Why...

[Shikamaru]

You must have missed the part where I said that it was clearly obvious that he meant to say "on the big screen". You are making a big deal out of nothing. His point is what is important and what you should address.

 

[DigificWriter]

His point is what is important and what you should address.

I already did, but will address it further.

You're really not going to lose anything in terms of significance if you were to take advantage of what's already been established and merge the post-TDKR TDKT universe with MoS to create the first two pillars of a shared cinematic DCU even if Bruce Wayne isn't in the Batsuit.

Even without Bruce Wayne in the suit, Nolan's universe still remains viable storytelling ground. Whether or not 'fanboys' like the idea, Bruce passed the mantle of Batman on, and Nolan left things open-ended enough that his universe can still be utilized with or without him and with or without his Bruce Wayne.

Christopher Nolan's ending to TDKR established that the 'symbol' of Batman was much more important than the 'man behind the mask', and clearly set up John Blake to become the next physical embodiment of that idea by having Bruce pass on the physical mantle of Batman - and all its accompanying trappings - to him. This means that Blake will at some point take up the duty of protecting Gotham from any and all threats just as Bruce would had he not chosen to 'pass the torch' and move on to a normal life with Selina.

In addition to the film's ending establishing that Blake will at some point allow the citizens of Gotham to see that the Batman has returned, there is also the lingering issue of what happened to The Joker; in spite of Christopher Nolan feeling that it would be disrespectful to Heath Ledger's memory to recast the role, the character's fate remains unresolved from an in-universe story standpoint and is someone who could conceivably rear his head once again to challenge John Blake in his guise as the new physical embodiment of the 'symbol' of Batman.

The fact that Nolan's Batman endures as a symbol regardless of who physically wears the suit, cape, and cowl, coupled with the lingering issue of The Joker's in-universe fate and the similar tone and 'look' of MoS and the TDKT is what I was referring to and meant when I said that the TDKT universe remains viable and could be very easily merged with MoS.

 

[Shikamaru]

The problem is that the whole message of TDKR completely goes against everything that Batman is about. Whether or not you like the message of TDKR that you just described does not change that. That is one of the reasons why I don't want to see that universe merged with MOS. Whatever happens with Batman after TDKR, whether it is good or not, is not Batman as people know him. Not even a loose adapted version.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Fair enough. I disagree with that, but things are as they are.

Either way, though, I do think it's fair to ask the question 'why reboot the franchise when, regardless of what people might've felt about the way Nolan ended TDKR, his universe remains viable storytelling ground and could very easily be merged with MoS', which is why I started this thread.

 

[Shikamaru]

Fair enough to you as well.

I already listed a few reasons for that. I also think it would be a much better financial choice for WB to reboot (see links in my signature).

 

[Bathead]

Please put aside all dislike of the idea of JGL's John Blake as Batman and just answer the question I posed. Nolan's universe is still very viable, so why shouldn't WB take advantage of that?

Because, Nolan's version is done. Unless Nolan is at the helm, there's no sense revisiting his version, no-one else could do his vision of Batman's universe as well. Since Nolan won't have anything to do with Batman anymore, it's up to the next director to bring his own version to the screen. It's time to move on.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I disagree, but I can see where that sentiment comes from. I think that there are a number of writers and directors out there who could pick up the TDKT universe and seamlessly run with it and tie it in with MoS and a wider cinematic DCU, with my top picks to do so being David Slade (director), Geoff Johns (writer), and Greg Berlanti (writer). I think Slade has the sensibilities to pick up where Nolan left off and compliment his and Snyder's work on MoS, and Berlanti and Johns' credentials should speak for themselves.

 

[DeGenerate10]

If we're going to see Batman and Superman in a live action movie together for the first time it has to be Bruce. Bruce Wayne is the iconic Batman not John Blake.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I agree. First Justice League/Worlds Finest film needs Bruce Wayne. But I see no reason why Nolan's Bruce keeps feeling the need to retire. He should definitely come out of hiding.

