Why all the hate for "Die Another Day"?

[Kevin Roegele]

I still can't understand how Graves faked his death as Moon, built himself his double identity (based on james Bond, who met him for like 5 minutes), became immensely rich, gained a reputaiton as philantropist and then, voilà, gets knighted, within a year and a half. It just didn,t make sense.

It's a James Bond film.

 

[Everyman]

It's a James Bond film.

Even in a James Bond film, it still doesn't make any sense, MI6 isn't supposed to be so moronic. You have a badguy who isn't dangerous because of himself, but because of the total incompetence of his adversaries. It took something like 15 years to Hugo Drax to establish his alter ego in the novel, Fleming knew that such an operation of infiltration would take a long time.

 

[~†~§iX~†~]

I still can't understand how Graves faked his death as Moon, built himself his double identity (based on james Bond, who met him for like 5 minutes), became immensely rich, gained a reputaiton as philantropist and then, voilà, gets knighted, within a year and a half. It just didn,t make sense.

I can see all f it except the faked death. It is explained how Graves became wealthy, well loved and knighted but it is so badly explained that I didn't pick up on it fully until my third or fourth viewing!......

 

[Everyman]

I can see all f it except the faked death. It is explained how Graves became wealthy, well loved and knighted but it is so badly explained that I didn't pick up on it fully until my third or fourth viewing!......

That's another problem: his faked death was all depending on a confrontation with Bond that Moon couldn't expect.

 

[skruloos]

That's another problem: his faked death was all depending on a confrontation with Bond that Moon couldn't expect.

Not if he already knew his organization was infiltrated, which by all means was revealed in that opening scene. I bet he was aware that it was possibly Bond and just needed the facial recognition software to verify to make sure that his plan would go through as intended.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Keep reading, scum....

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Even in a James Bond film, it still doesn't make any sense, MI6 isn't supposed to be so moronic. You have a badguy who isn't dangerous because of himself, but because of the total incompetence of his adversaries. It took something like 15 years to Hugo Drax to establish his alter ego in the novel, Fleming knew that such an operation of infiltration would take a long time.

The thing about DAD is that it's directed from the point of view that the audience is so familiar with James Bond they'll accept huge cutting of corners and leaps of logic just to get to the good stuff. The attitude was "The bad guy is a suave millionaire with a huge laser-beam weapon just because that's what happens in James Bond films, y'know?" There's precious little internal logic, it's all external. Tamohori wants the audience to be aware they're watching a James Bond film throughout, and never suspend disbelief completely and immerse themselves into the story.

It's no wonder Casino Royale is going back to basics. It feels like there is a lot of bloated crap to get away from in the Bond series, but it's really all from Die Another Day. Up until then, Brosnan's movies were pretty lean and mean, and with TWINE, reached a perfect balance of fantasy and reality.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Even in a James Bond film, it still doesn't make any sense, MI6 isn't supposed to be so moronic. You have a badguy who isn't dangerous because of himself, but because of the total incompetence of his adversaries. It took something like 15 years to Hugo Drax to establish his alter ego in the novel, Fleming knew that such an operation of infiltration would take a long time.

The thing about DAD is that it's directed from the point of view that the audience is so familiar with James Bond they'll accept huge cutting of corners and leaps of logic just to get to the good stuff. The attitude was "The bad guy is a suave millionaire with a huge laser-beam weapon just because that's what happens in James Bond films, y'know?" There's precious little internal logic, it's all external. Tamohori wants the audience to be aware they're watching a James Bond film throughout, and never suspend disbelief completely and immerse themselves into the story.

It's no wonder Casino Royale is going back to basics. It feels like there is a lot of bloated crap to get away from in the Bond series, but it's really all from Die Another Day. Up until then, Brosnan's movies were pretty lean and mean, and with TWINE, reached a perfect balance of fantasy and reality.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Sorry, I just wanted to make sure everyone got my point.

 

[Everyman]

Not if he already knew his organization was infiltrated, which by all means was revealed in that opening scene. I bet he was aware that it was possibly Bond and just needed the facial recognition software to verify to make sure that his plan would go through as intended.

Bond was set up by Miranda Frost, but he would still need to know that there would be a physical confrontation between him and Bond, plan it, and get it successful. He nearly got Bond executed, so he didn't plan the following combat, let alone it's outcome. It's not the major problem with DAD, but it's one of many. The whole character of Gustav Graves is really.

 

[skruloos]

Bond was set up by Miranda Frost, but he would still need to know that there would be a physical confrontation between him and Bond, plan it, and get it successful. He nearly got Bond executed, so he didn't plan the following combat, let alone it's outcome. It's not the major problem with DAD, but it's one of many. The whole character of Gustav Graves is really.

I don't see it so much. I think the following combat would be expected simply based on Bond's mode of operation, which they seem to hint at multiple times in the movie. I think that Moon was aware that as soon as Bond came into the mix, combat and big explosions would follow.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Another (another!) annoying thing about DAD is that Bond is given a ring that shatters glass. Then he's put in a situation that the only thing that could save his life is a ring that shatters glass. That annoys me. It's just lazy, and written backwards ("Bond needs something that shatters glass in this scene, we'll go back and give it to him in the earlier Q scene"). What should happen is that Bond is given a cool gadget which can be used for a variety of prurposes, and he uses it in an inventive and amusing way. There are very few uses 007 could have for the ring except the two things he does use it for in DAD.

