Age of Ultron The IRON MAN Thread - Robert Downey Jr. Returning!

[The Guard]

I didn't feel they did anything interesting with Stark at all in this film. They started to, for about five minutes, and then just sort of forgot about that. He didn't really learn or teach anyone anything of any significance.

He also lost a lot of his humanity, and became a joke machine. The Hulkbuster was cool, but it would have been nice to see a personal connection of Tony to the idea of preventing his good friend from hurting others and losing control, VS just seeing it as a toy he got to play with.

 

[hafizbat]

I didn't feel they did anything interesting with Stark at all in this film. They started to, for about five minutes, and then just sort of forgot about that. He didn't really learn or teach anyone anything of any significance.

He also lost a lot of his humanity, and became a joke machine. The Hulkbuster was cool, but it would have been nice to see a personal connection of Tony to the idea of preventing his good friend from hurting others and losing control, VS just seeing it as a toy he got to play with.

He was far more human than he has been in the past, imo. He displayed his weaknesses, his flaws, and the way he just brushed off the rest of the team to do his thing was great development for the character, imo. And he's always been a joke machine.

For the bolded part, where did you get that he wasn't trying to prevent his good friend from causing havoc? I don't get this complaint, I thought it was very clear. I didn't get the sense at all that he saw the Hulkbuster as a "toy he got to play with". What made you think that?

 

[drod1985]

I can understand The Guard's view on the Hulk v. Hulkbuster scene. Tony could've displayed some emotion or distress over the fact that he was fighting his friend, and that his friend was causing significant damage and civilian casualties. Instead, he joked throughout the fight.

IMO, that's probably just the way Tony copes. He knew what was happening was serious, he knew The Hulk is difficult to hurt, and he also knew Banner had no control at the moment. So he was just himself during the fight. They could've spun the whole scene dramatically, but they just had fun with it instead, which was probably the correct call.

 

[The Guard]

I'm saying there was really no satisfying continuation of the relationship they started in AVENGERS between the two of them. They just sort of worked together. There was no set up to the Hulkbuster, no emotional investment on Tony's part in it, etc. Just felt a bit hollow and perfunctory.

And no, Stark was not "more human" in this film. Not by a longshot. Tony Stark making errors is not what I mean by "humanity".

 

[hafizbat]

I can understand The Guard's view on the Hulk v. Hulkbuster scene. Tony could've displayed some emotion or distress over the fact that he was fighting his friend, and that his friend was causing significant damage and civilian casualties. Instead, he joked throughout the fight.

IMO, that's probably just the way Tony copes. He knew what was happening was serious, he knew The Hulk is difficult to hurt, and he also knew Banner had no control at the moment. So he was just himself during the fight. They could've spun the whole scene dramatically, but they just had fun with it instead, which was probably the correct call.

Yeah, that's true to Stark's character.

I'm saying there was really no satisfying continuation of the relationship they started in AVENGERS between the two of them. They just sort of worked together. There was no set up to the Hulkbuster, no emotional investment on Tony's part in it, etc. Just felt a bit hollow and perfunctory.

And no, Stark was not "more human" in this film. Not by a longshot. Tony Stark making errors is not what I mean by "humanity".

Eh, I disagree. In The Avengers, they're new friends who have stuff in common. In AoU, their relationship has evolved into them being pretty close to brothers. It was pretty obvious IMO. The bond between them was much closer than between them and any other members of the team.

What would you have liked to see with Stark regarding making him more human? Stark is by far the most developed character in the MCU, and maybe any comicbook movie. He changed from a selfish playboy with no regard for others into a hero in IM1, a guy who "doesn't play well with others" becoming the guy who makes the big sacrifice in The Avengers, to showing his PTSD and the consequences his life as Iron Man have had on him in IM3, to showing how he created what he feared in AoU because of his dangerous combination of paranoia and obstinance. And his arc will continue in Civil War as he goes further down the misguided path to wanting complete control over everything to protect it.

 

[TheVision]

A lot of Tony and Bruces relationship was developed before the movie starts. The group are all getting along great until the Ultron situation.

Obviously Tony and Bruce are like brothers BUT their relationship isnt about serious emotions, its about joking around and making awesome sciency science stuff together. Theyre like big kids really. Mad scientists who dont give a fook.