 

[Boom]

Shikamaru pretty much hit it on the head. Superman and Batman have never been on screen together in a big-budget live-action film. When it finally does happen, if it is anyone but Bruce Wayne under that cowl, then it will go down as one of the biggest ***** slaps in the history of cinema. The entire left side of my face goes numb just from thinking about it. Why anyone would be okay with that is truly and utterly beyond me. I genuinely cannot comprehend it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. You cast JGL in The Justice League or The World's Finest, I'm out. Not even going to bother with it. Then I'll just hope that I live to see the day when the studio and filmmakers have even a notion of common sense and give us the real Superman/Batman dynamic on screen.

 

[DigificWriter]

I I see no reason why Nolan's Bruce keeps feeling the need to retire.

He's physically incapable of continuing to be Batman. TDKR clearly established that.

 

[Shikamaru]

Shikamaru pretty much hit it on the head. Superman and Batman have never been on screen together in a big-budget live-action film. When it finally does happen, if it is anyone but Bruce Wayne under that cowl, then it will go down as one of the biggest ***** slaps in the history of cinema. The entire left side of my face goes numb just from thinking about it. Why anyone would be okay with that is truly and utterly beyond me. I genuinely cannot comprehend it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. You cast JGL in The Justice League or The World's Finest, I'm out. Not even going to bother with it. Then I'll just hope that I live to see the day when the studio and filmmakers have even a notion of common sense and give us the real Superman/Batman dynamic on screen.

Agreed. How anyone can even entertain the idea of John Blake as Batman in the first ever Justice League movie is beyond me.

 

[DigificWriter]

Agreed. How anyone can even entertain the idea of John Blake as Batman in the first ever Justice League movie is beyond me.

Because it IS a viable option, at least IMO, and solves one of Warner Bros. biggest problems in emulating what Marvel's doing: having to take the time to establish characters on their own before teaming them up as part of a JL movie.

If Warner Bros. completely reboots the Batman franchise - AGAIN - it adds to the number of characters they need to establish/introduce in order to make a JL movie work unless they just plan on throwing these characters at audiences in one fell swoop, which isn't really the best option as was evidenced by the amount of backlash that the George Miller JL project received both from fans and others.

 

[jonathancrane]

Batman does not need to be introduced in the JL; all of the individuals who have heard of the character are familiar with his background. Six legs went into Crime Alley and two left, as the Riddler once wrote. That's all that's needed. That frees up some considerable screentime; with MOS coming to theaters, even more screentime is freed, which leaves the Flash, Wonder Woman, and possibly Aquaman to be introduced. Introducing three characters can be done, esp. if it is a 2.5 hour film. If either of the unfilmed three have a film beforehand, writing in two new characters can be done in one's sleep.

 

[the5timechamp]

They could choose to do a MOS 2 before Justice League and introduce another hero alongside Superman so as to ride his coattails...
Justice League itself could focus on a conflict tied into the heroes they havent introduced thereby organically introducing a new hero and the league at once..

Flash is one of the more interesting and dynamic of the heroes, I feel he doesnt need an origin movie and could easily endear himself to any audience without need of a dedicated film.

 

[Shikamaru]

Because it IS a viable option, at least IMO, and solves one of Warner Bros. biggest problems in emulating what Marvel's doing: having to take the time to establish characters on their own before teaming them up as part of a JL movie.

And you can't do this with a rebooted Batman because....?

Also, you're misinterpreting what I meant. What I meant is that I cannot comprehend why any Batman fan would like the idea of having John Blake as Batman in the first ever JL movie and would be ok with him over Bruce Wayne. It doesn't matter how much it makes sense critically and financially (even though I would argue it is a stupid decision from whatever perspective you look at). It makes no sense to me why someone who loves the character of Batman would want it.

If Warner Bros. completely reboots the Batman franchise - AGAIN - it adds to the number of characters they need to establish/introduce in order to make a JL movie work unless they just plan on throwing these characters at audiences in one fell swoop, which isn't really the best option as was evidenced by the amount of backlash that the George Miller JL project received both from fans and others.

