The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

Grotesque appearance, penance for killing, obsession with teenagers.

But Hunter is talking about his look and he DOES look like someone who runs around killing teenagers.

Nolan should have tried harder.

But he ISN´T and you shouldn´t try to completely define a depiction of a character by a picture.

If I didnt know who Joker is in the comics I could also have a first impression that he´s some teen-slaughtering killer.
 
I think Joker can be both things to some extent, to me Brian Bolland´s Joker is a bit of both.

I suspect the ones who´re closed to any changes largely outnumber the ones who accept anything, but I also think that there´s a reasonable majority that unfortunately isn´t quite as loud and insistent as the extremists.

The Killing Joke wasn´t a different look from Nicholson, it had all the same features, it looks different because it´s ART, an artist can cheat and distort things in ways a filmmaker can´t.

I just don't find a Joker that looks monsterous works all that well in representation of the character

Well my findings would suggest that the opposed ones are in smaller quantities than those that will go with Nolan and yell "realism" at the top of their voices

He was different to Nicholson in stature and in shape and in the style of hair,he also had the trench on and was also character wise more sinister IMO
 
I just don't find a Joker that looks monsterous works all that well in representation of the character

Well my findings would suggest that the opposed ones are in smaller quantities than those that will go with Nolan and yell "realism" at the top of their voices

He was different to Nicholson in stature and in shape and in the style of hair,he also had the trench on and was also character wise more sinister IMO

I think people are highly exaggerating that notion of "monsterous", it´s not like he has fangs and is covered in fur, the creepiness is created mostly by makeup, as it is in the traditional look, and scars aren´t "monsterous" features necessarily.

Nolan is the exception on the boards, which to me is testimony of his work.

First of all, stature and shape are things a filmmaker can´t create, it depends on the actor, the style of hair difference is too minimal to count as a different look and he was more sinister because of the artist´s work, the artist can exaggerate expressions and things like that in ways the film director can´t. Plus the basic features aren´t different at all: white face, greenish fair, neat red lips.
 
I think people are highly exaggerating that notion of "monsterous", it´s not like he has fangs and is covered in fur, the creepiness is created mostly by makeup, as it is in the traditional look, and scars aren´t "monsterous" features necessarily.

Nolan is the exception on the boards, which to me is testimony of his work.

First of all, stature and shape are things a filmmaker can´t create, it depends on the actor, the style of hair difference is too minimal to count as a different look and he was more sinister because of the artist´s work, the artist can exaggerate expressions and things like that in ways the film director can´t.

I think having both sides of his face ripped open and the flesh exposed is pretty monstrous

I also think it's a testament to the state Schumacher left the franchise in that many will grasp onto any improvement

The film maker cast the right actor to match the shape and stature i referred to so part one of the look i hoped for was there

Now if he'd used his tools of lighting,music and cinematography the same as an artist uses his pencils and colourist he could have used the look and made the creepy Joker instead of going the horror route IMO
 
I think having both sides of his face ripped open and the flesh exposed is pretty monstrous

I also think it's a testament to the state Schumacher left the franchise in that many will grasp onto any improvement

The film maker cast the right actor to match the shape and stature i referred to so part one of the look i hoped for was there

Now if he'd used his tools of lighting,music and cinematography the same as an artist uses his pencils and colourist he could have used the look and made the creepy Joker instead of going the horror route IMO

So if that happens to somebody you call that person a monster? Monsters in the sense you mean are supernatural creatures or the result of cientific experiments, having scars and creepy makeup don´t make a monster.

Nolan made a critically and commercially successful movie, he´s gone beyond "fanboy relief".

You know casting a role is far more complex than that.

That was done to some extent in 89, and Joker still doesn´t look like Bolland´s version. As much as fans hate to admit it, some things from the comic book page don´t translate to film.
 
So if that happens to somebody you call that person a monster? Monsters in the sense you mean are supernatural creatures or the result of cientific experiments, having scars and creepy makeup don´t make a monster.

Nolan made a critically and commercially successful movie, he´s gone beyond "fanboy relief".

You know casting a role is far more complex than that.

That was done to some extent in 89, and Joker still doesn´t look like Bolland´s version. As much as fans hate to admit it, some things from the comic book page don´t translate to film.

I said monstrous not monster,as in repulsive and repugnant which is what he looks like with half his face ripped and that smattered lipstick all over

So did Singer and that hasn't stopped him being hated,the fact is that Nolan did a good job and rescued the franchise to a level that some will trust him in any choice he makes because they know how bad it can get.