Hulk vs Hulkbuster: Did people want Tony to cry in the suit to create more emotion? He was trying to keep his buddy from hurting people in a suit they both designed. I preferred the more humorous tone it had. I thought that was one of the best parts of the movie btw.

If you want more emotional depth watch Batman V. Superman I guess. That will be filled with dark, edgy feels guaranteed.

 

[Mr.T]

A lot of Tony and Bruces relationship was developed before the movie starts. The group are all getting along great until the Ultron situation.

Obviously Tony and Bruce are like brothers BUT their relationship isnt about serious emotions, its about joking around and making awesome sciency science stuff together. Theyre like big kids really. Mad scientists who dont give a fook.

Hulk vs Hulkbuster: Did people want Tony to cry in the suit to create more emotion? He was trying to keep his buddy from hurting people in a suit they both designed. I preferred the more humorous tone it had. I thought that was one of the best parts of the movie btw.

If you want more emotional depth watch Batman V. Superman I guess. That will be filled with dark, edgy feels guaranteed.

Tony called Banner by his first name and referenced him as a buddy during that fight. I think it's clear he had personal concern about his friend hulking out and going nuts in a civilian zone like that.

 

[The Guard]

Yeah, that's true to Stark's character.

Eh, I disagree. In The Avengers, they're new friends who have stuff in common. In AoU, their relationship has evolved into them being pretty close to brothers. It was pretty obvious IMO. The bond between them was much closer than between them and any other members of the team.

It's not executed well, then. Because it was hardly apparent. They were two smart guys who happened to be working together.

What would you have liked to see with Stark regarding making him more human?

Literally anything that wasn't a joke or a speech.

Stark is by far the most developed character in the MCU, and maybe any comicbook movie.

Not a feather in the MCU's cap. And no, no he is not the most developed character in any comic book movie.

He changed from a selfish playboy with no regard for others into a hero in IM1, a guy who "doesn't play well with others" becoming the guy who makes the big sacrifice in The Avengers, to showing his PTSD and the consequences his life as Iron Man have had on him in IM3, to showing how he created what he feared in AoU because of his dangerous combination of paranoia and obstinance. And his arc will continue in Civil War as he goes further down the misguided path to wanting complete control over everything to protect it.

The whole doesn't play well with others to making the sacrifice play "arc" was thin at best. Tony had been putting himself in danger since IRON MAN.

 

[drod1985]

I dunno, I think everything seemed pretty in character for Tony. I think the only things they could've expanded upon were some guilt over creating Ultron and some sort of emotion or reaction to Bruce's departure. I'm assuming we'll see some of that guilt in Civil War.

 

[Drizzle]

Am I the only one who wasn't a fan of the Mk45 armor? The faceplate seemed off to me.

 

[Boom]

Didn't like Stark's portrayal in this film.

He decides on his own to create an artificial intelligence with alien/HYDRA tech with the intention of policing the world without consulting anyone. When said AI goes rogue and attempts to wipe out the entire human race, you'd think there'd be some sense of consequence for Stark when all was said and done. Nope. He gets to just brush it off and ride off into the sunset. And even after Ultron went horribly horribly wrong, he jumps right into Vision without so much as a fleeting doubt.

My reservations with Iron Man 3 aside, I liked that we got a sense of SOME maturation with Stark in that film. Some sense of character growth. This was more of the arrogant, "have to be the cleverest guy in the room at all times" quipping machine that we've seen before. I've had my fill of it, quite frankly. In fact, it's made worse by the fact that he created a homicidal robot on a whim and couldn't understand why some people would take issue with it. So joke, joke, joke. Snark, snark, snark.

To be completely honest, this puts Civil War at a pretty severe disadvantage for me. Impartiality is thrown out the window. Kick his ass, Cap.

 

[drod1985]

He decides on his own to create an artificial intelligence with alien/HYDRA tech meant to police the world without consulting anyone. When said AI goes rogue and attempts to wipe out the entire human race, you'd think there'd be some sense of consequence for Stark when all was said and done. Nope. He gets to just brush it off and ride off into the sunset.

...In fact, it's made worse by the fact that he designed a homicidal robot on a whim and couldn't understand why some people would take issue with it. So joke, joke, joke. Snark, snark, snark.