Batman is a character you don't need that much time establishing. You can jump straight in and skip his origin or briefly address it in his first appearance.

 

[BatLobster]

The reason fans can't help but wonder about merging the Nolanverse with the Snyderverse is simple: the Snyderverse seems like it's compatible with the Nolanverse. Everything points to the MOS franchise being Superman's answer to The Dark Knight Trilogy. And on top of that, people don't tend to be too keen to see something rebooted when the previous version wasn't too long ago (eg. The Amazing Spider-Man).

I wouldn't want to see a JL/WF movie starring Blake, but I can understand why some fans aren't opposed to imagining scenarios that invite Bruce/Bale to return to the role to star alongside Cavill. As far as we know this has no chance of happening so it's a moot point, but I do get it.

The other semi-troubling thing about all this is that the rebooted Batman will almost have to conform to illusionary realism if it is to take place in the same universe as Man of Steel. Yes, MoS is heavy on the Sci-Fi, but both Goyer and Snyder have repeatedly emphasized that it's meant to take place in a recognizable real world to create the effect of "what would happen if the world discovered there was a superpowered alien among them?". The existence of aliens doesn't really do much to create a more fantasy-based Batman solo world because he doesn't have aliens in his rogues gallery. Theoretically a big advantage to rebooting Batman would be to put him in more of a comic booky setting like so many fans want, yet Goyer and Snyder have said that Man of Steel is not trying to be comic booky. It's a bit of a conundrum because there's the possibility of a reboot that is too similar to Nolan's on one hand, and one that violates the tone and base-level Earth "realism" established in MoS on the other.

With all the creative talent currently at WB's fingertips, I'm sure they will find the solutions in due time, but these are things to think about.

 

[Shikamaru]

The reason fans can't help but wonder about merging the Nolanverse with the Snyderverse is simple: the Snyderverse seems like it's compatible with the Nolanverse. Everything points to the MOS franchise being Superman's answer to The Dark Knight Trilogy. And on top of that, people don't tend to be too keen to see something rebooted when the previous version wasn't too long ago (eg. The Amazing Spider-Man).

I wouldn't want to see a JL/WF movie starring Blake, but I can understand why some fans aren't opposed to imagining scenarios that invite Bruce/Bale to return to the role to star alongside Cavill. As far as we know this has no chance of happening so it's a moot point, but I do get it.

The other semi-troubling thing about all this is that the rebooted Batman will almost have to conform to illusionary realism if it is to take place in the same universe as Man of Steel. Yes, MoS is heavy on the Sci-Fi, but both Goyer and Snyder have repeatedly emphasized that it's meant to take place in a recognizable real world to create the effect of "what would happen if the world discovered there was a superpowered alien among them?". The existence of aliens doesn't really do much to create a more fantasy-based Batman solo world because he doesn't have aliens in his rogues gallery. Theoretically a big advantage to rebooting Batman would be to put him in more of a comic booky setting like so many fans want, yet Goyer and Snyder have said that Man of Steel is not trying to be comic booky. It's a bit of a conundrum because there's the possibility of a reboot that is too similar to Nolan's on one hand, and one that violates the tone and base-level Earth "realism" established in MoS on the other.

With all the creative talent currently at WB's fingertips, I'm sure they will find the solutions in due time, but these are things to think about.

That is different. I can understand that to a degree as well. What I cannot understand is why anyone would want Blake in WF/JL as opposed to Bruce.

I think the difference between TDKT and MOS is the following: TDKT was set in real world and only certain elements from comic book mythos could happen. MOS will be set in the real world but with all elements from comic book mythos being possible. Yes, they did say MOS will be "realistic" and "grounded" but we have to keep in mind how subjective those definitions are. Those things mean entirely different things when you vary from franchise to franchise. From what we've seen of MOS, it doesn't look as grounded as TDKT was. What MOS looks and feels like to me is a perfect amalgamation of all the types of comic book movies we've got so far. It seems to have the complexity, maturity, and grounded approach of TDKT combined with the heart of Donner's Superman & Favreau's Iron Man combined with the fun bright over-the-top action of The Avengers. Obviously this means there are some TDKT influences there, but it isn't just TDKT that we find in there (at least it doesn't appear as just TDKT) and I would do a Batman reboot the same way.