I never said it wasn't but we are talking aesthetics here in which Ledger fit the bill of what i hoped for

Well some things don't but in the right hands most things do and Joker i think is easily translated
 
I said monstrous not monster,as in repulsive and repugnant which is what he looks like with half his face ripped and that smattered lipstick all over

So did Singer and that hasn't stopped him being hated,the fact is that Nolan did a good job and rescued the franchise to a level that some will trust him in any choice he makes because they know how bad it can get.


I never said it wasn't but we are talking aesthetics here in which Ledger fit the bill of what i hoped for

Well some things don't but in the right hands most things do and Joker i think is easily translated


I think a guy with permanent white skin, psychotic eyes and maniacal smile looks pretty repulsive, look, if Joker looked like, campy, for instance, I´d be the first to protest, I just don´t see how this is so opposite to the character as you people seem to imply. Yes, scars are a deformity, and so are permanent white skin/bright red lips. This feels more and more like a potato/tomato argument to me.

There was a number of negative reactions to different concepts Nolan used, like The Tumbler, another rubber suit for Batman, Crane being played by a good-looking guy, now this, so I really don´t feel this love is all that inconditional.

But he´ll still have the same basic look, which wasn´t the idea here. I personally think it´s understandable that they don´t want to repeat Nicholson, and Bolland´s look, like Nicholson, is simply a small variation of the traditional look. It´s not a middle ground.
 
I think a guy with permanent white skin, psychotic eyes and maniacal smile looks pretty repulsive, look, if Joker looked like, campy, for instance, I´d be the first to protest, I just don´t see how this is so opposite to the character as you people seem to imply. Yes, scars are a deformity, and so are permanent white skin/bright red lips. This feels more and more like a potato/tomato argument to me.

There was a number of negative reactions to different concepts Nolan used, like The Tumbler, another rubber suit for Batman, Crane being played by a good-looking guy, now this, so I really don´t feel this love is all that inconditional.

But he´ll still have the same basic look, which wasn´t the idea here. I personally think it´s understandable that they don´t want to repeat Nicholson, and Bolland´s look, like Nicholson, is simply a small variation of the traditional look. It´s not a middle ground.

But Joker has an element of camp to him,it comes with the theatricality of the character,to me it's not so much opposite it's just horrible execution of the character visually IMO

Those were pre movie issues,afterwards there was more "INWT" sigs than i care to remember and that was b/c while some may have had issue with some choices the fact was it was a 100% improvement over the prior Batman movie and thus has garnered him a "Can do no wrong" pass in many eyes on this board.

Well you may think it's understandable and thats fine with me but personally i go back to what i said earlier "If it ain't broke don't fix it" and to me the Joker wasn't broken
 
I think a guy with permanent white skin, psychotic eyes and maniacal smile looks pretty repulsive, look, if Joker looked like, campy, for instance, I´d be the first to protest, I just don´t see how this is so opposite to the character as you people seem to imply. Yes, scars are a deformity, and so are permanent white skin/bright red lips. This feels more and more like a potato/tomato argument to me.

No, there is a difference. White skin, green hair and red lips are not in the same as facial scars, they elicit different effects. White skin and green hair are striking, while huge facial scars evoke disgust. We're talking not potato/tomato but apples/oranges.

But he´ll still have the same basic look, which wasn´t the idea here. I personally think it´s understandable that they don´t want to repeat Nicholson, and Bolland´s look, like Nicholson, is simply a small variation of the traditional look. It´s not a middle ground.

The traditional is iconic. The Joke is spectacle, done purely for effect and lacks substance. It's nothing but bloody cotton candy.
 
This thread makes me wonder whatever happened to Herr Logan. :confused:
 
I've posted several times using a number of variations on realism (practical, grounded, reasoned) to discuss the tone and feel of Nolan's style, and by extension this character portrayal. I'm trying to not use "realism" anymore as it seems to have become a lightning rod.

