Why no love for the Kingpin?

[jaydawg]

Spider-Mans villains, again, are thugs. Hey, alot of them got some really cool powers. But can you tell me what makes, say, Electro tick? Is there anything that makes the Rhino a fascinating character to read about, if he's not smashing things up? Can you tell me in what way Sandman is any different from Hydroman, aside from their powers? Are any of these guys really much more than blue collar criminals, always either for hire or just out to steal? They remind me of the cliche vaudeville villains with the black and white stripped shirts and masks. "Yup, just robbing this bank, all in a days work"

Electro has a crazy amount of depth that most writers gloss over. Read "Light the Night." Rhino's character went through some shaping in an early Tangled Web arc where he gained a vast amount of intellegence. Even Sandman became more than a thug when he became a hero and Avenger.

To a degree I agree with you, but theres a whole lot of more to these characters than most give them credit for.

 

[chamber-music]

Kingpin is a great villain. I remember when he got the punisher put in prison with all his enemies he didn't kill and had some of micro's fingers cut off.

Batman and the Flash both have awesome rogues, Superman on the other hand has about four ok rogues. About two of which actually pose a threat to him.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

As to the Rogue's Gallery thing, I think that the Avengers on a whole have the best collection, but if you want strictly single characters then yeah I'd say Batman's and Spiderman's. DD's characters have alot of depth but not much exposure, if you saw one of them outside it's title then you'd probably come up clueless. So in effect, the exposure that leads to popularity plays an important role in how 'great' a villan is. Can't be in the Top 10 if half the readers never heard of you.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Back in the day, Kingpin was definitely one of the top villians in Marvel comics. But, since the 90's, they've dragged his character down so much, that he's just another mob boss nowadays. I loved his appearances in Spider-Man and Daredevil in the 70's and 80's, and they still are some of my favorite comics to read. You just knew back then that if Kingpin was in those comics, you should pick them up and expect a good read.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

Thankfully, he's back to that peak over in USM. Manipulating, arranging murders, media darling, and getting high enders like Elektra and Silver Sable to do is work for him.

New classic.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Batman is really the only superhero with a solid rogues gallery. Who else has that many great villains? Definitely not Superman or Spidey. All a hero needs is one or two really great villains. Daredevil has that - Kingpin and Bullseye. (Typhoid Mary isn't that bad either.)
.

X-Men as a team has a great Rogue's gallery (Magneto, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse and Horsemen, Sauron, Dark Phoenix). Superman's is pretty good too (Lex Luthor, Mongul, Darkseid, Metallo, Parasite, Bizarro). Spider-Man's between HobGoblin, Green Goblin, Venom, Doc Ock, and Kingpin are really great. Flash has a great gallery as well (perhaps the best).

 

[Elijya]

well you're right about Britney, but I've never thought HP Sauce is right with bacon sarnies, but its only my opinion, many others will tell you its an ideal pairing. Its the same thing here, I think how 'good' a rogues gallery is will depend on the criteria you use to evaluate it. By your criteria they aren't by mine they are.

well you have lower standards

 

[Ben Urich]

I think Supes' rogues are pretty weak apart from Luthor, Darkseid, Bizarro and Mxy (whom Greg Rucka worked wonders on in his Adventures of Superman run)

 

[Elijya]

And that is why, ladies and gentlemen, I ****ing hate reading Spider-Man comics.


Dude.
This is like the first time we've ever disagreed on anything.

lemme expand: What makes a Lex a good villain?

One thing that works really quite well is he is a man of incredible power, figuratively speaking, while Superman possess incredible powers LITERALLY speaking. Lex's mind is strong where Superman's body is strong. That's where their dichotomy comes into play, that's what works.

Lex is a business man, he's a pro, he's calm, he's cool, he's smart. So why is he one minute in a board meeting, and in the next in a fruity looking set of armor? That armor drives me up the wall, it is so ugly. You'd think he would design something that is more reflective of his style when he's not wearing it: efficiant, professional, direct to the point. Not lime green and purple.