I hear you on this, it's the main thing I'd change about Stark's characterization. Defending his actions with the nuke/wormhole story was really strange to me. It wasn't the right move, but even Whedon knew that, as he had Banner advising Stark not to go down that route. So it was a conscious decision to take the character this way. I don't think it was the right decision.

Maybe they did it because they needed to show Tony was committed to perfecting the AI/robot tech, leading to his choice to complete Vision?

 

[hafizbat]

I think that was the point. Tony's becoming so paranoid and faithless that he's willing to do whatever he thinks it takes to protect everyone, no matter how irrational it is and how his friends react.

As a guy who's always been smarter than everyone else, is it really surprising that he would go down this path?

Tony and Cap's exchange said it all. Tony's "Then we'll lose" after Cap says they'll face any threat together should say everything about what's going on in Stark's head.

He may not be as likeable or heroic as before, but this characterization is spot on for the Stark in Civil War. He basically became Marvel's biggest villain in that storyline.

 

[Boom]

The problem is he takes it upon himself to decide what is best for the world. He not only neglected to consult with any government whatsoever, but he doesn't spitball this idea with the Avengers - his friends? The only person he mentions it to is Banner, who he basically pushes into it by taking advantage of Banner's timid nature.

That's how monsters are made. It's egomaniacal self-righteousness, and the fact that it isn't addressed at all with any consequence is incredibly troubling.

Maybe have that moment of self doubt before he starts in on Vision. My last attempt at this is currently threatening the earth. What if this one fails too? Put some weight into the decision.

Truthfully, this character has lost me. Maybe that was the point, I don't know. But I'm all in on Cap next year.

 

[hafizbat]

The problem is he takes it upon himself to decide what is best for the world. That's how monsters are made.

It's egomaniacal self-righteousness, and the fact that isn't addressed at all with any consequence is incredibly troubling.

Exactly. He is becoming a monster. We're watching him go from a hero who would sacrifice his life to save the world to a guy who will be willing to put down Captain America himself.

He's becoming delusional.

 

[Boom]

Then maybe the ending shouldn't have been all sunshine and rainbows with Steve and Tony shaking hands and the latter driving off into the sunset seemingly without a care in the world. This is the same kind of tonal confusion that I've come to take issue with in some of Marvel's films.

Have them kick Tony off the Avengers or something. It was a huge breach of trust that nearly cost billions of lives. Somebody had to make a statement of some kind that things aren't just fine and dandy simply because the threat was thwarted. The fact that the threat happened at all is still an issue that needed addressing.

Kicking Iron Man off the team would have been a huge repercussion, and it would have tied in quite nicely with a government-sanctioned Iron Man in Civil War.

 

[hafizbat]

I think that would be too harsh. Yes, he made a major mistake, but who hasn't? Nearly all of the Avengers are guilty of things as well. Why would they kick off a guy who has been a huge hero for several years and has saved the world over and over, even flying into a wormhole to save them all in New York?

He made a big mistake but it obviously wasn't his intention, and no one is going to kick him off the team. It's also due to him that they were even able to stop Ultron's plan. Still, it was clearly time for Stark to take a break and he left the team on amicable terms, as he should have. Cap and the others were clearly not okay with what Tony did (Thor even choked him) but these guys are family. They forgive and forget and get the job done. The team becoming hostile towards him and demanding his removal would have been too much too fast. He earned the benefit of the doubt.

However, it's not going to go way. Nobody is going to forget the Ultron mistake and next time there's a problem between Stark and the rest you can bet it will come up. Now, it would make sense for there to be repercussions or damaged trusts because Stark would be a repeat offender who didn't learn from his mistakes.

 

[warhorse78]

I can understand The Guard's view on the Hulk v. Hulkbuster scene. Tony could've displayed some emotion or distress over the fact that he was fighting his friend, and that his friend was causing significant damage and civilian casualties. Instead, he joked throughout the fight.

IMO, that's probably just the way Tony copes. He knew what was happening was serious, he knew The Hulk is difficult to hurt, and he also knew Banner had no control at the moment. So he was just himself during the fight. They could've spun the whole scene dramatically, but they just had fun with it instead, which was probably the correct call.

