Why no love for the Kingpin?

[Elijya]

Personally I think that the Kingpin is the most realistic portrayal of what organised crime is like in comics. (as is Tombstone). About the only thing I didn't like about "Daredevil:The Movie" was their casting of African American Micahel Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin( when everybody and his brother KNOWS that he's white; the notroiously racist Mob bosses in New York -or any other big US city would never tolerate a "melanzana" ( eggplant in Italian- derogatory name for blacks) ammassing so much power as to threaten them)

Terry

 

[Elijya]

Lex Luthor is the single most overrated villian in the history of villians. King pin is top 5 GOAT

Kingpin is up there with the immortal legends like joker, doc ock, penguin rogue's of that caliber.

what is GOAT?

Penguin is arguably one of Batman's WORST rogues - although he's still a good vilalin, he's just in the company of MUCH more fascinating villains like Two-Face or Freeze. Heck, I actually think the Ventriloquist is a better villain than the Penguin (and I mean more interesting vilalin, Penguin has obviously met with greater sucess in his endevors)

Doc Ock has never really made much sense. WHY is he a criminal again? He was a scientist, he had the arms, there was an explosion, and...what? Why did he become a criminal? The movie at least said the arms drove him crazy

 

[The Joker]

Doc Ock has never really made much sense. WHY is he a criminal again? He was a scientist, he had the arms, there was an explosion, and...what? Why did he become a criminal? The movie at least said the arms drove him crazy

Well if you read Spider-Man Unlimited #3 or Doctor Octopus Year One, you'll see that Octavius was bullied as a child for being a science geek with glasses, he had no friends, was unpopular with girls, was verbally abused by his father and coddled by an overbearing mother, basically the only love in his life was science.

His mother sabatoged the only relationship he ever had with a woman. When he quickly established himself as a genius in the field of nuclear research and his fame grew, he became more arrogant, egotistical and condescending to his colleagues. He wanted to prove he was the master of radiation. This was shown in ASM#3 when he said "With my artificial arms I can manipulate chemicals which are far too dangerous to touch.Though others fear radiation, I alone am able to make it my servant".

Though he was a power hungry and particularly unpleasant man, he was not a criminal. The accident which bonded the arms to his body gave him mental control of them, gave him the final push to overcome his criminal inhibitions and break the law. Basically that ruthless nature he had was unleashed, because he had the power to do what he wanted. When he realized he could mentally control the arms, he thought of himself of the supreme being on earth.
Dr. Octopus from the comics is one of the most realistic villains you'll ever find in superhero comics, because he's an extremely common type of criminal that exists in the real world. The biggest difference between him and what he's based on-- not what Stan Lee specifically based him on, since he didn't think it through all the way (even though he wrote him extremely well, he wasn't big on origins) what people who filled in the blanks of his history in subsequent years did-- is that he was an ingenious respected scientist instead of a very smart but wholely average civilian that couldn't hold a job. Then again, Otto Octavius doesn't fit the basic profile of a serial killer; he was hurt in an accident and all at once lost his inhibitions about hurting people, which is a much broader profile. That analysis does not include the fact that was a superpowered cyborg. The fact that he was turned into a freakish cyborg in the first place is a substitute for a car accident or nasty fall or other physical trauma for a person in real life who receives any amount of brain trauma and then simply becomes a violent version of what they already were. The equipment that was bonded to him is a substitute for any real-life weapon such a person would use to act out their now-unrestrained desires to hurt others.

Octavius is what the Marvel writers call the Peter Parker gone bad. Both Peter and Octavius were bullied as kids,both were science geeks,both had no friends and were unpopular with girls, both lost a parent at a young age, and both acquired amazing powers in a lab accident. But Peter chose to use his power responsibly and for good, while Octavius shows no responsibility and uses his power for his own selfish gain.

And that's the parallel between them. Peter Parker is the geek gone super hero, while Otto Octavius is the geek turned super villain. And that angle was particularly focused on in Doctor Octopus Year One.

 

[Elijya]

Octavius is what the Marvel writers call the Peter Parker gone bad. Both Peter and Octavius were bullied as kids,both were science geeks,both had no friends and were unpopular with girls, both lost a parent at a young age, and both acquired amazing powers in a lab accident. But Peter chose to use his power responsibly and for good, while Octavius shows no responsibility and uses his power for his own selfish gain.

And that's the parallel between them. Peter Parker is the geek gone super hero, while Otto Octavius is the geek turned super villain. And that angle was particularly focused on in Doctor Octopus Year One.

nicely done, that's some depth right there

unfortunately, that's an angle that's RARELY been focused on in their decades of fighting. And the Spider-Man 2 film captured nothing of this

 

[The Joker]

nicely done, that's some depth right there

unfortunately, that's an angle that's RARELY been focused on in their decades of fighting. And the Spider-Man 2 film captured nothing of this

Yeah it wasn't really brought into focus until the early 90's, as that's when we first saw into Octavius' life pre-accident in Spider-Man Unlimited #3. Much like the Joker in the Killing Joke.His background was a mystery for years.