What really doesn't work for me are the motivations. Why is Luthor a criminal? several explanations have been suggested over the years, some of them pretty clever, but none of them are convincing. To me, anyway. (one of his motivations was that Superboy was the reason he lost his hair ). In the end, there's really no believable reason why a billionaire CEO would be a supervillain in his spare time. Norman Osborne has the excuse of being crazy, Dr. Doom has a massive ego. Lex may have a little bit of crazy and some ego, but if anyone is going to suceed in business, especially as much as he has, they should have an innate sense of when to hold them and when to fold them, and when to recognize a bad investment and let it go. And that means, if Superman messes up your cabbage patch too many times, the SMART thing to do (and Lex is smart, right?) is to stay out of his way, to find a way around him. There is no profit in revenge, there is nothing to be gained. Lex is not Doom, they're completely different.

I don't HATE Luthor, I think he's ok. I just think he's overrated. And I also think part of the reason he always makes the "top villain" lists is simply because he fights Superman. If Lex Luthor was the arch enemy of, say, the New Warriors... would anyone care?

 

[The PhantaZm]

X-Men as a team has a great Rogue's gallery (Magneto, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse and Horsemen, Sauron, Dark Phoenix).

Definitely agree with that one. Plus the X-men have the sentinels which are always great.

Superman's is pretty good too (Lex Luthor, Mongul, Darkseid, Metallo, Parasite, Bizarro) Spider-Man's between HobGoblin, Green Goblin, Venom, Doc Ock, and Kingpin are really great. Flash has a great gallery as well (perhaps the best).

Don't know much about flash but his rogues gallery couldn't be better than batmans.

Great Villains: Joker, Two Face, Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul, Mr. Freeze, The Riddler, Bane, Scarecrow, Catwoman, Clayface, Madhatter, etc.

Even the B-listers are pretty good! (Mr. Zsaz, Poison Ivy, Croc, The Ventriloquist, etc).

 

[The PhantaZm]

And I also think part of the reason he always makes the "top villain" lists is simply because he fights Superman. If Lex Luthor was the arch enemy of, say, the New Warriors... would anyone care?

So true. Hes only great by association.

I don't think heros and villains should be judged in that way. Each should be judged on their own merits as a character. You don't need a great rogues gallery to be a great character. Case in point: The Punisher.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Definitely agree with that one. Plus the X-men have the sentinels which are always great.




Don't know much about flash but his rogues gallery couldn't be better than batmans.
.

Flash is considered by most to have the best rogue's gallery.

Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, Captain Boomerang, Reverse Flash (Zoom), Trickster...those are the main ones, and actually all quiet good characters.

 

[Ben Urich]

One thing that works really quite well is he is a man of incredible power, figuratively speaking, while Superman possess incredible powers LITERALLY speaking. Lex's mind is strong where Superman's body is strong. That's where their dichotomy comes into play, that's what works.

With you so far.

Lex is a business man, he's a pro, he's calm, he's cool, he's smart. So why is he one minute in a board meeting, and in the next in a fruity looking set of armor? That armor drives me up the wall, it is so ugly. You'd think he would design something that is more reflective of his style when he's not wearing it: efficiant, professional, direct to the point. Not lime green and purple.

Still with you. I don't like his techie looking suit, either. I like that in the new Up Up and Away crossover he's done everything (I think) in a business suit...

What really doesn't work for me are the motivations. Why is Luthor a criminal? several explanations have been suggested over the years, some of them pretty clever, but none of them are convincing.

I think Jeph Loeb had a pretty good handle on Luthor's motivations when he wrote Superman For All Seasons. Here's a man who has come from literally nothing, a poor childhood where he was abused (and probably picked up some pathos), and now he's the most successful man in the world. He can do nearly everything. His beef is, I think, that all Superman has to do is exist and it makes him the secondmost impressive man in the world.
Okay, I know it's not as great as the pathos that drives Two Face (arguably the best in comics), but it works well enough for me. Superman stole his thunder.
I also understand that the Alex Ross Justice maxiseries is exploring Lex as a secular humanist, where it's hard to tell if he's really evil or not. Brian Azzarello's (brilliant) Lex Luthor: Man of Steel mini also explored similar themes. It's become popular in recent years, probably because today's writers are, like you, dissatisfied with the notion that Lex is evil solely because Superboy blew his beautiful red hair off.

