Why do people say Zack Snyder doesn’t respect comics?

[Frodo]

Interesting topic. The term "respect" is a loaded word in fandom, and Snyder is certainly a polarizing figure.

In terms of "respecting the comics" , ultimately, there is a huge variety and spectrum in the comics cannon of Batman and Superman, that includes elseworlds stories, let alone if we're talking about these characters on Tv , film, animation, books, games, etc.

Whether its William Dozier, Tim Burton, Paul Dini, Chris Nolan, Matt Reeves, Richard Donner, Gough and Miller, Deborah Joy Levine, etc, they're all going to use the comics as one of many influences in terms of shaping their interpretation of the Batman and Superman myths.

So the question of whether Snyder "respects the comics" comes down to what you mean by "respects" and which "comics" you're talking about.

"Respect" is subjective when it comes to fanboys , and everyone has their own definition of it.
One's definition of it informs the answer to the respect question, and i'm skeptical there's a consensus in fandom as to what that definition is.

Which "comics" we're talking about is also subjective given there are 80 odd years worth of comics which have taken these characters everywhere from fighting the Axis powers, to Space Aliens, from The Dark Knight Returns, to Superman red son.

Even if I could define "respect" in this context, and narrow down which " comics" we're talking about, I can't really answer the question whether Snyder "respects the comics", because that also involves reading his mind or knowing his inner feelings.

The only thing I can only really comment on in this case, is my own preferences.

I didn't like his version of Batman in BvS . I actually like MOS for the most part ,but certainly didn't like Superman in BvS.

I'm still gonna watch the JL Snyder cut since I'm a completest, and I want to see what we might have gotten.

Still though, Snyder's vision is not my favorite.

 

[Redd5]

Batman v Superman literally establishes that he's branding criminals now, and a Bat-brand is a virtual death sentence when you go to prison. No brands for Joker or Harley Quinn though.

He killed all of Lex Luthor's thugs to get to the kryptonite as well, and he was willing to kill Superman.

So any defense is flimsy at best. There's no excuse for killing nameless thugs but not killing Joker and Harley Quinn, who both murdered his adopted son, and letting them walk around free when all they do is commit more acts of vicious murder and mayhem.

The branding iron wasn’t a death sentence Luthor paid the guys in prison to kill the traffickers to make Batman look bad

if you mean the car chase again it was mainly in self defense considering they were shooting rockets at him and he didn’t get the kryptonite. If you mean raiding LexCorp they never imply he killed anyone. They’re all being carried away on stretchers not in body bags

only Superman he prepared to kill because he is a godlike alien. If it’s any consolation David Ayer tweeted a while ago Batman broke Joker’s teeth after Jason’s death (which may or may not be retconned as Dick Grayson especially since a Nightwing movie was announced a while ago)

It's not fallacious at all considering Snyder, Goyer, and Terrio all lifted swaths of that comic and incorporated it throughout the film.

Yes there are massive differences, but that's the point. Snyder and the writers didn't get the nuance of Miller's Dark Knight Returns. The parts they adapted were superficial at best because Miller truly doesn't understand these stories on a fundamental or thematic level.

how ironic you criticizing Snyder for focusing on imagery and ignoring the actual story. Yes Snyder used many elements from TDKR just as Nolan used elements and imagery from Knightfall but no one calls it a Knightfall movie. It also borrows from No Man’s Land and TDKRe. Thor Ragnarok used elements of planet hulk but it isn’t a planet hulk movie. BvS is not an adaptation of TDKR and doesn’t try to be. If Snyder wanted to make TDKR I’m sure it’d end up more like Watchmen or 300. TDKR doesn’t fit this universe’s context. Batman and Superman don’t have any history here, Superman isn’t a government stooge and Batman isn’t retired. It has its own message of how Batman has fallen and becoming a monster unlike Miller’s story. That’s like saying Spiderman Homecoming is an adaptation of the Ditko Lee Spider Man because it uses some imagery

 

[Redd5]

Those weren't the only times in the film.

