about that? Batman can use his detective skills and then what? When they fought the bad guy in the end, what would Batman do? Throw his batarangs, his grappling hook? There's nothing Batman needs to do against a real super villian if Superman is fighting too.

The whole idea of a B vs. S film wreaks of crap.