Why do people say Zack Snyder doesn’t respect comics?

[Binker]

You're the only person here being needlessly aggressive. Chill. Don't take criticisms to movies you like so personally. People disliking something in a movie you like isn't a problem with them. It's simply another valid POV that differs from your own.

Criticism is one thing, being a troll is another.

 

[flickchick85]

Criticism is one thing, being a troll is another.

Please, no one was being a troll. Though suggesting people not liking something you like means something is wrong with them... is certainly verging into that territory. My joking response was a polite alternative to a warning. I won't bother next time.

 

[Babillygunn]

I can 100% invest in big OTT emotional "cheesy" moments in superhero movies when the earnestness is built into the movie's foundation and is ultimately part of its charm, but for movies with such built-in cynicism and try-hard "edginess" as BvS? Nah, can't do it.

I agree totally. It’s funny. I always tell my kids that I expect a healthy dose of mischief from them. Not so much that they are clowns or punks, but just enough that they are kids, or at least fun people. But it has to be appropriately placed, well timed and done with right intentions. In the same way, over the top cheese in movies and stories can be charming when done to show earnestness in certain characters. Christopher Reeve got this. That’s why his Superman worked so well. Heck, just about every successful portrayal of Superman gets this. Tomasi gets this, and that’s why his runs on the Superman comics are so good. But OTT moments in grittiness more often than not just means the filmmaker missed the mark, especially when done with an earnest character like Superman. Which is what I think is one of the answers to the original question of why people don’t think Zack Snyder respects the characters

 

[Spider-Fan]

Then the problem is you.

What was this post other than just a passive aggressive way of mudslinging? What kind of constructive debate are you offering here? Instead of just posting things like this, why don't you defend what you're trying to say with evidence? Because this post you made offers absolutely nothing of value to this conversation.

I tell you as a mod, do better. If you cannot offer real debate and can only offer veiled insults, then post somewhere else.

Thank you

 

[Babillygunn]

I think I might ignore this forum for a while after the Snyder cut comes out. Something tells me that it won’t bring out the best in some posters.

 

[STARMAN]

I felt like BvS spent too much time on symbolism and not enough on entertainment.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Snyder's use of mythic and artistic references is one of the many things that make me want to love them and even more disappointed that the execution is so slapdash and inartful.

 

[Brother Jack]

Snyder's use of mythic and artistic references is one of the many things that make me want to love them and even more disappointed that the execution is so slapdash and inartful.

The guy aims high. That's hard to deny, which is why BVS and a lot of his other films remain so interesting and frustrating to dissect. Their failures are spectacular in a way those of other filmmakers are not.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The guy aims high. That's hard to deny, which is why BVS and a lot of his other films remain so interesting and frustrating to dissect. Their failures are spectacular in a way those of other filmmakers are not.

This sounds like a backhanded compliment but BvS is what a bad movie should be. They let a filmmaker take a big, crazy swing and from a studio/general audience perspective he wildly missed. Gambles like that pay off all the time but sometimes you're going to miss.

 

[Flint Marko]

I agree but (broken record time) I will never, ever get over that they bet the house on a guy who had been swinging and exclusively whiffing for nearly a decade.

Why was he all of a sudden expected to crank out a universally loved smash hit that would kick off a massive franchise?

It’d be like getting the Insane Clown Posse to perform at the Super Bowl half time show.

 

[flickchick85]

I felt like BvS spent too much time on symbolism and not enough on entertainment.

OR on characterization, imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

OR on characterization, imo.

I think it spent plenty of time on characterization. The problem was it was the characterization brought to you by Frank Miller after a particularly bad acid trip. Here is a hint. If Alan Moore would write your version of Superman, Batman and Lex Luthor as a dark parody of the group, stop what you are doing and rethink your entire approach.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Please, no one was being a troll. Though suggesting people not liking something you like means something is wrong with them... is certainly verging into that territory. My joking response was a polite alternative to a warning. I won't bother next time.

Maybe he read one of your post from the lounge where you endlessly troll poor Reek's heart, and mistook it for this thread?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

One of the things I appreciate from Zack is how much mythology, allusions and symbolism he adds to these films. We know about Excalibur being used as a major influence through his films, even the pieta for the scene in BvS where Superman is lowered towards Diana and Lois, but there's others that even I didn't know about such as this:

We must not forgot the allusions, symbolism, and the mythologies Zack planted in BvS. These videos are proof:

I would say that throwing a bunch of mythology in your work isn't difficult, and that most do it by accident considering the very origins of storytelling. More importantly what does this really say about Snyder respecting the comics? Because these characters have decades of mythology of their own, much of which is already based on mythology, but refined to fit their characters. If anything, this is a big point against saying Snyder respect the comics and shows he didn't trust the material or the characters. The opposite of what I would say most fans of these characters would want out of their superhero movies.