Those are flimsy excuses for the people he murdered in that film. Not to mention the people he murdered at the end to SAVE MARTHA!

So what if they opened fire on him?

you need to learn the definition of murder

the main times he kills are the batmobile chase and the batwing outside the warehouse. In both cases the henchmen opened fire first with machine guns and rockets. It matters because it isn’t murder but self defense. Is Batman suppose to just sit there and be shot at? At best he could shoot out the tires and MAYBE have the car spin out of control and not hurt anyone. Batman isn’t murdering them but he also isn’t trying to preserve their lives either because he has accepted he is just a criminal and crime can’t be stopped permanently

now in the warehouse fight there aren’t many people that are confirmed or obviously dead. The main ones being the 2 guys with the grenades and KGBeast with the other guy with the gun. Both are ‘indirect’ kills. All Batman did was hit the guy with the grenade. He could’ve rolled out of the way but he tried to grab it. KGBeast threatened to kill Martha and Batman shot his gas tank. It’s most likely he’s dead but he could also come back since Luthor escaped the penitentiary and KGBeast usually is enhanced with cybernetics but until then let’s say he’s dead. He’s arguably the closest thing to a murder victim but again he was threatening to kill a person and again it was “indirect”. If Batman were to be put in a court of law he’d probably be charged with vigilante action, disturbance of peace, property damage, aggravated assault, manslaughter, vehicular assault and at most murder in the third degree. He didn’t pre plan any of those death because there was no way to predict that stuff

His redemption wasn’t at that moment but after Superman’s sacrifice. He simply realized he was about to become the thing he swore against

 

[Superchan]

The majority of complaints regarding Snyder's work isn't whether he respects the source material or not but rather his poor story telling ability. That's why he hasn't had a legitimate box office hit since 2007 (300) or why he hasn't had a positively reviewed movie since 2009 (watchmen) or why his movies, even the ones that tend to make money like MOS and BvS, have a pathetic box office multiplier indicating that the audience check out pretty quickly.

Dick Donner once said: "take the material seriously but don't take yourself seriously" but Zack seems to take himself way too seriously, seemingly trying to "grow up" characters like Superman and Batman that are ultimately meant to be for kids. Even when telling poignant stories regarding these characters, one shouldn't forget that atleast some of the Juvenal aspects of these characters should be embraced and not shied away from just because you're still stuck in the late 90s, early 2000s 'let's go dark and adult with the material' way of thinking.
I still remember this interview of Snyder's when he was talking about how he didn't want to have Superman and Batman interacting too much while in costumes because "one guy with a S on his chest while the other is dressed like a Bat just standing there talking" is just silly. It's that way of thinking that caused his DC universe to fail with the fans, the critics and most importantly the general audience.

 

[Erzengel]

Batman v. Superman was the 8th highest grossing CBM when it was released, but I don't feel that's because Snyder made something special, it's because it was a movie about Batman & Superman. However, the steep drop off after the opening weekend, shows that he didn't produce something that really appealed to the general audience.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Why do people think Snyder doesn’t respect comics? Here’s why:

“Someone says to me: ‘[Ben Affleck’s] Batman killed a guy, I’m like, ‘F*** really? Wake the f*** up.’...Once you’ve lost your virginity to this f***ing movie and then you come and say to me something about, like, ‘My superhero wouldn’t do that,’ I’m like, ‘Are you serious?’ I’m, like, down the f***ing road on that...It’s a cool point of view to be like, ‘My heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn’t f***ing lie to America. My heroes didn’t embezzle money from their corporations. My heroes didn’t commit any atrocities.’ That’s cool. But you’re living in a f***ing dream world.”
-Zack Snyder


He’s a foul mouthed immature child who likes killing ants with a magnifying glass. every interview I hear with him makes me think of this:

View attachment 35222

Basically this. It is one thing to have your own vision for what you want these films to be. Most people aren't asking for slavish recreations of the comics. Tim Burton did his own thing. Christopher Nolan did his own thing. But they (at least to my knowledge) don't talk like the above. It goes beyond just what is on the screen. We say Snyder doesn't respect the comics because every time he opens his mouth he shows he doesn't respect it. He insults comics, talks down to the fanbase, and treats them like they are morons if they don't agree with him.

