The Avengers Why all the cross-over hate?

[Doc Samson]

Well just because they're different doesn't make them right.

Like your Hammer/Venom comparison.

And that's your opinion, I respect that. Doesn't make it right either

 

[Iron_Stark]

And that's your opinion, I respect that. Doesn't make it right either

My Venom/War Machine comparison is more factual than your Venom/Hammer comparison.

Edit

I'd also like to add that most of the times Iron Man fought Hammer in the comics, Hammer would have Whiplash, Blizzard, Boomerang and other C-List villains doing his dirty work.

So even saying Hammer/Whiplash tag team was the same as Venom/Sandman team up is ridiculous.

 

[Doc Samson]

My Venom/War Machine comparison is more factual than your Venom/Hammer comparison.

Edit

I'd also like to add that most of the times Iron Man fought Hammer in the comics, Hammer would have Whiplash, Blizzard, Boomerang and other C-List villains doing his dirty work.

So even saying Hammer/Whiplash tag team was the same as Venom/Sandman team up is ridiculous.

What's so ridiculous? Both sets of villains suffered from being crammed in a movie that had too much going on for its own good. Do multiple villains work sometimes? Of course, but in these two instances I think the comparison is appropriate. You can't tell me Whiplash wouldn't have benefited from more development? He was barely onscreen throughout the whole middle of the film, and ultimately got defeated in mere minutes.

Hammer was good, and I've said as much, but he also would have been even more entertaining as the central villain in his own movie, IMO, just like Venom and/or Sandman would've been. It's not about the comics, because Hammer in the movie is vastly different from the comic version anyway, especially in terms of tone. It's about making the best movie possible in the time allotted. Giving these guys room to breath only helps the overall quality.

 

[cherokeesam]

No, just stating my opinion. If you go back (which I know you have problems doing) I originally responded to another poster such as yourself, who seems to think that anybody who says something negative about IM2 all of a sudden is some type of diehard DC fanboy, or Nolanite, or Marvel Hater, or Ironman hater, or.....something. It's ridiculous.

Wrong. I never said that anyone who says something negative about IM2 is some sort of Nolanite h8r. I said that anyone who nitpicks about the totally unobtrusive, totally unessential, totally throwaway fanservice snippets in IM2 (or any other Marvel Studio film) is grasping at straws.

You want to complain about crappy villains, hammy dialogue, amateurish scripts and bland action sequences in IM2, feel free --- I'm sure I'll happily agree with you on more than one instance. But the *subject* of this thread is addressing the complaints about cross-referencing The Avengers in other Marvel Studio films, and it's an unbelievably weaksauce argument because (again) it applies *only* to throwaway, nonessential, unobtrusive, blink-and-you-miss-it winks-n-nods to the fans, that have absolutely no impact on the movie(s) at all.

You act like Fury's presence in IM2 was somehow obtrusive, and that he didn't belong there. Nothing could be further from the truth. Fury and SHIELD have ALWAYS been a major part of Stark's life. And yes, SHIELD has a large presence in ALL the Avengers films (including the namesake ensemble) because SHIELD has a large presence in the comic books, too. Especially in this millennium, in the Civil War and post-CW era.

So like it or not, better get used to the idea of SHIELD appearing in pretty much *every* Marvel Studios film from here on. Even if it's only in a diminished capacity. But it makes perfect sense --- the government would be all over any known superhero/ supervillain, trying to actively recruit and/or contain them instead of just letting them run rampant administering their own code of personal justice (Golden/Silver Age style).

 

[Iron_Stark]

What's so ridiculous? Both sets of villains suffered from being crammed in a movie that had too much going on for its own good. Do multiple villains work sometimes? Of course, but in these two instances I think the comparison is appropriate. You can't tell me Whiplash wouldn't have benefited from more development? He was barely onscreen throughout the whole middle of the film, and ultimately got defeated in mere minutes.

Hammer was good, and I've said as much, but he also would have been even more entertaining as the central villain in his own movie, IMO, just like Venom and/or Sandman would've been. It's not about the comics, because Hammer in the movie is vastly different from the comic version anyway, especially in terms of tone. It's about making the best movie possible in the time allotted. Giving these guys room to breath only helps the overall quality.

Well I agree with a lot of this, but once again, you're pointing the blame at the wrong things.

