Why the love for a Supergirl spinoff?..

[TheCaptain22555]

I wouldn't be down with a Supergirl spinoff. It'd be just like Smallville. I don't even think it'd be that interesting.

 

[AgentPat]

I agree with you Pat, but some people are just narrowminded and want everything to be 100% like the comics, forgetting that comics' characters also change thru the years, different writers bring their own vision of things, why would SV be any different?

Now wait... hang on a second Mikelus. I wouldn't necessarily call the comic aficionados narrow-minded. I think there's a little reluctance with accepting new ideas, but for the most part, I think the people who want the show to be just like the comics - or have very little skew from the comics - are those that just want something they're familiar with. Unfortunately, this is almost impossible considering the very nature of SV: Superman as Superman doesn't even exist yet in their world.

I know that isn't new information LOL, but it does seem to be the prevailing notion among some fans that the show should copy the comics or just skip to the chase. But that's not what the writers, producers and indeed the cast signed on to do.

Personally, I don't mind when they veer off canon. I like to see them heading in the right direction of course, but if they drag their feet here and there or introduce concepts or characters that are WAY off the beaten track, oh well. As long as they keep the show entertaining and the stories are focused on Clark, I'll watch the show as long as they dish it out to me. I don't watch SV just because it's about Superman. I watch it because I like their characters, one of whom just happens to BE Superman, albeit a young version of him - and I love their version.

 

[Migu-EL]

You weren't being mocked. But it is confusing to hear people constantly complain about the differences between SV and the comics - "That's not the same character." "How come Bizarro doesn't talk strange?" "'Blank' colored Krytponite doesn't work that way." "Why is Metropolis in Kansas?" And the most recent, "When in the comics were MM and Jor-El friends?" Etc. The show does not and will not follow the comics to the letter. Smallville stays fresh by respecting the mythology without being slaves to it. We've known that since Day One, so I've never understood why any change at all comes as a big mystery. The one sheet for SV reads: "Reinterpreting the Superman mythology from its roots."

This goes for the characters, too.

Half the time you can blame DC for that. Never mind not being able to use "Flash" for Bart - they couldn't even give Clark a white dog because it would look too much like the real Krypto. Many times, the "in name only" works in reverse. Adam Knight, for example. Adam West? Dark Knight? Get it? Was Adam Knight Batman? NO! It was just a nod to the fans.

The other half of the time I think the writers are just using common sense. SV is a live-action show; some comic-based characters wouldn't work in that format w/o being overly ridiculous. For example, would you have rather had a purple imp from the 5th dimension instead of a foreign exchange student? They're also playing to a general audience, not just comic fans.

I realize comic readers can sometimes be miffed by certain changes in characterization, some radically so - Morgan Edge, Dr. Hamilton, Zor-El - just to name a few, but that's the show. And they have DC's blessing in everything they do, especially when it comes to canonical characters. Just sayin'.

Well said.

 

[Prison Mike]

very well said Pat!

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Now wait... hang on a second Mikelus. I wouldn't necessarily call the comic aficionados narrow-minded. I think there's a little reluctance with accepting new ideas, but for the most part, I think the people who want the show to be just like the comics - or have very little skew from the comics - are those that just want something they're familiar with. Unfortunately, this is almost impossible considering the very nature of SV: Superman as Superman doesn't even exist yet in their world.

I know that isn't new information LOL, but it does seem to be the prevailing notion among some fans that the show should copy the comics or just skip to the chase. But that's not what the writers, producers and indeed the cast signed on to do.

Personally, I don't mind when they veer off canon. I like to see them heading in the right direction of course, but if they drag their feet here and there or introduce concepts or characters that are WAY off the beaten track, oh well. As long as they keep the show entertaining and the stories are focused on Clark, I'll watch the show as long as they dish it out to me. I don't watch SV just because it's about Superman. I watch it because I like their characters, one of whom just happens to BE Superman, albeit a young version of him - and I love their version.

I don't mind the producers taking certain liberties with the character. It's just that some of the stuff in the last couple seasons doesn't work for me. I was cool with the caves, Jor-El visiting Earth, Dr. Swan telling Clark about Krypton, Mxylplick (or however you spell his name) and Bizarro. However, Martian Manhunter, Zod and the portals are ideas I don't like, here's why;

Martian Manhunter - It's too much of a departure and cheapens the character, from his own "man" to just being Jor-El's lapdog, if you want someone to watch over Clark, use the Erradicator, he's at least Kryptonian, the Fortress gives him life and a body.

