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Why are Wally West, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown considered "TOXIC"?

Wally fans have themselves to blame.
Fans of the Flash don't even care about him. Despite being such a great character, prior to Barry's return, sales have been pretty miserable. Despite having huge names creators like Johns and Waid, no one gave a sht about The Flash.
So obviously, Barry's return signify the return to the silver age, and that means, movie producers can start writing about The Flash without having to think how to write Barry Allen's death into Wally West's life.
This also signifies that there isn't big enough a market for two Flash to be running around DCU. Besides, Wally West really is pretty interchangeable with Barry Allen.
Just look at this forum, there isn't even much activity for The Flash
You seem to forget that DC intentionally f***ed the Flash's comic up prior to Barry's return by placing Bart in the role in an ostensible ongoing that DiDio knew was only going to be a temporary stopgap, then bringing Waid back for possibly the most disappointing Flash story of all time. Prior to that, the Flash was on a creative high with Johns, Millar and Morrison, and Waid, with consistently solid sales, for about 15 years. DC drove the Flash's sales into the ground prior to Barry's return by putting out terrible Flash comics. You can't blame the fans if they spoke with their wallets. In fact, that's what the publishers always claim to want so that they can write off any fans complaining about their comics online as a vocal minority who don't really matter because any real dissatisfaction would be reflected in the sales.
 
You seem to forget that DC intentionally f***ed the Flash's comic up prior to Barry's return by placing Bart in the role in an ostensible ongoing that DiDio knew was only going to be a temporary stopgap, then bringing Waid back for possibly the most disappointing Flash story of all time. Prior to that, the Flash was on a creative high with Johns, Millar and Morrison, and Waid, with consistently solid sales, for about 15 years. DC drove the Flash's sales into the ground prior to Barry's return by putting out terrible Flash comics. You can't blame the fans if they spoke with their wallets. In fact, that's what the publishers always claim to want so that they can write off any fans complaining about their comics online as a vocal minority who don't really matter because any real dissatisfaction would be reflected in the sales.

Still... There isn't a market for so many Flash running around. Bart Allen can't even get his own ongoing. Even if they rebooted Bart Allen off and made Wally West some other Speedster, I doubt there could be a market for 2 books on Flash. Not everyone is Batman.
So its either Barry or Wally and considering how its easier to make a movie with Barry, I say DC did a good choice.
 
There's only ever been one Flash series. No one knows whether the characters could support a franchise because no one's tried it. A whole line of Green Lantern comics was all but unthinkable a few years ago too, yet now it's flourishing.
 
Bart Allen was in DCU presents and despite the great reviews it was only mediocre sales.
If Flash can support another book, do you not think that DC would print it?
Just saying
 
Bart Allen was in DCU presents and despite the great reviews it was only mediocre sales.
If Flash can support another book, do you not think that DC would print it?
Just saying
At this point? No, I don't. That Bart was featured in another series means nothing because the Flashes are not, as you implied, interchangeable. The higher-ups obviously have a vested interest in promoting Barry, but a good portion of the fans continue to bring Wally up at every opportunity. Adding another Flash series featuring Wally to the publishing line might very well result in a successful comic, but it would also give those fans who may be reading Barry's series because it's the only game in town an alternative and a reason to drop Barry's series. We're all speculating, obviously, but I suspect the suits at DC don't want to risk that.
 
The double-loss of both Stephanie and Oracle is the worst part for me.

How can they still fit in four Robins in Batman's five-year history (well, one non-Robin) and say Barbara was Batgirl-Oracle-Batgirl yet cut out other female characters?

The timeline is so strange for the Batman comics now. They should have just scratched most of the Bat characters and reintroduce them slowly again. Instead they wanted to eat their cake and have it. So they ditched anyone with a little diversity.
 
At this point? No, I don't. That Bart was featured in another series means nothing because the Flashes are not, as you implied, interchangeable. The higher-ups obviously have a vested interest in promoting Barry, but a good portion of the fans continue to bring Wally up at every opportunity. Adding another Flash series featuring Wally to the publishing line might very well result in a successful comic, but it would also give those fans who may be reading Barry's series because it's the only game in town an alternative and a reason to drop Barry's series. We're all speculating, obviously, but I suspect the suits at DC don't want to risk that.