 

[skruloos]

Another (another!) annoying thing about DAD is that Bond is given a ring that shatters glass. Then he's put in a situation that the only thing that could save his life is a ring that shatters glass. That annoys me. It's just lazy, and written backwards ("Bond needs something that shatters glass in this scene, we'll go back and give it to him in the earlier Q scene"). What should happen is that Bond is given a cool gadget which can be used for a variety of prurposes, and he uses it in an inventive and amusing way. There are very few uses 007 could have for the ring except the two things he does use it for in DAD.

Yes well that seems to happen in a lot of Bond movies more than others. I mean, how many times do we see a car that has a very special weapon/ability only to have Bond end up in a situation where it would be perfect. That's the problem with the gadgets in general. Sometimes they just seem contrived.

 

[Everyman]

I don't see it so much. I think the following combat would be expected simply based on Bond's mode of operation, which they seem to hint at multiple times in the movie. I think that Moon was aware that as soon as Bond came into the mix, combat and big explosions would follow.

If I am not mistaken, he learnt about Bond's existence and real identity a few minutes after they met, because his right-hand man received a message from (presumably) Frost. And even if he knew Bond, there is simply no way he could rpedict the outcomes of the combat.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Didnt Xao say something like "he's a British Spy" to Moon after the message from Frost? Moon therefore had absolutley no idea who Bond was as Xao had to tell him who he was.

 

[Everyman]

Didnt Xao say something like "he's a British Spy" to Moon after the message from Frost? Moon therefore had absolutley no idea who Bond was as Xao had to tell him who he was.

Exactly. And he had no idea a fight would ensue (he ordered Bond to be executed on the spot), he could just plan faking his death.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Yes well that seems to happen in a lot of Bond movies more than others. I mean, how many times do we see a car that has a very special weapon/ability only to have Bond end up in a situation where it would be perfect. That's the problem with the gadgets in general. Sometimes they just seem contrived.

Yeah, but the gadgets Bond is given has a variety of obvious uses. You can see why Bond would be given a brief case that shoots gas if opened incorrectly, or a car ladden with weapons, or a watch with a laser beam. A ring that shatters glass? Not a lot of obvious uses for that. Even the 'invisible' car is obviously hugely beneficial to Bond.

What DAD does well is Bond's ejector seat gag. Using a gadget 007 would be logically be given, Bond uses it in a clever way to get out of trouble.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Yeah, but the gadgets Bond is given has a variety of obvious uses. You can see why Bond would be given a brief case that shoots gas if opened incorrectly, or a car ladden with weapons, or a watch with a laser beam. A ring that shatters glass? Not a lot of obvious uses for that. Even the 'invisible' car is obviously hugely beneficial to Bond.

What DAD does well is Bond's ejector seat gag. Using a gadget 007 would be logically be given, Bond uses it in a clever way to get out of trouble.

Ah crap - the ejector seat gag - now you've gone and made me remember a bit of DAD that I actually enjoyed ; that and the ensuing expression of joy on Pierce's face when the gag worked. That was pretty cool.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Ah crap - the ejector seat gag - now you've gone and made me remember a bit of DAD that I actually enjoyed ; that and the ensuing expression of joy on Pierce's face when the gag worked. That was pretty cool.

Agreed, and the shot of the car flipping over to just avoid a missile was one of the few effective and cool action beats.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Agreed, and the shot of the car flipping over to just avoid a missile was one of the few effective and cool action beats.

Yet another example of why Bond must always be stunt work over CG.

 

[~†~§iX~†~]

Yeah, but the gadgets Bond is given has a variety of obvious uses. You can see why Bond would be given a brief case that shoots gas if opened incorrectly, or a car ladden with weapons, or a watch with a laser beam. A ring that shatters glass? Not a lot of obvious uses for that. Even the 'invisible' car is obviously hugely beneficial to Bond.

What DAD does well is Bond's ejector seat gag. Using a gadget 007 would be logically be given, Bond uses it in a clever way to get out of trouble.

On the contrary side, a great Bond moment is in Live and Let Die, where we all assume that the magnetic watch will get him the boat out of the crocodile pen, but it doesn't. Great sense of drama!......

 

[Kevin Roegele]

On the contrary side, a great Bond moment is in Live and Let Die, where we all assume that the magnetic watch will get him the boat out of the crocodile pen, but it doesn't. Great sense of drama!......

Exactly. Which leads to one of the great stunts of the series.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Although we've all seen the outake where one of the croc's grabs the stuntman's foot, right? They should have added that bit into the film.

Bloody hell, that was such a dangerous stunt.....

 

[BatMatt]

just caught it again on TV last night it had been a long time

I can definitely see where the criticism lies, however I will always love Pierce as Bond

 

[Two-Face]

I liked opening of DAD, Bond gets captured and tortured after year and half M descides that she won't need 007 anymore, I would be pissed off I was told that I wouldn't needed after Bond escapes to deal with a villain that is younger than him then came gadgets "invisible car" and car chase on ice stuff. I can see bit that why 007 producers went to CR novel to be more human.