Spider-Man 2 went with the student/mentor angle.Octavius was Peter's scientific idol.Which really is more suited to Curt Connors.Same as the good scientist with the wife angle they used.

 

[Ben Urich]

Spider-Man 2 went with the student/mentor angle.Octavius was Peter's scientific idol.Which really is more suited to Curt Connors.Same as the good scientist with the wife angle they used.

What is it with Peter's crazy scientist mentors?
Osbourne, Octavius, Conners...

 

[Ben Urich]

Personally I think that the Kingpin is the most realistic portrayal of what organised crime is like in comics. (as is Tombstone). About the only thing I didn't like about "Daredevil:The Movie" was their casting of African American Micahel Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin( when everybody and his brother KNOWS that he's white; the notroiously racist Mob bosses in New York -or any other big US city would never tolerate a "melanzana" ( eggplant in Italian- derogatory name for blacks) ammassing so much power as to threaten them)

Terry

The race didn't bother me at all; what bothered me is that he didn't actually do anything but smile like an idiot.
The whole character was totally written wrong.

 

[Elijya]

yeah, that role was written very poorly

 

[Ben Urich]

yeah, that role was written very poorly

The whole movie was written poorly. The only saving grace was when Affleck was playing Matt (he did well there, IMO) and whenever Jon Favreau did anything ("She sounds like a Mexican appetizer." )
The line "See the light at the end of the tunnel? That's not heaven; that's the C train!" is an affront to people with good taste.

 

[Jplaya2023]

what is GOAT?

Penguin is arguably one of Batman's WORST rogues - although he's still a good vilalin, he's just in the company of MUCH more fascinating villains like Two-Face or Freeze. Heck, I actually think the Ventriloquist is a better villain than the Penguin (and I mean more interesting vilalin, Penguin has obviously met with greater sucess in his endevors)

Doc Ock has never really made much sense. WHY is he a criminal again? He was a scientist, he had the arms, there was an explosion, and...what? Why did he become a criminal? The movie at least said the arms drove him crazy

GOAT = Greatest Of All Time

 

[The PhantaZm]

But the fact is that that many villains are only as good as the people who write them. Bullseye was lame until Miller made him a psychopath assassin in the 1980s, Purple Man was lame until Bendis transformed him into an insane rapist in Alias. Even really lame villains like Catman have become cool in the hands of the right writer. I think a lot of DD's second stringer villains have potenial to become ever dangerous villains, Purple Man (he has already been revamped, just use him in DD again), Mr. Hyde (he is supposed to be evil incarinate, write him as a cunning and bloodthristy monster), Typhoid Mary (already used well by Bendis, perhaps explore her past a bit) and Bushwacker (play up his religious fundamentalism, make him DD's spirtual antithesis.)

Again there are villains who maybe a bit silly for the post Miller DD world like Stilt-Man, Matador and Leap Frog, but their reformed and I think they shouldn't become villains again unless someone has a damn good reason for it. Anyway I think there is room for other good villains in DD lore besides Bullseye and Kingpin and perhaps those two should be given a rest, their a bit overexposed at the moment.

When DD runs out of villains he can always borrow Spider-man's.

They should ease off bullseye but Kingpin will always in some form or another be Daredevil's biggest problem. Most of DD's problems are either directly or indirectly caused by kingpin and 99% of DD's rogues gallery work for the kingpin. Their world's practically revolve around each other. There really isn't a more symbiotic hero/villain relationship in comicbook lore. Those two live to torture each other.

 

[The PhantaZm]

Personally I think that the Kingpin is the most realistic portrayal of what organised crime is like in comics. (as is Tombstone). About the only thing I didn't like about "Daredevil:The Movie" was their casting of African American Micahel Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin( when everybody and his brother KNOWS that he's white; the notroiously racist Mob bosses in New York -or any other big US city would never tolerate a "melanzana" ( eggplant in Italian- derogatory name for blacks) ammassing so much power as to threaten them)

Terry

The Race wasn't the problem, they just screwed the character up. MCD did to Kingpin what Tommy Lee jones did to Two-Face, (though not nearly as bad).

And the Kingpin didn't exactly rise through the ranks of the mob. He fought his way to the top with fear and intimidation. Beating the crap out of people, threatening their kids. Nobody "allowed" him to do anything he just took the position.

 

[Ben Urich]

The Race wasn't the problem, they just screwed the character up. MCD did to Kingpin what Tommy Lee jones did to Two-Face, (though not nearly as bad).

To be fair, the role of Two Face was written horribly as well. Remember that one scene where he keeps flipping his coin, hoping for the scarred side to come up? Two Face would never do that.
In bad comic book movies, I tend to blame the screenwriters before the actors, although they certainly aren't without blame.

 

[The PhantaZm]

To be fair, the role of Two Face was written horribly as well. Remember that one scene where he keeps flipping his coin, hoping for the scarred side to come up? Two Face would never do that.
In bad comic book movies, I tend to blame the screenwriters before the actors, although they certainly aren't without blame.