Agree to disagree.
I don't think there is a market for two Flash. Its likely that with the second book, it'll drag down sales for both books. Stephanie was supposedly one of the characters that received lots of love online. Yet when she became Batgirl, despite good reviews, sales was very average.
Also despite Babs being so hated everywhere online, sales continue to be strong. It shows that people online are a very small percentage of buyers and probably too small to make an impact on buying behaviour.
We can certainly speculate and thats what you and I are doing. But over the year of analysing sales figures, I don't think there is a market for 2 Flash or Aquaman book. GL was able to do it because GL had always had 2 books. Theres an infinite possibilities for a whole corps. GL also maintained at two books, all the way until 3 huge events, sinestro corp war, blackest night and brightest day, to get a 3rd book. That is coupled with the fact that GL released a new movie and then with the reboot a 4th book.
But the difference is all 4 GL books are very different in nature. Its not just a different cast, but a very different concept.
GL - earth bound book about Hal and Sinestro that sometimes goes into space.
GLC - pretty much in OA most of the time and deals with the whole corp.
GLNG - Kyle leading all the different lantern corps and forming his own team.
RL - Book about villains.
They are all very different in nature whereas a second Flash book, would mostly revolve around the same concept. Unless DC decides to go a total different area like Flash and the rogues where Wally teams up with a few members of the rogues who turned over a new leaf or got forced into it. Or some other interesting concept.
At the same time, there also isn't a space for another book about Cass or Steph.
Prior to the reboot theres Batgirl, BOP and Gotham City SIrens.
Now theres Batgirl, Batwoman, BOP and Catwoman. Adding a new book with a female lead in gotham would be a little oversaturating the market. Which is why if Steph or Cass returns, they would be either in supporting roles or in a team book not in gotham.
Prior to the reboot, Dick and Tim had their own books and Damien had B&R.
Now Dick still has his own book but Tim lost his and joined the titans, Damien also had his own book and we got RH&TO which is basically "Titans" but with a different cast and set in gotham. So really, there isn't much to complain about. Sure they could easily throw Steph and Cass into a team book. But then again, it seems like there'll be too many similar characters at the start. So I think putting them aside and reintroducing them and making them more differentiated would benefit DC and fans in the long run.
The reason why there are so many Robins is because they sell.
 
So obviously, Barry's return signify the return to the silver age, and that means, movie producers can start writing about The Flash without having to think how to write Barry Allen's death into Wally West's life.

It's not that hard. It's this thing called backstory. Movies do it all the time.
 
The double-loss of both Stephanie and Oracle is the worst part for me.

How can they still fit in four Robins in Batman's five-year history (well, one non-Robin) and say Barbara was Batgirl-Oracle-Batgirl yet cut out other female characters?

The timeline is so strange for the Batman comics now. They should have just scratched most of the Bat characters and reintroduce them slowly again. Instead they wanted to eat their cake and have it. So they ditched anyone with a little diversity.

If they ever did that I would stop buying anything from DC

Given that Kate Kane is one of the only DC characters i care about and certainly the only Bat character that I even remotely care about in the slightest if they ever for rid of her or rebooted the Bat titles and erased her I would boycott DC permanently
 
Well my favorite character has been erased (Wally) and they're destroying my second favorite (Tim). Maybe I should boycott DC.... but I like a lot of the books they're publishing and it wouldn't make a difference anyway.
 
I got really into Flash for a while when Johns was writing Wally. Then, after Infinite Crisis, I believe, Bart took over. I stuck with that for a few issues but lost interest. I tried to get back into it a couple times, and even read all of Rebirth and the first few issues of the Barry series, but it just hasn't been the same for me since before Bart took over for that period.
 
The current Flash comic book is pretty fun right now its worth checking out :)
 
The double-loss of both Stephanie and Oracle is the worst part for me.