He also spends years trying to undermine DC trying to move on from his disastrous run by fanning the flames for a Snyder Cut instead of just moving on. Joel Schumacher tanked Batman too, but he at least acted like an adult, didn't make excuses, and apologized to the fans who didn't like Batman & Robin. Snyder had a temper tantrum like a 2 year old.

 

[TheVileOne]

The branding iron wasn’t a death sentence Luthor paid the guys in prison to kill the traffickers to make Batman look bad

if you mean the car chase again it was mainly in self defense considering they were shooting rockets at him and he didn’t get the kryptonite. If you mean raiding LexCorp they never imply he killed anyone. They’re all being carried away on stretchers not in body bags

only Superman he prepared to kill because he is a godlike alien. If it’s any consolation David Ayer tweeted a while ago Batman broke Joker’s teeth after Jason’s death (which may or may not be retconned as Dick Grayson especially since a Nightwing movie was announced a while ago)

It was considered a death sentence before he paid off the prisoners to kill the trafficker.

What does it being self defense matter? He still murdered all those guys.

 

[Redd5]

It was considered a death sentence before he paid off the prisoners to kill the trafficker.

What does it being self defense matter? He still murdered all those guys.

It is heavily implied Luthor paid off more than the one guy. Even then that isn’t a direct kill

You literally contradicted yourself. First degree murder is premeditated. The only thing premeditated was stealing the kryptonite not killing anyone. Self defense cannot be murder in a court of law. He isn’t going out of his way to kill. If someone points a gun at you you have the right to defend yourself even if the person does. Batman has killed in self defense when it was absolutely necessary. The issue with this Batman is he is grizzled, broken and is losing his humanity adopting a nihilistic worldview and believing he is ultimate a hypocrite which is why he isn’t concerned about preserving life

 

[TheVileOne]

It is heavily implied Luthor paid off more than the one guy. Even then that isn’t a direct kill

That doesn't really excuse branding criminals. Batman isn't aware of Luthor's activities until the end either. He knows the perception behind the brandings, so this is all just semantics.

You literally contradicted yourself. First degree murder is premeditated. The only thing premeditated was stealing the kryptonite not killing anyone. Self defense cannot be murder in a court of law. He isn’t going out of his way to kill. If someone points a gun at you you have the right to defend yourself even if the person does. Batman has killed in self defense when it was absolutely necessary. The issue with this Batman is he is grizzled, broken and is losing his humanity adopting a nihilistic worldview and believing he is ultimate a hypocrite which is why he isn’t concerned about preserving life

How do you know his killings of those guards and thugs was not premeditated? At the very least its manslaughter or third degree murder.

 

[The Batman]

Batman v. Superman was the 8th highest grossing CBM when it was released, but I don't feel that's because Snyder made something special, it's because it was a movie about Batman & Superman. However, the steep drop off after the opening weekend, shows that he didn't produce something that really appealed to the general audience.

The domestic legs for BvS were weak enough that after 2-3 weeks, a random, forgettable Melissa McCarthy film managed to beat BvS at the Box Office.

 

[Redd5]

That doesn't really excuse branding criminals. Batman isn't aware of Luthor's activities until the end either. He knows the perception behind the brandings, so this is all just semantics.



