Comics Why Does Frank Miller Hate Superman?

[TruerToTheCore]

He even ORGANISES boy scout trips:

 

[Andy C.]

Batman lures kids out into the woods and then feeds them to a giant owl. Very unlike a Boy Scout.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Batman lures kids out into the woods and then feeds them to a giant owl. Very unlike a Boy Scout.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

He even ORGANISES boy scout trips:

Ummmmm.......As I said before, We've been talking about the modern interpretations of each character.

The fact that you continue to only site evidence thats well over 20 years old indicates an innate weakness in your argument.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Here's your "boy Scout"

And its much more recent.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He is just playing the madman.

Deep inside he is the "boy scout leader".

Perhaps he is a bad boy scout?

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

He is just playing the madman.

Deep inside he is the "boy scout leader".

Perhaps he is a bad boy scout?

Or its the other way around.

Ether way he would be kicked out of the boy scoutst:

 

[ironman29758]

Or its the other way around.

Ether way he would be kicked out of the boy scoutst:

Catwoman called him a boyscout once

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Catwoman called him a boyscout once

So whats your point........

I can call somebody a B!+ch.....but it wouldnt make then a female dog.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I really do not understand the obsession to call Superman a boy scout.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I really do not understand the obsession to call Superman a boy scout.

I don't see any obsession about it.

If you follow back a few post I don't really see anyone saying it at all.

But it is a description that more aptly fits Superman then it does Batman in the modern age.

But I don't seem to understand why so many should think that being called a "Boy Scout" should be some kind of an insult.

To be honest we should want someone with Superman's abilities to act like a boy scout.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

One of the great things about "FOr The Man Who Has Everything" is, when Superman goes rampage. You really feel that you simply do not want him to be MAD!


Well, I really think that the "boy scout" has become an insult for Superman. "Ehh Batman would beat him because he is SUCH a BOY SCOUT!" and such things. I don't the see the Golden and Bronze Age Superman as a boy scout.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Superman doesn't appeal to a lot of folks who are legendary comicbook guys...

take denny oneil for example! He did his share of Superman stories, but it was a job.

When he wrote Batman it was a passion. When he wrote Green Lantern Green Arrow it was to be socially concious!

There are a lot of people who just don't like superheroes w/ super abilities!

Ever since the 90's we have kind of expected our heroes to be morally, psychologically flawed

 

[Oddzball]

Frank Miller doesn't hate Superman, Batman and Superman are just not friends.

As seen in Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin, Dark Knight Returns and DK2, Batman thinks Superman is a thick headed idiot just repeating whatever Ma and Pa Kent told him about "truth, justice and the American way", following this conservative patriotic 1950s moral code without giving it a damn thought, and things are not that simple and black and white.

And that is Miller putting his hatred of Superman into Batman's word balloons.

 

[ScottishFogg]

^^^

And that's my frustration. I doesn't feel like "Miller likes Superman, it's Batman that doesn't." In the way the stories are told, Batman is our only hope, despite there being all these other heroes. These other heroes are to be seen as deluded or even feared.

Yet, we have actual DC canon that says the opposite.

Miller's world is Sin City black and white. He lives in a world of absolutes, absolutes defined by his own personal experiences and then flavored with his whacked-out theories and conspiracies.

I think Year One is (quite possibly) the best Batman story out there (though, as soon as I say that, I think of The Killing Joke) . . . I just wish he'd stay the hell away from Superman and the rest of the DC pantheon. He has nothing but contempt for them and I hate the way he mishandles them.

 

[margon]

And that is Miller putting his hatred of Superman into Batman's word balloons.

so what?

they're stories. Superman doesn't need you standing up for him from that mean old hack Frank Millar.

never mind the fact that you confuse 'hate' with a legitimate questioning/examination of what the superman concept respresents.

 

[Sawyer]

I just finished reading the TPB of All-Star Batman and Robin and realized something . . . Frank Miller hates Superman.

Every time he writes a Batman book, he throws in something that makes Superman out to be a clown, a child, or just a puppet of the government. In Miller's books, Bruce belittles Clark, looks down on him, and continually disrespects him. Why is that?

If this was the relationship Supes and Bats have, there would be no way they could have ever been on the Justice League together. They'd never team up. They'd never do anything together.

It's such a stark contrast to the way Loeb writes them. In his run on Superman/Batman, they respect each other and their differences. They actually seem like friends.