Zod - Or actually the combining of Zod and Lex, I just don't like the idea of fusing two of Superman's greatest villians into one. Keep him as a spirit that infects a human, just make it someone other than Lex. The concept just felt like lazy writing.

The Portals - Hate this concept, it's just ridiculous having Kryptonians visiting earth all the time, it's just served no point other than to cheapen Clark's journey, from random chance to calculated move.

 

[Lemaris]

I think the portals and the entire Lara arc was just terrible.

 

[Prison Mike]

It wasn't the best, but certainly not the worst storyarc. I thought the witch arc with the crystals was terrible. Compared to witches, I prefer Lara and Blue.

 

[avidreader]

However, Martian Manhunter, Zod and the portals are ideas I don't like, here's why;

Zod - Or actually the combining of Zod and Lex, I just don't like the idea of fusing two of Superman's greatest villians into one. Keep him as a spirit that infects a human, just make it someone other than Lex. The concept just felt like lazy writing.

You may not have liked the idea of Zod and Lex being fused together, but that storyline required several episodes to set it all up, so it was anything but lazy.

 

[AgentPat]

These are the points that were being addressed:

I'd hate to see a spin-off of Smallville's Martian Manhunter basically because he doesn't seem like any incarnation of the Manhunter I've seen. When, in the comics, were MM and Jor-El friends? They should've used the Eradicator or something with actual Kryptonian ties in the Manhunter's role.

I and others said that this is par for the course for SV, and that it's been that way since the beginning.

I don't mind the producers taking certain liberties with the character.

By taking liberties with a character or facet of the mythology, that character or facet will invariably be changed in some way. It may in fact be unlike any incarnation you may have seen before. So the question becomes, at what point do you no longer accept their interpretation?

It's just that some of the stuff in the last couple seasons doesn't work for me. I was cool with the caves, Jor-El visiting Earth, Dr. Swan telling Clark about Krypton, Mxylplick (or however you spell his name) and Bizarro. However, Martian Manhunter, Zod and the portals are ideas I don't like, here's why;

Martian Manhunter - It's too much of a departure and cheapens the character, from his own "man" to just being Jor-El's lapdog, if you want someone to watch over Clark, use the Eradicator, he's at least Kryptonian, the Fortress gives him life and a body.

MM is a lesser supporting character who is being kept very mysterious for good reason. He's not Jor-El's "lap dog" though; he's been characterized as a bounty hunter who worked with Jor-El. Big difference there. Given the focus of the show, that's really all that's necessary, doncha think? I'm rather happy they haven't gone too far with his or other character's back stories. It's not about them; it's about Clark.

Allison Mack was once asked if she would have liked to have the Sullivan family explored in greater detail. Her reply?

Selfishly, of course. Because it could flesh my character out beautifully. But if I look at the show realistically, it's not about each individual character, it's about Smallville, and it's Clark Kent's story. If there was a way that we could involve Clark in those storylines, then it would be a great episode, but ultimately the show is about Clark and his journey, and how we play into that.

Mack gets it.

Zod - Or actually the combining of Zod and Lex, I just don't like the idea of fusing two of Superman's greatest villains into one. Keep him as a spirit that infects a human, just make it someone other than Lex. The concept just felt like lazy writing.

Recognize this guy:

^ That's Lexiac.

In the first season of Justice League Unlimited, Luthor announces he was running for President of the United States. This is later revealed to be a ruse to enrage Superman. In reality, Luthor is really financially backing Project Cadmus, a shadow government organization dedicated to eradicating the League if they ever turn on Earth's population. Luthor ultimately betrays them, hijacking the League's space-based laser to take out Cadmus leaving the impression the League had attacked the United States government. While attempting to place his mind in a duplicate of A.M.A.Z.O., he is thwarted by Amanda Waller of Cadmus. At this point, it was revealed that Brainiac had downloaded himself into Luthor long ago in the Superman: The Animated Series episode "Ghost in the Machine", secretly manipulating his actions. After the two merge into a more complete being using alien nanotechnology, Luthor/Brainiac attempts to destroy the world, but they are halted by The Flash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor

And one more...