How do you know his killings of those guards and thugs was not premeditated? At the very least its manslaughter or third degree murder.

yeah but he simply doesn’t care. He doesn’t think it’s his problem. He did his part. Again this Batman is more broken and nihilistic. He has accepted crime can’t be stopped and that he is just a criminal. It’s the prisons fault more so not keeping a closer eye one its inmates especially when it has become a problem. They should put those guys in solitary confinement

Yes because Batman could predict he’d ram into a car then use said car as a wrecking ball to launch into another car or that he’d swerve from an oncoming gas truck leading him to launch himself off a ramp crashing to into half the semi truck. I know the jokes of Batman has a contingency for everything but half of what happened was random chaos. But once again you overlook in a court of law he could claim self defense as he didn’t begin shooting until the thugs started shooting rockets and machine guns at him. It’s not even like the bat mobile having weapons is anything new

Once again nothing implied he killed the guards at LexCorp. They were all on stretchers not body bags

 

[Babillygunn]

It is heavily implied Luthor paid off more than the one guy. Even then that isn’t a direct kill

You literally contradicted yourself. First degree murder is premeditated. The only thing premeditated was stealing the kryptonite not killing anyone. Self defense cannot be murder in a court of law. He isn’t going out of his way to kill. If someone points a gun at you you have the right to defend yourself even if the person does. Batman has killed in self defense when it was absolutely necessary. The issue with this Batman is he is grizzled, broken and is losing his humanity adopting a nihilistic worldview and believing he is ultimate a hypocrite which is why he isn’t concerned about preserving life

whether it’s murder, manslaughter, reckless or wanton homicide doesn’t matter. Batman IS concerned about preserving life. It’s a core of his character.

 

[Redd5]

whether it’s murder, manslaughter, reckless or wanton homicide doesn’t matter. Batman IS concerned about preserving life. It’s a core of his character.

yes and that is why this batman is shown to be strange. He is older and more nihilistic and Alfred comments on that very thing asking him about these "new rules". He is is borderline the villain which is why he realizes his error at the end with Superman's sacrifice and him saying men are good

 

[Redd5]

The majority of complaints regarding Snyder's work isn't whether he respects the source material or not but rather his poor story telling ability. That's why he hasn't had a legitimate box office hit since 2007 (300) or why he hasn't had a positively reviewed movie since 2009 (watchmen) or why his movies, even the ones that tend to make money like MOS and BvS, have a pathetic box office multiplier indicating that the audience check out pretty quickly.

Dick Donner once said: "take the material seriously but don't take yourself seriously" but Zack seems to take himself way too seriously, seemingly trying to "grow up" characters like Superman and Batman that are ultimately meant to be for kids. Even when telling poignant stories regarding these characters, one shouldn't forget that atleast some of the Juvenal aspects of these characters should be embraced and not shied away from just because you're still stuck in the late 90s, early 2000s 'let's go dark and adult with the material' way of thinking.
I still remember this interview of Snyder's when he was talking about how he didn't want to have Superman and Batman interacting too much while in costumes because "one guy with a S on his chest while the other is dressed like a Bat just standing there talking" is just silly. It's that way of thinking that caused his DC universe to fail with the fans, the critics and most importantly the general audience.

I'd like a source for that and if that is true I guess he changed his mind considering 80 percent of Batman and Superman's interactions are in their costumes. In fact I'm pretty sure there is only one scene where "Bruce Wayne" and "Clark Kent" speak directly face to face. After that it is all in costumes. Compare that to say Marvel. How often do the characters interact in their costumes vs in regular clothes?

 

[Erzengel]

"I kinda came to the conclusion also that they couldn't really talk in their suits, um, with any credibility..."

"... more than 4 or 5 lines and you start to notice, like wait, these are two guys ... one guys dressed up like a bat and the other has a big red 'S' on his chest, and they're being super serious about how mad they are at each other..."

Batman v Superman: 10 things we learned

I know a lot of people who work with Snyder find him very affable and they seem to have a real affection towards him, but when he gives interviews, he's either being intentionally trollish or he just has a real hard time communicating what he's trying to say.

 

[The Guard]

Batman v Superman literally establishes that he's branding criminals now, and a Bat-brand is a virtual death sentence when you go to prison.

Pretty sure Luthor had something to do with that, didn't he?

No brands for Joker or Harley Quinn though

And the reason for this could be as simple as that he's not encountered them since he started doing it.

He almost brands Luthor, after all.

The movie doesn't show him going out of his way to just...brand every criminal he ever met, there's no reason to believe he would do so just...because.