So what's Frank's deal? Is he just re-writing Batman, working him into his vision of what he thinks Batman should be like? Making him a character that should haunt Sin City, not Gotham?

People fear/hate what they dont understand.

 

[Oddzball]

so what?

they're stories. Superman doesn't need you standing up for him from that mean old hack Frank Millar.

never mind the fact that you confuse 'hate' with a legitimate questioning/examination of what the superman concept respresents.

Biases taint that 'legitimacy'. Miller is basically taking a dump on Superman in order to make Batman more awesomer dude! BUY THE CHROME and the PLATINUM COVERS of this book too!!

Calling him out on that isn't 'standing up for a fictional character. It's a reader speaking out on what a writer is doing. They are stories. Readers get to judge what they read.

There is the Superman Concept as depicted by Byrne, Stern, Jones, Bridwell, Bates, Hamilton, Binder and a host of other writers. Then there is Frankie all on his ownsome over there screaming "It's a lie. I and I alone, only me know the truth!"

Or it's hatred of the character. Miller may not be fully sane, but I don't think he's that far gone. So my vote went for Hatred.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

There is the Superman Concept as depicted by Byrne, Stern, Jones, Bridwell, Bates, Hamilton, Binder and a host of other writers.

Yes there are different interpretations of his character.

Then there is Frankie all on his ownsome over there screaming "It's a lie. I and I alone, only me know the truth!"

Or maybe Franks just saying "This is MY interpretation/concept of Superman" "This is how I think he would be and how he would fit into MY Batmans world".

Its not like Frank hasn't "re-written" Batman's character ether.

Or it's hatred of the character. Miller may not be fully sane, but I don't think he's that far gone. So my vote went for Hatred.

Franks Batman is hardly recognizable when you compare him to the other works of modern Batman story tellers.

Frank's Batman is pretty much a "Jack Ass" and its not viewed that he hates Batman.

He's simply writing the characters the way he feels they should be written,how he feels they would interact with each other.

Or it's hatred of the character. Miller may not be fully sane, but I don't think he's that far gone. So my vote went for Hatred.

 

[theMan-Bat]

And that is Miller putting his hatred of Superman into Batman's word balloons.

No, that's Miller showing that those two characters are not friends. Superman doesn't say kind things about Batman either.

 

[theMan-Bat]

In the way the stories are told, Batman is our only hope, despite there being all these other heroes. These other heroes are to be seen as deluded or even feared.

Yet, we have actual DC canon that says the opposite.

No, the so-called "actual DC canon" says the same. In the JLA by Grant Morrison for example, Batman is the smartest. He’s taken the League on by himself, and won. Plus, he is the chief strategist and problem solver.

"[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's all just psychology and charisma with Batman. Everyone is wary of him because he's hard as nails, smarter than a bag full of whips and he knows all their flaws and weaknesses. There are just some people in the world that you don't f**k with and Batman is one of them." - Grant Morrison.[/FONT]
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=36&t=002874&go=older

By the way, revealed in Countdown 40; Earth-31 within the DC Multiverse is officially the home of Batman, Superman and all the characters in All-Star Batman & Robin, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and DK2. It's actual DC canon, too. The events from Batman: Year One are mirrored both in Earth-31 continuity as well as New Earth continuity.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No, the so-called "actual DC canon" says the same. In the JLA by Grant Morrison for example, Batman is the smartest. He’s taken the League on by himself, and won. Plus, he is the chief strategist and problem solver.

"[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]It's all just psychology and charisma with Batman. Everyone is wary of him because he's hard as nails, smarter than a bag full of whips and he knows all their flaws and weaknesses. There are just some people in the world that you don't f**k with and Batman is one of them." - Grant Morrison.[/FONT]
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=36&t=002874&go=older

By the way, revealed in Countdown 40; Earth-31 within the DC Multiverse is officially the home of Batman, Superman and all the characters in All-Star Batman & Robin, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns and DK2. It's actual DC canon, too.

Every comic book published by DC comics is "Canon" within its own story.

The question is wether or not the events of any particular story has any bearing on other stories.

And as far as I know [I could be wrong] the only thing that was implied was that Earth 31 was the home of "The Dark Knight Returns" and "DK2" characters.