During a previous encounter years before (in the Superman: The Animated Series episode "Ghost in the Machine"), Brainiac had delivered a nano-robotic probe carrying a portion of his consciousness into Lex Luthor. It began modifying Luthor's body, subtly controlling him into committing actions that resulted in a major story arc that occurred throughout the first two seasons of Justice League Unlimited. At the end of the episode "Panic in the Sky" and continuing into the following episode, "Divided We Fall", Brainiac revealed himself to the Justice League and assimilated nanotechnology from the alien Dark Heart machine (from the episode of that name) as well as technology derived from Amazo. At Luthor's urging, Brainiac merged with Luthor, becoming a single entity possessing Brainiac's goals and approaches tempered by Luthor's ambition and cruelty, with the new purpose of destroying the universe and recreating it in their image. (The ensuing battle featured a Brainiac skull-shaped spaceship similar to the one used by the pre-Crisis metal bodied Brainiac). This version of Brainiac/Luthor was mostly gold and blue, and partially robotic. Though they managed to subdue most of the Justice League members, Luthor/Brainiac were ultimately defeated by the Flash (who for the first time in the DC Animated Universe became one with the Speed Force as several of the Flashes have done in the comics).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainiac_(comics)

Now, why is SV's version of Lex merging with Zod any different than the liberties taken with Lex and Braniac on other shows?

The Portals - Hate this concept, it's just ridiculous having Kryptonians visiting earth all the time, it's just served no point other than to cheapen Clark's journey, from random chance to calculated move.

On this I agree. I'd also add that bringing Kara/Supergirl onto the show cheapened his journey too.

I think it just comes down to what you as the viewer are willing to "accept" as a viable change or addition to the mythology, because SV is its own mythology by default. We can piss and moan about what they're doing - and by golly, we DO LOL - but complaining that it's not like something we already know is kind of... I dunno... silly. It was never supposed to be a carbon copy of the comics or other interpretations. When it is (reference things like the FOS design), THAT is when it comes off as being "lazy." JMHO.

I love Smallville and won't miss an episode, and it's every bit as influential as the rest of Superman's grand history.

Right on, Mark!

 

[amazingfantasy15]

You may not have liked the idea of Zod and Lex being fused together, but that storyline required several episodes to set it all up, so it was anything but lazy.

To me it doesn't matter how many episodes it takes to get somewhere if the payoff doesn't work and comes off as an easy way out, I consider it lazy. It took Heroes an entire season to get to the showdown in Kirby Plaza, but I think everyone can agree the final payoff fight was an example of lazy writing.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

These are the points that were being addressed:

I and others said that this is par for the course for SV, and that it's been that way since the beginning.

By taking liberties with a character or facet of the mythology, that character or facet will invariably be changed in some way. It may in fact be unlike any incarnation you may have seen before. So the question becomes, at what point do you no longer accept their interpretation?

MM is a lesser supporting character who is being kept very mysterious for good reason. He's not Jor-El's "lap dog" though; he's been characterized as a bounty hunter who worked with Jor-El. Big difference there. Given the focus of the show, that's really all that's necessary, doncha think? I'm rather happy they haven't gone too far with his or other character's back stories. It's not about them; it's about Clark.

Allison Mack was once asked if she would have liked to have the Sullivan family explored in greater detail. Her reply?

Mack gets it.

So since that's been the way it's always been on Smallville we should just accept it? Why? Let's say they bring in Batman, but don't want the normal take, they want Batman to be a happy go lucky guy, not really haunted by his parent's death, just comes to Smallville hangs out at Lex's mansion for a while partying, we should just accept that, it's Smallville's interpretation of the character. Like I said, I don't mind most of Smallville's reimaginings, but Martian Manhunter just doesn't feel right to me.

Also you're Chloe example doesn't work, we're exploring Martain Manhunter's background, that's my problem is what they're doing to his background. If he was just this mysterious guy helping Clark out from time to time I'd be fine with that, what I don't like is his connection to Jor-El.

 

[Prison Mike]

So since that's been the way it's always been on Smallville we should just accept it? Why? Let's say they bring in Batman, but don't want the normal take, they want Batman to be a happy go lucky guy, not really haunted by his parent's death, just comes to Smallville hangs out at Lex's mansion for a while partying, we should just accept that, it's Smallville's interpretation of the character. Like I said, I don't mind most of Smallville's reimaginings, but Martian Manhunter just doesn't feel right to me.