Lex may have a little bit of crazy and some ego, but if anyone is going to suceed in business, especially as much as he has, they should have an innate sense of when to hold them and when to fold them, and when to recognize a bad investment and let it go. And that means, if Superman messes up your cabbage patch too many times, the SMART thing to do (and Lex is smart, right?) is to stay out of his way, to find a way around him. There is no profit in revenge, there is nothing to be gained. Lex is not Doom, they're completely different.

I think now Lex is operating on a grander scale. He realizes that not even he, with his incredible intellect and gazillion-dollar battlesuit, can stop Superman. Now he works more behind the scenes... although, as the last issue of Up, Up and Away illustrated, he's still ballsy (stupid?) enough to go mano a mano with Superman (with the help of something spoilerish, so I won't post it.

And I also think part of the reason he always makes the "top villain" lists is simply because he fights Superman.

This is probably true; their rivalry is iconic.

If Lex Luthor was the arch enemy of, say, the New Warriors... would anyone care?

I'd argue that that's true of most rogues. I wouldn't give two flips about the Joker if he was to fight, say, Daredevil.

I don't HATE Luthor, I think he's ok. I just think he's overrated.

Fair enough

 

[Ben Urich]

Flash is considered by most to have the best rogue's gallery.

Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, Captain Boomerang, Reverse Flash (Zoom), Trickster...those are the main ones, and actually all quiet good characters.

Yeah everyone says that... but I suppose its not apparent until you actually read a Flash comic, which not many people have.
I understand that Mark Waid and Geoff Johns did some great stuff with him.

 

[Elijya]

eh, I'd say top rogue's galleries are

3. Flash's
2. Spider-Man's
1. Batman's

 

[ShadowBoxing]

eh, I'd say top rogue's galleries are

3. Flash's
2. Spider-Man's
1. Batman's

I thought you just were criticizing Spidey's rogues.

 

[Elijya]

yeah, and?

I can criticise the Godfather or the Shawshank Redemption, too

 

[Elijya]

when you speak of Rogue's galleries, you take them as a whole.

The Fantastic Four have Dr. Doom and Galactus, two of the greatest comicbook villains ever. But after them? Who's really that notable or special? The Wizard? Dragon Man? The FF lose points because they have two big notables, and too many less notables

While many of Spidey's villains share a fundamental flaw in that they lack a great deal of character depth, they are still the quintessential brawl villains, and he has dozens of them.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

yeah, and?

I can criticise the Godfather or the Shawshank Redemption, too

But then you say it's number 2...so wouldn't the fact that you criticize it mean you feel its not as good as others, seems you hold it in high regard.

when you speak of Rogue's galleries, you take them as a whole.

The Fantastic Four have Dr. Doom and Galactus, two of the greatest comicbook villains ever. But after them? Who's really that notablke or special? The Wizard? Dragon Man?

While many of Spidey's villains share a fundamental flaw in that they lack character depth, they are still the quintessential brawl villains, and he has dozens of them

Fair enough.

 

[Elijya]

just because you can find a flaw in something doesn't mean it doesn't more than make up for it in other ways

 

[Jplaya2023]

DareDevil actually for my money has the best rogues gallery, in fact its the absurdity of some of his foes (like the Owl, Stiltman, Purple Man) that have made them into great characters. Since they could not wow people with their gimmicks, unlike Batman rogues, very unique and distinctive personalities were created for them...and they became these very realistic, gritty and somewhat funny characters. (I especially like Bushwhacker, Bullet, Owl, Purple Man, Stiltman, Bullseye, Mr Fear and Gladiator)

Lets not get crazy now. Batman and Spiderman's rogue >>>>> marvel and DC.

Kingpin is definitely a great villian, not up their with film greats or literary greats...but great comic characters. Especially with the Frank Miller revitalization.