Yes, Vanko needed more time and development, but all of that went to War Machine. This movie didn't suffer from too many villains, it suffered from too many people trying to play hero. Hammer and Whiplash wouldn't have been a problem if the story focused on those two instead of it veering off because people wanted to see an Iron Man knockoff.

Hammer, you say he should've been in a movie byhimself? Wtf? And then what? Who would Iron Man fight? This would be Superman Returns all over again. Have Hammer in a suit and it would contradict what every writer that has written Hammer in the books and he'd be Stane lite.

 

[T-CLIPSE]

Hammer, you say he should've been in a movie by himself? Wtf? And then what? Who would Iron Man fight? This would be Superman Returns all over again. Have Hammer in a suit and it would contradict what every writer that has written Hammer in the books and he'd be Stane lite.

Agreed, no way can Hammer (this movie version anyway) carry the movie as the sole central bad guy. Hammer never at any point wants to kill or even fight Stark, he just simply wants to bring him down a peg or two and be the primary weapons contractor for the government, he doesn't want the guy dead.

In contrast I don't think Vanko can be the sole villian either because his only motive is to kill Stark, I mean how many times can you show them on screen fighting each other. It's one of the problems I have with X-Men Origins:Wolverine, he and Victor had three fight scenes in that movie and it becomes repetitive and tiresome. I think they both needed to be there to play off each others common distaste of Stark, one for revenge and one for greed and jealousy.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Agreed, no way can Hammer (this movie version anyway) carry the movie as the sole central bad guy. Hammer never at any point wants to kill or even fight Stark, he just simply wants to bring him down a peg or two and be the primary weapons contractor for the government, he doesn't want the guy dead.

In contrast I don't think Vanko can be the sole villian either because his only motive is to kill Stark, I mean how many times can you show them on screen fighting each other. It's one of the problems I have with X-Men Origins:Wolverine, he and Victor had three fight scenes in that movie and it becomes repetitive and tiresome. I think they both needed to be there to play off each others common distaste of Stark, one for revenge and one for greed and jealousy.

Totally agree with these points.

I'd also like to comment about War Machine, being shoehorned in for fan service. Rhodey getting in the armor was set up in the first movie. How many people were so excited by that "Next time" line, then he's in the suit "next time" and he's being compared to Venom. He inclusion was organic, it worked in the context of the story.

 

[Iron_Stark]

Totally agree with these points.

I'd also like to comment about War Machine, being shoehorned in for fan service. Rhodey getting in the armor was set up in the first movie. How many people were so excited by that "Next time" line, then he's in the suit "next time" and he's being compared to Venom. He inclusion was organic, it worked in the context of the story.

They should've waited. His inclusion meant the villains got screwed over because they needed to expand on his story.

What I find funny is most people on these and other boards constantly complain about Iron Man fighting "evil Iron Men clones" yet everyone almost ****es their pants when the true Iron Man clone gets mentioned about being put in the next movie.

 

[Raiden]

They should've waited. His inclusion meant the villains got screwed over because they needed to expand on his story.

What I find funny is most people on these and other boards constantly complain about Iron Man fighting "evil Iron Men clones" yet everyone almost ****es their pants when the true Iron Man clone gets mentioned about being put in the next movie.

WM is fine in IM2, but obviously they could've done a better job with him. Like Amazingfantasy said, it was already hinted at in the first IM movie, so everyone should've been anticipating his arrival in the sequel. The problem lies with the villains, and if they had a better script they could've used Varko and Hammer better, but what's done is done.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

WM is fine in IM2, but obviously they could've done a better job with him. Like Amazingfantasy said, it was already hinted at in the first IM movie, so everyone should've been anticipating his arrival in the sequel. The problem lies with the villains, and if they had a better script they could've used Varko and Hammer better, but what's done is done.

I think a lot of it has to do with Iron Man's villians in a general sense. Most of them are science vs. science, which is why Mandarian is so great as a villian because it's science vs. magic.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Mandarin uses tech. His rings are alien technology.

 

[Raiden]

Mandarin uses tech. His rings are alien technology.

I think after IM's appearance in the Avengers, it would be much easier to explain Mandarin's rings if they indeed have Skrulls or alien invaders in the movie.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Mandarin uses tech. His rings are alien technology.

Oh, never realized that

I think after IM's appearance in the Avengers, it would be much easier to explain Mandarin's rings if they indeed have Skulls or alien invaders in the movie.

Could also use the Norse Gods