Also you're Chloe example doesn't work, we're exploring Martain Manhunter's background, that's my problem is what they're doing to his background. If he was just this mysterious guy helping Clark out from time to time I'd be fine with that, what I don't like is his connection to Jor-El.

why would you think Smallville would do that? They can't change the big things about characters. DC would never let them have Bruce come in, not haunted by his parents death and party with Lex. I don't understand how you can not accept the reimaginings of the characters. That's what the show is about. They were always up front about it. The connection with MM and Jor-El is not a big deal. He's still from Mars and the last one from the planet.

 

[avidreader]

To me it doesn't matter how many episodes it takes to get somewhere if the payoff doesn't work and comes off as an easy way out, I consider it lazy.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. What was the easy way out?

The story was written in this particular way to leave a lasting impression on Lex. Do you think that he would have been so obsessed with building a super army to combat aliens/meteor freaks if he hadnt been the one that was personally possessed by an alien entity. It also sets up his distrust and rivalry with Superman in the future.

I'm failing to see the laziness that you speak of.

 

[AgentPat]

So since that's been the way it's always been on Smallville we should just accept it? Why?

Because it's entertainment, and you've already made a choice to accept watching it? If the show wasn't what you expected in the beginning, or if you feel it has radically changed, why do you still watch it? This is an honest question. And please, don't tell me it's because you're a Superman fan and it's your only option, or you've come this far and need to see it through to the end. I got bored with Heroes. I'm done watching it. This is entertainment. If it doesn't entertain anymore, or if you're angered by what they ARE doing, then you're just being a masochist sticking around. Y'know?

Let's say they bring in Batman, but don't want the normal take, they want Batman to be a happy go lucky guy, not really haunted by his parent's death, just comes to Smallville hangs out at Lex's mansion for a while partying, we should just accept that, it's Smallville's interpretation of the character.

First off, Batman will never show up on SV, and you know that. But just for argument sake, lets say they clear it. It would be Bruce Wayne (since Batman doesn't exist yet), and DC would *never* let them get away with a characterization that didn't involve Bruce losing his parents when he was a child. That's a major part of his character, just like Clark coming to Earth in a spaceship. He wasn't born here, beamed here, or consummated here. He was sent here as a baby by his father to save him from a dying planet. That will NEVER change. It's part of the myth, just like Batman's parents being killed when he was a child. As to partying with Lex in the mansion, y'know, I could see that. BW is a playboy, after all.

Like I said, I don't mind most of Smallville's reimaginings, but Martian Manhunter just doesn't feel right to me.

Okay, but this isn't a show about MM, which was my point of using Mack's comments about Chloe.

If he was just this mysterious guy helping Clark out from time to time I'd be fine with that,

That's exactly what he is.

what I don't like is his connection to Jor-El.

I'm baffled why this makes that big of a deal to you. It's just an added nuance to his character - like Clark coming to Earth in a meteor shower. And as I continue to point out, the show is not about MM, just like it's not about Chloe Sullivan, Supergirl, Oliver Queen, Lois Lane or any other supporting character. It's not even really about Lex Luthor or Lana Lang. It's about Smallville and Clark Kent. All of the other characters are there to tell his story - some just need more development because of who they are and how they relate to Clark.

 

[JackMercy]

By taking liberties with a character or facet of the mythology, that character or facet will invariably be changed in some way. It may in fact be unlike any incarnation you may have seen before. So the question becomes, at what point do you no longer accept their interpretation?

Recognize this guy:

^ That's Lexiac.

And one more...

Now, why is SV's version of Lex merging with Zod any different than the liberties taken with Lex and Braniac on other shows?

Ah... and I believe Mr. Timm and his posse might themselves have cribbed that...idea... from the aborted drafts for Mr. Peters and Mr. Burton's proposed Supes film...

And even Peters can only dubiously claim to have...err..."come up with it"...

"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatever_Happened_To_The_Man_of_Tomorrow?

(This might be the one and only time you see me reference...the wiki...)

...But Pat's point is, as usual, spot on...

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Because it's entertainment, and you've already made a choice to accept watching it? If the show wasn't what you expected in the beginning, or if you feel it has radically changed, why do you still watch it? This is an honest question. And please, don't tell me it's because you're a Superman fan and it's your only option, or you've come this far and need to see it through to the end. I got bored with Heroes. I'm done watching it. This is entertainment. If it doesn't entertain anymore, or if you're angered by what they ARE doing, then you're just being a masochist sticking around. Y'know?