All my previous thoughts aside, I would accept the usual Joker, something like 89, with a chemical smile, in Nolan's universe. I imagine it would seem out of place to me but maybe not. I could accept that physical manifestation of Joker because of his dominance in the various comics. I admit that I probably wouldn't find it so out of place that it could ruin the film. Probably still make a really good film. Imagining both scenarios though I prefer something innovative. Thats not out of convenience because we have gotten something new. Its because I think the risk to reward ratio is way higher with doing something new. I'm not sure if the idea of "chickening out" is someone's legit feeling or if someone just needed another straw to prop up a dispute, but I would have to strongly disagree. While the changes and possibly purposeful avoidance of the chemical smile from 89 (taken from comics) smacks of ego, it is also a huge risk. Big brass ones. Thats what this Joker takes. It could fall completely flat. It could be screamed and fought about for the next thirty years of comic adaptations. The "great botched batman bomb of 2008" they'd call it. But, if it doesn't fall... if opening weekend is huge... if the following weekend barely drops off... if the critics are positive... if the comic industry applauds it... if several artists hit the stands that twist Joker just a bit more than usual in the months following the film... I think thats amazing. The possibility of the source being inspired by the adaptation? That is the kind of idea that makes a director reach. It doesn't need to go that far, and it probably wont, to be a success. But why not aim as high as one can imagine? I think reaching for an adaptation so different, so unique, so strong that it could potentially return to the source with new looks at an old character is a worthwhile risk and anything but chicken.
 
One of the things that sometimes annoys me with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend to obssess with accuracy to details. They want things to be EXACTLY like the comics, even given that it´s impossible to begin with. That´s especially true to characters´ looks, and sometimes even relatively small changes - am I the only one who sees that the Superman Returns suit is still 90% an accurate to comics Superman suit? - can cause quite a stir. That comes with some distortions of priorities, such as people giving more value to details accuracy than the look giving you the right tone and feel of the character.

Let´s see a look that can be considered pretty "accurate". In theory, Cesar Romero´s Joker is not only pretty accurate to the comics of his period, but even close to the modern comics look: the bright red lips are there, the chalk-white skin, the green hair, it could even be said it´s closer than Jack Nicholson´s look - hey, it has no perma-smile! But could a modern interpretation of Joker look just like Romero and still work? No. Because in spirte of those details, what Romero´s Joker gives you is a campy clown, which of course is what Joker was back in the day, but is totally inconsistent with the psychotic Joker of Bill Finger and Bob Kane, Dennis O´Neil and Neal Adams, Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers, Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, etc.

We don´t even need to go that far: In theory, Two-Face´s makeup in Batman Forever is accurate. Yeah, if you look you can even find pinkish versions of the acid-burned half in comics. What was the real problem with Two-Face? He was portrayed as a cackling, jumpy, campy villain instead of the dark and tragic character from the comics.

Now, I´m sure if there was Internet back in 89, a lot of fans would have made tons of noise against Batman wearing black instead of blue and gray: he had been wearing light blue and gray suit for decades in comics, even in the darker O´Neil/Englehart ones - and I´m not even gonna get into the rubber armor thing or the absence of briefs, etc. If you wanna really nitpick it, even Joker´s look wasn´t 100% right. Nicholson was chubby while comics Joker is notoriously skinny, not to mention the perennial smile. Accurate it wasn´t. But in the end of the day, it worked, why? Cuz the tone and feel were right. Batman is supposed to look dark, creepy, stealthy, mysterious. And Joker, while still with a good deal of camp in him, was also the homicidal maniac from comics. It´s the purpose of the look, not the details.

People´s initial reaction to the new Joker isn´t too different from what it´d have been, there was Internet in 89, to Batman´s black suit - hey, in theory it´s a more radical change than anything done to Superman´s suit in SR! And it´s also not too different from what the recent reaction was to, say, The Tumbler in Batman Begins, not the traditional sports car with fins from most comics incarnations.

And that´s why I´m not shaken by all those negative comments against Joker´s look. The look may not be "comics-accurate" - or it is, you just have to look at the right comics -, but the tone is right. The Joker I love from comics looks like a creepy psychotic distortion of a clown´s look, and that´s the concept here as well, details aside. Okay, it´d have probably helped if he was smiling in the picture, but I remember the first pics we saw of The Tumbler and Batman´s suit in BB didn´t exactly do them justice either. The clever, anarchic and unusual way that the image was revealed to us, however, was brilliantly Joker-like. They know the character. There will be plenty of time for people to see that there´s much more to The Joker than clean white makeup and neat red lips, and Nolan and his people know it.

I agree completely. My only remaining complaint is that it wasn't necessary.
 
I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that we will blindly accept anything, and that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different.
 
I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that we will blindly accept anything, and that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different.
Astonishing. A non-extremist.
 
One of the things that sometimes annoys me with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend to obssess with accuracy to details...
How many times are we going to get the anti-fanboy rant? Some details are important to me, other's I couldn't give a damn about, but that I do care about some doesn't make them less important.
 
I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that we will blindly accept anything, and that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different.
I agree with this Keyser,ive tried in all my posts to make it clear i hold no issue with a fan who likes the design,to do so would be hypocritical on my part given how i like the new TF designs.