How can they still fit in four Robins in Batman's five-year history (well, one non-Robin) and say Barbara was Batgirl-Oracle-Batgirl yet cut out other female characters?

The timeline is so strange for the Batman comics now. They should have just scratched most of the Bat characters and reintroduce them slowly again. Instead they wanted to eat their cake and have it. So they ditched anyone with a little diversity.
The way I look at it for Batman is I ignore what DC says and just look at it as Batman has been around for about 10 years and that should place him at 30 or 31 depending if he started around the age of 20 or 21. Which would make him 5 years older than Superman/Clark Kent who is right now suppose to be 25. That is the only way I can see how things may have worked out the way they did. Because looking at it that way in year 1.5 he gets the first Robin and around there Batgirl shows up. Year 5 you have Jason too and him dying around that time maybe a year later. Year 8 he meets "Tim" and Time becomes Red Robin. In year 10 you have Damian and we move on from there. The whole Darkseid thing and everything else IMO never happened.
 
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That's what I do to

I just ignore the timeline and make up my own

Batman has to have been around for at least ten years so I ignore anything DC say that contradicts that
 
Because they're not who Geoff Johns and Dan Didio grew up with and things they grew up with are naturally superior and the existence of anything else is blasphemous insult to the things they grew up with so coexistence is impossible.

Also those guys are ****ing tools.



QFT. I grew up with Cassandra, Wally, Tim and Kyle. They're not superior because I grew up with them. They're superior because they gave the DCU a sense of natural progression. It was amazing. One of the reasons I was always partial to DC. You got to see the old heroes grow older and pass their mantles on to the next generation. It all started going downhill when they decided to bring back Hal, and than Barry. But even that I managed to digest. But not the new 52. I regurgitated that ****.
 
QFT. I grew up with Cassandra, Wally, Tim and Kyle. They're not superior because I grew up with them. They're superior because they gave the DCU a sense of natural progression. It was amazing. One of the reasons I was always partial to DC. You got to see the old heroes grow older and pass their mantles on to the next generation. It all started going downhill when they decided to bring back Hal, and than Barry. But even that I managed to digest. But not the new 52. I regurgitated that ****.

I think that is one thing DC was so great about, and really separated them from Marvel (not saying DC is/was better or worse, but different). I really liked that characters could grow up. Dick Grayson as Batman was so much fun for me. Tim Drake growing out of the Robin title (partially because Damian came along, of course) was also really cool. Marvel then did it with Bucky taking over as Captain America, and even with Steve Rogers back as the "top cop," it was really interesting.

Oh well.
 
You seem to forget that DC intentionally f***ed the Flash's comic up prior to Barry's return by placing Bart in the role in an ostensible ongoing that DiDio knew was only going to be a temporary stopgap, then bringing Waid back for possibly the most disappointing Flash story of all time. Prior to that, the Flash was on a creative high with Johns, Millar and Morrison, and Waid, with consistently solid sales, for about 15 years. DC drove the Flash's sales into the ground prior to Barry's return by putting out terrible Flash comics. You can't blame the fans if they spoke with their wallets. In fact, that's what the publishers always claim to want so that they can write off any fans complaining about their comics online as a vocal minority who don't really matter because any real dissatisfaction would be reflected in the sales.


QFT.

Wally's book was the hottest title at DC until Identity Crisis/Infinite Crisis and the horrid "reboot" with Bart Allen in the role. Those 13 issues are Some of the Worst Flash comics since The trial of Barry Allen back in the late 80's.

After that disaster, then they brought Wally back in some bad stories only to dump him to a secondary role for Barry Allen in Flash Rebirth.

If anything there was a plan by DC Editorial to sabotage Wally's rep to make Barry look good.


Wally still has a huge following that wants to see him in a comic again. Even though Didio and Co worship the ground Barry Allen runs on.
 
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan f**k Barry Allen. :o

Also, I'm glad whats his face got banned. That guy irked me. He was irksome.
 
Kuro was awesome.

Only now, when it's too late do I understand his pain....his passion. :(
 

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