 

[Snow Queen]

Superman=Jesus is pretty beginner as far as mythological comparisons with the character go.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Superman=Jesus is pretty beginner as far as mythological comparisons with the character go.

Why does it have to be super complicated. Superman=Jesus and Darkseid=Satan is an allegory that really works and I hope they lean into it hard with JL.

 

[Snow Queen]

Why does it have to be super complicated. Superman=Jesus and Darkseid=Satan is an allegory that really works and I hope they lean into it hard with JL.

It doesn't have to be complicated, but just making the most basic, overused comparison one can doesn't make something substantial. It especially becomes obnoxious when the films go to excruciating lengths to make sure you get this very obvious connection they're trying to make. For you it works well, for me it feels uninteresting and played out.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why does it have to be super complicated. Superman=Jesus and Darkseid=Satan is an allegory that really works and I hope they lean into it hard with JL.

It's not a question of complicated imo. It's a question of it being the answer to any criticism about how the characters are handle. Superman being a Jesus like figure is very basic stuff. But when that is all you write the character as, maybe just make a movie about Jesus? Because while I say the analogy is obvious, Clark Kent is so much more then that.

More over, the situation is even more loaded, when so much of Snyder and his fandom are big on how "deep" his movie is, and point hardcore to that aspect. If anything, that proves just how shallow the entire presentation is imo.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Why does it have to be super complicated. Superman=Jesus and Darkseid=Satan is an allegory that really works and I hope they lean into it hard with JL.

I would argue given the deeply Jewish roots of the character overt Christian imagery feels weird and borderline gross. I’ll accept it in the Donner movies because they’re classics from a different time but it’s super lazy and uninteresting. Lean into the actual mythic roots of the character first.

 

[Monochron]

If I could only use one word to describe the whole Superman as Jesus thing in these movies it would be "fetishistic".

 

[Babillygunn]

Interestingly I think the most overt Jesus allegory in comic film was The Dark Knight. One need look no further than that film to see how to use that imagery successfully. Nolan did it well and added an incredible layer of depth, because Jesus has a depth beyond just simplistic “good” and stretched arms. With Snyder it was basically shoe horned and shallow.

 

[STARMAN]

The religious allegory is fine in the background but I dislike when it dominates the story and becomes the character's POV. It's one thing if the people react to him as a Christ-like figure, it's another for Superman to see himself that way.

The screenwriters of Superman Returns said it was hard writing dialogue for Superman because it was like writing dialogue for Jesus. It's the usual trap recent filmmakers fall into by immersing Superman with religious themes until he himself is a religious theme.

I'm weary of Superman as a misunderstood God or an angst-ridden alien. One of the things I would take from the original movie is Superman's POV as Earth's friend. It opens up much more characterization and interaction. It allows the other characters to connect with him and thus the audience watching can connect with him too. This other approach often leaves him cold and distant and someone who you don't want to spend two hours with.

 

[Brother Jack]

I would argue given the deeply Jewish roots of the character overt Christian imagery feels weird and borderline gross. I’ll accept it in the Donner movies because they’re classics from a different time but it’s super lazy and uninteresting. Lean into the actual mythic roots of the character first.

Siegel and Shuster were drawing heavily from messianic archetypes when they were formulating Superman, which would and does include Jesus, but also includes other figures like Moses and Samson. It's not that the Christ allusions aren't there, they are, it's just that they are too heavily relied on. It's a crutch implemented without subtlety or nuance. You don't need to show Clark in a cruciform pose, it's egregious.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Siegel and Shuster were drawing heavily from messianic archetypes when they were formulating Superman, which would and does include Jesus, but also includes other figures like Moses and Samson. It's not that the Christ allusions aren't there, they are, it's just that they are too heavily relied on. It's a crutch implemented without subtlety or nuance. You don't need to show Clark in a cruciform pose, it's egregious.

Superman is so boring. You know why? Because he's too powerful, like Jesus. So what we need to do is to have his personality live out the Passion of the Christ every single film, to make him INTERESTING! Nothing is more INTERESTING then watching a man's character be flayed in 3D IMAX!

 

[Gothamsknight]

My issues with Snyders filmmaking stem from the fact he either misunderstands these characters, or more likely, he doesn't care to understand and thinks others are stupid for doing so. it's true, he aims high, but he rarely ever lands. everything he does is on the nose, and it comes across as if he actually dislikes the true nature of these characters and what they stand for. Making Batmans suit comic book grey doesn't suddenly make that version of Batman a good real life adaption of the source material. Actually, I think it makes it worse simply because it shows the director is not interested at all in what makes these characters stand the test of time. Having Batman being a cold blooded murdered because he's "jaded" is so damn lazy. And telling others to "get real" about it won't convince others to try to see your way either.

The idea of Superman also being boring is debatable. I think getting Superman right in film has been made far harder than it actually should be. He's not a hard character to understand and you don't have to turn him into a murdering, depressed mess to try to get audiences to connect.