So far that has been no official connection between Millers "All Star" universe and his "Dark Knight Returns" universe.[again as far as I know].

 

[theMan-Bat]

Every comic book published by DC comics is "Canon" within its own story.

The question is wether or not the events of any particular story has any bearing on other stories.

Absolutely.

And as far as I know [I could be wrong] the only thing that was implied was that Earth 31 was the home of "The Dark Knight Returns" and "DK2" characters.

So far that has been no official connection between Millers "All Star" universe and his "Dark Knight Returns" universe.[again as far as I know].

Frank Miller has stated that All-Star Batman & Robin does take place in what he calls his "Dark Knight universe," officially designated as Earth-31 as seen in Countdown: Arena and stated by Countdown Arena writer Keith Champagne.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12229
http://www.fanboyplanet.com/interviews/mc-countdownarena.php

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kal-El_(Earth-31)
Frank Miller himself said, "DC has allowed me to carve out my own "Dark Knight Universe", letting me play with their characters with abandon." http://archive.comicdom.gr/interviews.php?id=17&lang=en
“Anything I come up with about any of these characters is DKU,” Miller said. In his Dark Knight work, Miller has given readers a glimpse into the twilight years of Batman’s career. In Batman: Year One, he’s shared the beginning of the Batman saga. So where does All-Star Batman fall in his Batman time-table? “Year Three. Bats is feeling his oats—very young, maybe acting a little crazy, but he knows exactly what he's doing. He's just a bit sloppier about doing it than he's going to eventually get.” - Frank Miller.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthrea...threadid=27218
And this Dark Knight Returns character's appearance in Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin makes it obvious that they are indeed officially connected. Miller has made it clear that All-Star Batman & Robin takes place after Year One and before The Dark Knight Returns and DK2.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Frank Miller has stated that All-Star Batman & Robin does take place in what he calls his "Dark Knight universe," officially designated as Earth-31. And this Dark Knight Returns character's appearance in Miller's All-Star Batman & Robin makes it obvious that they are indeed officially connected. Miller has made it clear that All-Star Batman & Robin takes place after Year One and before The Dark Knight Returns and DK2.

I'm sorry but the appearance of "characters" from one book to an other is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between universes.....specifically when we're talking about comic characters that dwell with in a multiverse that is also known to have a few pocket universes within it.


And even the writers desires,wants and statements are hardly proof of anything.

Grant Morrison made a statement that he was bringing "Son of the Demon" back into continuity once.

He made an official statement a few months [almost a year] before his "Batman & son" arc started.

We now know that he only brought in a few elements from "SOTD" and not the entire story.

So while Frank may have said that there's a connection,and he may be implying it threw the use of characters from the serries there has been no official word connecting the two universes.

Besides....there are a few character portrayal inconsistencies as well as a few cultural ones [very minor thou] as well to place any statement made by Miller about a over all connection into question.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I'm sorry but the appearance of "characters" from one book to an other is in "NO WAY" proof of a connection between universes.....specifically when we're talking about comic characters that dwell with in a multiverse that is also known to have a few pocket universes within it.


And even the writers desires,wants and statements are hardly proof of anything.

Grant Morrison made a statement that he was bringing "Son of the Demon" back into continuity once.

He made an official statement a few months [almost a year] before his "Batman & son" arc started.

We now know that he only brought in a few elements from "SOTD" and not the entire story.

So while Frank may have said that there's a connection,and he may be implying it threw the use of characters from the serries there has been no official word connecting the two universes.

Besides....there are a few character portrayal inconsistencies as well as a few cultural ones [very minor thou] as well to place any statement made by Miller about a over all connection into question.

Frank Miller has made is pretty clear within the story that it is connected, taking place between his Year One and his Dark Knight Returns. The reference to the Joker's poisoning of the water supply ties in All-Star Batman & Robin to the Year One continuity,

as does Jim Gordon's affair with Sarah Essen, whom he is clearly still in love with (he keeps calling her just to hear her voice), while still being married to Barbara, and references to Jim's past in Chicago (where he was moving from during in the beginning of Year One) and fighting Flass with a baseball bat. And Jim even mentioned that he reads to his son, James Jr. (born in Year One) every night and hopes that he will become an Detective one day (Jim claims that he is very observant),

and the inclusion of the Joker's henchwoman from Dark Knight Returns links the continuity of All-Star Batman to Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, as well.