Like I said, there's no reasonable logic that says that because he does thing A in a specific instance that he would also do thing A in a different one.

That's. Not. How. People. Work.

He killed all of Lex Luthor's thugs to get to the kryptonite as well, and he was willing to kill Superman.

He certainly killed many of them. All of them? Eh...

Being willing to do so does not mean you always will.

So any defense is flimsy at best. There's no excuse for killing nameless thugs but not killing Joker and Harley Quinn, who both murdered his adopted son, and letting them walk around free when all they do is commit more acts of vicious murder and mayhem.

As I've pointed out, any defense of not killing The Joker in ANY circumstance is flimsy. That extends to the government and law that allows them to survive to kill again and again and again. It's essentially an emotional decision, not a logical one in most versions of the story.

You seem to want to very selectively apply logic here, though.

Those are flimsy excuses for the people he murdered in that film. Not to mention the people he murdered at the end to SAVE MARTHA!

Also essentially in self defense, both of himself and Martha (killing in defense of someone else is also technically self-defense, I believe). He blows up the machine gunners shooting at the Batplane, he takes out the guy who is threatening him with a grenade, and he takes out the others who attack him as well.

That doesn't really excuse branding criminals. Batman isn't aware of Luthor's activities until the end either. He knows the perception behind the brandings, so this is all just semantics.

It's not semantics. If you scar someone and someone else kills them because you scarred them, you still did not actively kill that person. You're not even a remote accessory to that murder unless you actively plan it and/or pay for it.

No one said it's excusable. The movie clearly paints his descent into violence as a bad thing and as morally wrong, so it's not meant to be excused. He's one of the villains of the movie.

 

[Detective Conan]

Batman v Superman: 10 things we learned

I know a lot of people who work with Snyder find him very affable and they seem to have a real affection towards him, but when he gives interviews, he's either being intentionally trollish or he just has a real hard time communicating what he's trying to say.

Well the man was never the most eloquent guy.

 

[Flint Marko]

Why do people think Snyder doesn’t respect comics? Here’s why:

“Someone says to me: ‘[Ben Affleck’s] Batman killed a guy, I’m like, ‘F*** really? Wake the f*** up.’...Once you’ve lost your virginity to this f***ing movie and then you come and say to me something about, like, ‘My superhero wouldn’t do that,’ I’m like, ‘Are you serious?’ I’m, like, down the f***ing road on that...It’s a cool point of view to be like, ‘My heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn’t f***ing lie to America. My heroes didn’t embezzle money from their corporations. My heroes didn’t commit any atrocities.’ That’s cool. But you’re living in a f***ing dream world.”
-Zack Snyder


He’s a foul mouthed immature child who likes killing ants with a magnifying glass. every interview I hear with him makes me think of this:

View attachment 35222

I’ll never get over describing material that was explicitly designed to be escapist fantasies as a “f****ing dream world" like that's some big own.

Like... yes, Zack. That was always kinda the point.

 

[Redd5]

I’ll never get over describing material that was explicitly designed to be escapist fantasies as a “f****ing dream world" like that's some big own.

Like... yes, Zack. That was always kinda the point.

right comics are escapists

 

[extra skater]

To me

Spoiler

HE KILLED JIMMY OLSEN, MAN!

is enough.
You don't do that.

 

[Redd5]

To me

Spoiler

HE KILLED JIMMY OLSEN, MAN!

is enough.
You don't do that.

So did Smallville and several other comics

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Why do people think Snyder doesn’t respect comics? Here’s why:

“Someone says to me: ‘[Ben Affleck’s] Batman killed a guy, I’m like, ‘F*** really? Wake the f*** up.’...Once you’ve lost your virginity to this f***ing movie and then you come and say to me something about, like, ‘My superhero wouldn’t do that,’ I’m like, ‘Are you serious?’ I’m, like, down the f***ing road on that...It’s a cool point of view to be like, ‘My heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn’t f***ing lie to America. My heroes didn’t embezzle money from their corporations. My heroes didn’t commit any atrocities.’ That’s cool. But you’re living in a f***ing dream world.”
-Zack Snyder


He’s a foul mouthed immature child who likes killing ants with a magnifying glass. every interview I hear with him makes me think of this:

View attachment 35222

It's amazing how awful Zack is at talking about his own movies. I tend to come out of his movies with at the very least charitable interpretations of them which promptly evaporate listening to him talk. He seems like a nice guy who loves his fans and is evidently great to work with but he almost always comes off incredibly shallow and adolescent in interviews.