I actually stopped watching the show last year because I thought the storylines were so bad, I decided to check out the season premiere and actually liked it, with some of the recent episodes though I might stop watching it again though.

First off, Batman will never show up on SV, and you know that. But just for argument sake, lets say they clear it. It would be Bruce Wayne (since Batman doesn't exist yet), and DC would *never* let them get away with a characterization that didn't involve Bruce losing his parents when he was a child. That's a major part of his character, just like Clark coming to Earth in a spaceship. He wasn't born here, beamed here, or consummated here. He was sent here as a baby by his father to save him from a dying planet. That will NEVER change. It's part of the myth, just like Batman's parents being killed when he was a child. As to partying with Lex in the mansion, y'know, I could see that. BW is a playboy, after all.

Yes, Batman/Bruce Wayne will never show up, I was just using an example though and he was the first character that came to mind. Pretend though that Batman is a lower level character and the producers were able to mess with the character's origin's in that way, would you mind. We all know he'll be Batman in the futre and after all the show isn't about Batman, so why not mess with the character just because they can.

Okay, but this isn't a show about MM, which was my point of using Mack's comments about Chloe.

That's exactly what he is.

I'm baffled why this makes that big of a deal to you. It's just an added nuance to his character - like Clark coming to Earth in a meteor shower. And as I continue to point out, the show is not about MM, just like it's not about Chloe Sullivan, Supergirl, Oliver Queen, Lois Lane or any other supporting character. It's not even really about Lex Luthor or Lana Lang. It's about Smallville and Clark Kent. All of the other characters are there to tell his story - some just need more development because of who they are and how they relate to Clark.

See that's the thing though, to me ties these two characters together too much, it makes Martian Manhunter play a huge role in Superman's origin, it's not needed, Gough and Millar have other characters they could use in this role, it's unnecessary. Why not have Martian Manhunter play a role like Oliver Queen, Bart Allen, just a another future hero Clark comes across in his days before being a hero, why tie him to Clark's parents and therefore origin?

 

[TWistim]

Originally Posted by AgentPat
Allison Mack was once asked if she would have liked to have the Sullivan family explored in greater detail. Her reply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison Mack
Selfishly, of course. Because it could flesh my character out beautifully. But if I look at the show realistically, it's not about each individual character, it's about Smallville, and it's Clark Kent's story. If there was a way that we could involve Clark in those storylines, then it would be a great episode, but ultimately the show is about Clark and his journey, and how we play into that.


Mack gets it.

Agreed. None of the characters could hold my interest in this show without Clark. Lex as a character is interesting enough and could probably helm a show of his own if it was handled right but it would be a different show.

On Smallville when a character overshadows Clark they all lose IMO. That's why episodes like "Suspect," "Bound," or "Progeny" are not well-remembered episodes. They gave insight into the supporting character but didn't actually add to Clark's story in a meaningful way. But an episode like "Memoria," even if it is basically a Lex-centric episode, elicits my interest because ultimately it has meaning in the context of their future rivalry and the contrast between characters. Lex's tragic upbringing vs. Clark's fortunate upbringing bears direct consequences on their future relationship. "Memoria" also gave us one of the most memorable scenes in SV history. (No, not Clark lying on the table in spandex, although that is quite memorable, too!) The scene I'm talking about is with Martha in the barn at the end and it is probably one of my alltime favorites. Clark realizes that he had two mothers who have really loved him and for the first time he realizes that his Kryptonian parents were concerned about him and thinking about his safety and wanting him to be loved. That scene is all the more poignant because we have just seen Lex's backstory with his self-absorbed father and mentally unstable mother .

Back on topic . . . I'm not sure I'd be interested in a Supergirl spin-off at this point. I like LV more and more, we've just not seen enough character development for me to really get interested in her. I do like that she's settling down and seeing more of what Clark values in humans. I would like to see her and Clark bond and become close because I want Clark to have that family element in his life. But just when that has a chance of developing she is swept away and has amnesia so who knows how that will end. I suspect she's going to be seduced by Lex and misled causing Clark more trouble. With this season "having to" be cut short (BUMMER!)and no word on an 8th season yet (although my money's on us getting one) there's a lot that remains to be seen and if we do get an 8th season alot can happen between now and series end.

 

[Batman the 6th]

I'd love to see a GA spin-off, a Kara spin-off, or a JL spin-off. Either of them would be fine. Maybe the Justice League would move to Star City.