The butchering of Kingpin in Daredevil could be chocked up to bad writing but Two Face in batman forever suffered from pretty bad writing but mostly really bad acting. Tommy Lee's jones acting was so over the top it made Jim Carrey's performance look like an excercise in restraint. How do you chew more scenery than Jim Carrey?? Hopefully the new Batman franchise gets two-face right, hes IMO the second best bat-villain ever.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The butchering of Kingpin in Daredevil could be chocked up to bad writing but Two Face in batman forever suffered from pretty bad writing but mostly really bad acting. Tommy Lee's jones acting was so over the top it made Jim Carrey's performance look like an excercise in restraint. How do you chew more scenery than Jim Carrey?? Hopefully the new Batman franchise gets two-face right, hes IMO the second best bat-villain ever.

Actually it seems Nolan, (Myself), DC and the people currently on the bat books feel he is the BEST Bat villain, even saying those exact words in the last issue of Batman.

Two Face: Two Face...one of Batman's GREATEST foes.

Harvey: 'One of? We were the BEST.

Harvey (Con't): WHO was better? The Clown? The Cat? The Bird? NO!

Two Face: That's right Harvey we WERE the best there was.

It's pretty clear with DC new Bat arc "Face the Face" and making Joker a "small but important character" while making Harvey much more front and center, that Harvey is primed by both as the greatest Bat villian.

 

[The PhantaZm]

Actually it seems Nolan, (Myself), DC and the people currently on the bat books feel he is the BEST Bat villain, even saying those exact words in the last issue of Batman.

Two Face: Two Face...one of Batman's GREATEST foes.

Harvey: 'One of? We were the BEST.

Harvey (Con't): WHO was better? The Clown? The Cat? The Bird? NO!

Two Face: That's right Harvey we WERE the best there was.

It's pretty clear with DC new Bat arc "Face the Face" and making Joker a "small but important character" while making Harvey much more front and center, that Harvey is primed by both as the greatest Bat villian.

I don't know if I'd say he's better than the joker but its good to see him finally getting some recognition. He's always seemed so underused to me.

 

[Elijya]

ya know.... this has just been a really awesome thread

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't know if I'd say he's better than the joker but its good to see him finally getting some recognition. He's always seemed so underused to me.

I don't know that he is [better than the Joker]....but he has potential to be.

 

[Ben Urich]

I think what might elevate Two Face over the Joker is that there are at least some parallels you can draw between him and Batman. Joker is cool and psychotic and fun, but he's also random as all Hell. Two Face is, obviously, Batman's greatest parallel because of the duality inheirent in both of their natures.

 

[The Overlord]

When DD runs out of villains he can always borrow Spider-man's.

They should ease off bullseye but Kingpin will always in some form or another be Daredevil's biggest problem. Most of DD's problems are either directly or indirectly caused by kingpin and 99% of DD's rogues gallery work for the kingpin. Their world's practically revolve around each other. There really isn't a more symbiotic hero/villain relationship in comicbook lore. Those two live to torture each other.

I am sick of DD borrowing Spider-Man's villains, enough already, they should focus on his own rogues, try to develop villains in DD's universe, rather than just steal rogues from Spidey. That worked well once, Kingpin worked better as a DD villain then a Spidey villain, that's it, Electro has a DD villian for a while before going back to the Spider universe where he belonged and I thought it was a real shame that Mysterio I died outside the Spider-Man universe.

Personally I think they should develop some DD villains that are not connected to Kingpin, give DD a variety of foes. At this point Mr. Fear III has a grudge against both DD and Fisk, so it is unlikely that he would work for Fisk, he has a personal grudge DD that has nothing to do with Fisk. Mr. Hyde is likely far too insane and uncontrollable to be Fisk's pay roll. Purple man could work for Fisk, if Fisk can get past his mind control powers and literally twisting his arm, because PM doesn't need money with his mind control powers and is more happy pursuing his own sick desires rather than serving another. The Owl should be a rival for the Kingpin rather than minion.

Even some of the merc type villains should persue their own agendas once and a while. Bullseye has sometimes launched campaigns against DD on his own, without working for Fisk. Likewise Typhoid mary deserves some arcs where she is pursuing her own insane agenda rather than just serving Fisk (show more of past, let her to get revenge on those who have wronged her, give her own arc seperate from Fisk).

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I think what might elevate Two Face over the Joker is that there are at least some parallels you can draw between him and Batman. Joker is cool and psychotic and fun, but he's also random as all Hell. Two Face is, obviously, Batman's greatest parallel because of the duality inheirent in both of their natures.

I always thought of Two Face is what Batman would have become without his parents death. You see even with his parents death Batman still would have had to have had a natural drive and natural anger that he could direct the way he did. I always felt like without Joe Chill killing his parents he would have built up inside him the need to lash out with no purpose of direction, and would have become like Two Face, where he had a very violent personality. I also felt like Two Face was more of a physical match for Batman, and they have a history together before his change.