I genuinely enjoy reading thoughtful analysis of his DC films from the many non-crazy Snyderverse fans out there though. They're very good at finding layers of depth and meaning which I'm not entirely convinced are textually present.

 

[Redd5]

It's amazing how awful Zack is at talking about his own movies. I tend to come out of his movies with at the very least charitable interpretations of them which promptly evaporate listening to him talk. He seems like a nice guy who loves his fans and is evidently great to work with but he almost always comes off incredibly shallow and adolescent in interviews.

I genuinely enjoy reading thoughtful analysis of his DC films from the many non-crazy Snyderverse fans out there though. They're very good at finding layers of depth and meaning which I'm not entirely convinced are textually present.

First off it is real convenient none of these interview quote are on camera. It is about as valid as James Gunn supporting pedophilia. Just because one website says so in text doesn't make it true

Regardless I don't get why people hate changes Zack makes but praise it when Marvel does it. Example they completely changed Baron Zemo and yet people hate BvS Luthor for being different. A common argument I see for Zemo is the character needed an update besides being a nazi scientist and yet ignore maybe Lex Luthor needs to be updated outside of a greedy real estate capitalist or a mad scientist. Basically Luthor is more in line to modern day tech billionaires that being quirky and unorthodox individuals like Zuck, Jobs, Musk, Gates, Bezos etc. He certainly came off more interesting and was more risky than a "You killed my family and I want to kill you" type villain (which was literally Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in AoU)

 

[SwordOfMorning]

First off it is real convenient none of these interview quote are on camera. It is about as valid as James Gunn supporting pedophilia. Just because one website says so in text doesn't make it true

Regardless I don't get why people hate changes Zack makes but praise it when Marvel does it. Example they completely changed Baron Zemo and yet people hate BvS Luthor for being different. A common argument I see for Zemo is the character needed an update besides being a nazi scientist and yet ignore maybe Lex Luthor needs to be updated outside of a greedy real estate capitalist or a mad scientist. Basically Luthor is more in line to modern day tech billionaires that being quirky and unorthodox individuals like Zuck, Jobs, Musk, Gates, Bezos etc. He certainly came off more interesting and was more risky than a "You killed my family and I want to kill you" type villain (which was literally Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in AoU)

No, there’s absolutely footage of his dream world tirade. Can’t link it because of language rules but it’s easy to find on YouTube.

The concept of BvS Luthor is great. Eisenberg’s genuinely terrible performance is not. I like most of the changes in concept, I simply find the execution mostly poor.

 

[Iceman]

First off it is real convenient none of these interview quote are on camera. It is about as valid as James Gunn supporting pedophilia. Just because one website says so in text doesn't make it true

Regardless I don't get why people hate changes Zack makes but praise it when Marvel does it. Example they completely changed Baron Zemo and yet people hate BvS Luthor for being different. A common argument I see for Zemo is the character needed an update besides being a nazi scientist and yet ignore maybe Lex Luthor needs to be updated outside of a greedy real estate capitalist or a mad scientist. Basically Luthor is more in line to modern day tech billionaires that being quirky and unorthodox individuals like Zuck, Jobs, Musk, Gates, Bezos etc. He certainly came off more interesting and was more risky than a "You killed my family and I want to kill you" type villain (which was literally Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in AoU)

Because Lex Luthor is one of the biggest villains of all in DC and forgetting mere change, the character was silly even if it hadn’t been Lex Luthor. On the other hand Zemo has nowhere near the importance to Marvel, and the character was fine if it hadn’t been Zemo.