That's what I am getting with the way Tony is portrayed. When around others, he puts up a huge front. An act. Don't forget, he's probably been in the lime light since he was a little boy, so he learned how to cover up any vulnerabilities he had with snark. He did it with Pepper, being mean to her when in reality he did like her. He was mean/sarcastic with the boy in IM3, but we knew he was dealing with some really heavy times in his life, and we see how he treats Steve, but the scene in AOU

Spoiler

where he has a vision of Steve dead, you can see how that hit him like a ton of bricks!

 

[PunyGod]

///

 

[Jaxon]

Tony called Banner by his first name and referenced him as a buddy during that fight. I think it's clear he had personal concern about his friend hulking out and going nuts in a civilian zone like that.

Stark's coping mechanism in life is to make quips about stuff. He has daddy issues, this is what gets engrained in his persona in every situation.

 

[gildedmuse]

So there were definitely consequences to Stark's actions, it's just that they take place super early in the movie. It's Ultron. Ultron is pretty much the biggest consequence you can get from messing with technology the way Stark was without consulting anyone else. After that, it was about Stark trying to deal with those consequences. Unfortunately, I don't know if you've picked this up from every other Stark appearance so far, but he kind of sucks at that. We're honestly lucky Tony didn't make a scene and take off, claiming that since Ultron was his fault he's the one who has to deal with it and refuses the help of the other Avengers.

 

[TalismanRing]

I though AOU built very well on Tony's PSTD from IM3 and what happened in The Avengers with the wormhole. He's seen what no one else has seen, he knows the threat that's out there and there's Wanda playing with his paranoia and fears that he didn't do enough to save them all. And yes humor is Tony's coping mechanism - it certainly doesn't mean he doesn't care, he cares a lot.

I find it interesting that Tony gets all the flack and Bruce seems to skate on by as his his Science Flunkie instead of co-mad scientist? Neither were totally in control though. They said they hadn't even begun to get it to work let alone bring Ultron into being and implement him. From the stinger it seems as if Thanos was pulling some strings with the mind gem in some way.

Also, most of the damage could have been avoided if it wasn't for the twins siding with Ultron trying to murder the Avengers because of their hatred for Stark. The Avengers could have taken him down early on but the twins protected him and before that there was SW messing with Tony's mind and making sure he had the sceptre.

Scarlett Witch unleashed Hulk on a city and yet is welcomed into the team. Why? Because of the power she brings and will use on Ultron instead of them but not because she's on any moral high ground to be talking about how dangerous Stark is and how that's part of Ultron. Tony's hubris and mistakes came at least from a desire to protect and do good. Her actions in this film until her 180 came from a desire to destroy and kill and yet she seemingly gets a pass and is now worthy of being an Avenger.

 

[hafizbat]

^Good points.

I never got the sense that the twins were evil though. They were just kids who grew up with a serious grudge against Stark. I wish there was some more development though.

Tony never interacted with them after the first meeting. A scene or two where they have to work together or interact would have been great as it would show them who Stark really is.

I get that Hawkeye took the "babysitter" role with them but Tony and the Twins should have had a bit more interaction. That plot line was introduced as a way to make the Twins antagonists, but it was never resolved.

 

[gildedmuse]

Also, most of the damage could have been avoided if it wasn't for the twins siding with Ultron trying to murder the Avengers because of their hatred for Stark. The Avengers could have taken him down early on but the twins protected him and before that there was SW messing with Tony's mind and making sure he had the sceptre.

Totally unrelated but when the twins were telling their story about being trapped by the bomb I was torn between being upset by them and thinking, "What is this a Hammer rip off? I'm sorry, I have never seen a Stark's missiles misfire. You guys are either mistaken or dead."

Tony never interacted with them after the first meeting. A scene or two where they have to work together or interact would have been great as it would show them who Stark really is.

I get that Hawkeye took the "babysitter" role with them but Tony and the Twins should have had a bit more interaction. That plot line was introduced as a way to make the Twins antagonists, but it was never resolved.

Yeah, this would have been nice. Especially for Pietro who seemed like the angry of the two.

 

[Loki882]

People seem to forget that Tony is only PARTIALLY responsible for Ultron. First of all, it was Scarlet Witch putting those apocalyptic visions in his head that scared him to the point of wanting to use the scepter to create Ultron. And second, Banner helped him do it. But then again, in the comics, EVERYTHING became Tony's fault post-CW (whether it was completely his fault, or even mostly his fault, or not). So perhaps the films are going down that (irritating) route as well. It's all Tony's fault, even when it isn't.