When Kingpin first debut he was about as silly as Rhino. He'd even charge into battle with Spider-Man as if he were any other foe. However Frank Miller turned him into a business man who used economics and smear tactics to deal with the likes of DD and Spidey. He'd ruin their lives rather than outirght kill them, and actually succeeded a many an occasion...making him all the more of a great villian. Everyone remembers the brillance that is Born Again.

Lex Luthor is the single most overrated villian in the history of villians. King pin is top 5 GOAT

Kingpin is up there with the immortal legends like joker, doc ock, penguin rogue's of that caliber.

 

[The Overlord]

But the fact is that that many villains are only as good as the people who write them. Bullseye was lame until Miller made him a psychopath assassin in the 1980s, Purple Man was lame until Bendis transformed him into an insane rapist in Alias. Even really lame villains like Catman have become cool in the hands of the right writer. I think a lot of DD's second stringer villains have potenial to become ever dangerous villains, Purple Man (he has already been revamped, just use him in DD again), Mr. Hyde (he is supposed to be evil incarinate, write him as a cunning and bloodthristy monster), Typhoid Mary (already used well by Bendis, perhaps explore her past a bit) and Bushwacker (play up his religious fundamentalism, make him DD's spirtual antithesis.)

Again there are villains who maybe a bit silly for the post Miller DD world like Stilt-Man, Matador and Leap Frog, but their reformed and I think they shouldn't become villains again unless someone has a damn good reason for it. Anyway I think there is room for other good villains in DD lore besides Bullseye and Kingpin and perhaps those two should be given a rest, their a bit overexposed at the moment.

 

[The Overlord]

when you speak of Rogue's galleries, you take them as a whole.

The Fantastic Four have Dr. Doom and Galactus, two of the greatest comicbook villains ever. But after them? Who's really that notable or special? The Wizard? Dragon Man? The FF lose points because they have two big notables, and too many less notables
.

Again with the FF rogues gallery, a lot of villains are not bad characters, they just suffer from bvad writing. There are two B list FF villains that i think have potenial. First Annihilus, currently he is the main villain in the Annhiliation mini series, where he is the leader of the Annhiliation Wave, a military force that is causing destruction across the universe and is giving problems to a team of major cosmic characters including Silver Surfer and Super Skrull, that seems pretty powerful and dangerous. In light of recent events, I would suggest that Annihilus is a worthy for for the FF.

My second villain is the Mad thinker, you may snicker at that but hear me out. The Mad Thinker is the only human villain the FF have, that can present a formidable intellectual challenge to Reed Richards that is different from Dr. Doom's intellectual challenge. Unlike Doom or the Wizard (who is just the poor man's Doom) the Mad Thinker's brain acts as a super computer, this gives him certain advantages and disadvantages over other geniuses. First he is not an orginal thinker, he does have to steal the ideas of others, but what he can do is improve apon those stolen ideas once he gains access to them (in the past he has managed to even improve upon Reed's technology. Second, he can predict anything expect human behaviour, which makes him very dangerous, this would allow to him create disastrous chain reactions across the world, causing choas by changing a few mudane factors. Again the mad thinker should be really dangerous, with his abilties he should be organize super villains raids that go off like clock work, trade information and technology with other criminals and other such stuff. The Thinker's abilities would make Orcale from the Batman universer look like a ****** 6 year old with a spell n speak.

 

[Red Mask]

In the latest issue of wizard they rank the top 100 villains and Wilson Fisk doesn't even get an honorable mention? Why? IMO the Kingpin ranks up there with Micheal Corleone as one of the greatest fictional crime bosses. He should atleast be in the top 5. Hes definitely better than Lex Luthor.

The Kingpin is a better, more believable crimelord than mad scientist Lex Luthor. But the Kingpin never invented the Galactic Golem.

 

[Fantasyartist]

Personally I think that the Kingpin is the most realistic portrayal of what organised crime is like in comics. (as is Tombstone). About the only thing I didn't like about "Daredevil:The Movie" was their casting of African American Micahel Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin( when everybody and his brother KNOWS that he's white; the notroiously racist Mob bosses in New York -or any other big US city would never tolerate a "melanzana" ( eggplant in Italian- derogatory name for blacks) ammassing so much power as to threaten them)

Terry