I'm sure there are many like you that like both and i hate the term "true fan" we are all fans,some just have varying degrees of acceptance to alternate takes on characters and it can vary from character to character,franchise to franchise.
 
I don't see what the obsesive attitude is on here, where you have to "choose a side". Anyone who likes Nolan's version of The Joker must hate how he looks in the comics. And any "true fan" of The Joker and his look in the comics is obligated to hate this new interpretation.

Are we not allowed to like both?

To counter regwec's past claims that we will blindly accept anything, and that we'd be equally happy with a comics-accurate depiction....yes, I would. I love how The Joker looks in the comics. If we'd got a Joker that looks like he did in "The Killing Joke", yes, I'd have been happy.

But at the same time, I also like the movie version of The Joker. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm "spitting on" the comics, as somebody said earlier, or that I suddenly hate all interpretations. It just means...gasp!...what I say it means. That I like the new look. It doesn't have to be "right" or "wrong". It's just different.

Outstanding Keyser, simply outstanding post!

I wanted to say something earlier, but decided to let it go, because I don't want people here to get riled up. IMO it is silly to have these sanctuary threads like choosing sides when people can and should be talking about them together, respectfully of course toward each-other.

If anyone here has ever watched Babylon 5 the series, it reminds me of an episode, where the Drazi each choose a color at random, either green or purple, and then fight until one side wins. It's just a ritual for them, and has no real purpose.

People get so wrapped up in the vitriol and semantics of the arguement that they forget why they are arguing in the first place. It's like Congress.
 
Outstanding Keyser, simply outstanding post!

I wanted to say something earlier, but decided to let it go, because I don't want people here to get riled up. IMO it is silly to have these sanctuary threads like choosing sides when people can and should be talking about them together, respectfully of course toward each-other.

If anyone here has ever watched Babylon 5 the series, it reminds me of an episode, where the Drazi each choose a color at random, either green or purple, and then fight until one side wins. It's just a ritual for them, and has no real purpose.

People get so wrapped up in the vitriol and semantics of the arguement that they forget why they are arguing in the first place. It's like Congress.

The problem is that people on this board, almost more than anywhere else, can't be that patient, fair or accepting. I'm trying to grow the Hell up and accept others' opinions better than I have in the past, and I was always still more sensible than most of the people here. I think that says it all.
 
The problem is that people on this board, almost more than anywhere else, can't be that patient, fair or accepting. I'm trying to grow the Hell up and accept others' opinions better than I have in the past, and I was always still more sensible than most of the people here. I think that says it all.


Well, I've been a forum admin and founder of a political forum and website, imagine the amount of patience I have to maintain. :cwink: After dealing with stuff there, coming here for me is like a breath of fresh air. :woot:
 
Well, I've been a forum admin and founder of a political forum and website, imagine the amount of patience I have to maintain. :cwink: After dealing with stuff there, coming here for me is like a breath of fresh air. :woot:

Boy, I can imagine.

There are three things that should never be discussed in public; Religion, Politics, and the Tim Burton Batman franchise. It will only lead to pain to mention one of the three.
 
Also, in the recent comics, the look is not too far off:

Joker_new_look.jpg



However, what makes the Joker memorable is not just his looks but more importantly his actions. I have to see the actor act the Joker to see if he does live up to the idea. You cannot get that with a screen shot.

I think what is really going on is a big echo effect in geekdom for Spider-Man 3 having all the trappings of a good movie and turned to be not good even to casual eyes, money earned aside.

So now no fanboy thing is left sacred and we are burning witches left and right. :dry:
 
How many times are we going to get the anti-fanboy rant? Some details are important to me, other's I couldn't give a damn about, but that I do care about some doesn't make them less important.

A freaking men. UF, you've been here longer than 90% of the posters here...you should know that,whether you like it or not, fanboys will whine and complain about things. Making anti fanboy threads will not quell the problem in the slightest.
 
It's kinda fun to watch the predictable anti-fanboy speeches though.

This one's especially dangerous because the key points brought up about begins' triumph as a batman film were not its tone or feel, but its attention to "getting batman right" IE, having joe chill kill the parents, having batman come together piece by piece but first show off his pecks, then be a play boy, then gordon have a real character. If batman begins functions as anything beyond a pretty good movie, it's a checklist of fanboy complaints from the last batman franchise of things they wanted to see.

Now it's the fanboy's fault that they're displeased with something that seems to betray that juicy comic accuracy from the last film? Interesting changes in philosophy, I must say.
 

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