I also wouldn't mind it if the Batman reboot builds off the success of TDKT. What I mean by that is that they could still keep the tone and feel of the world but with a different costume, more comic booky looking gadgets/vehicles/villains, no origin, and a more detective Batman. As I said before, the "heart" of the Nolan Batman films will still be alive in the DC Cinematic Universe even if they don't end up being set in the universe (see the second link in my signature for a more detailed explanation of this).

 

[BatLobster]

That is different. I can understand that to a degree as well. What I cannot understand is why anyone would want Blake in WF/JL as opposed to Bruce.

I think the difference between TDKT and MOS is the following: TDKT was set in real world and only certain elements from comic book mythos could happen. MOS will be set in the real world but with all elements from comic book mythos being possible. Yes, they did say MOS will be "realistic" and "grounded" but we have to keep in mind how subjective those definitions are. Those things mean entirely different things when you vary from franchise to franchise. From what we've seen of MOS, it doesn't look as grounded as TDKT was. What MOS looks and feels like to me is a perfect amalgamation of all the types of comic book movies we've got so far. It seems to have the complexity, maturity, and grounded approach of TDKT combined with the heart of Donner's Superman & Favreau's Iron Man combined with the fun bright over-the-top action of The Avengers. Obviously this means there are some TDKT influences there, but it isn't just TDKT that we find in there (at least it doesn't appear as just TDKT) and I would do a Batman reboot the same way.

I also wouldn't mind it if the Batman reboot builds off the success of TDKT. What I mean by that is that they could still keep the tone and feel of the world but with a different costume, more comic booky looking gadgets/vehicles/villains, no origin, and a more detective Batman. As I said before, the "heart" of the Nolan Batman films will still be alive in the DC Cinematic Universe even if they don't end up being set in the universe (see the second link in my signature for a more detailed explanation of this).

I think what you've described has a good chance of happening and probably makes the most sense. I also think some fans who are wanting/expecting the reboot to take a complete 180 turn away from Nolan's style should be prepared for that possibility.

Whether you want to call it realism, verisimilitude or w/e, both Nolan's Batman and Snyder's Superman seem to have a certain amount of gravitas to them because of the illusion that they are inhabiting a world that we recognize as our own. This goes a long way in evoking a serious tone. So one way or another it would seem the Batman reboot will have to conform to that model in order to figure into a larger DCU.

As much as a DCU/JL/WF gets talked about though, with all the balls in the air it's still hard for me to imagine it actually happening. I'm glad Snyder seems to be in favor of doing Superman sequels before getting to that. I'd rather wait 5-6 years for something potentially monumental than get something rushed that potentially interferes with the MoS franchise.

The cool thing with Batman is that technology is always advancing and things that were science fiction start becoming science fact or at least easier to imagine. I think time is everyone's friend here for many reasons.

 

[DigificWriter]

What I meant is that I cannot comprehend why any Batman fan would like the idea of having John Blake as Batman in the first ever JL movie and would be ok with him over Bruce Wayne. It doesn't matter how much it makes sense critically and financially (even though I would argue it is a stupid decision from whatever perspective you look at). It makes no sense to me why someone who loves the character of Batman would want it.

Because some of us aren't stuck in this mindset that there's one way and one way only to tell a given story.

Also, who are you to go around dictating what Batman fans should or shouldn't want?

I'm no less a Batman fan than you just because I'm okay with and a proponent of Warner Bros. continuing to take advantage of and utilize the universe that the Nolans and Goyer created since said universe remains viable storytelling ground and would fit seamlessly together with MoS.

 

[Shikamaru]

Because some of us aren't stuck in this mindset that there's one way and one way only to tell a given story.

Also, who are you to go around dictating what Batman fans should or shouldn't want?

I'm no less a Batman fan than you just because I'm okay with and a proponent of Warner Bros. continuing to take advantage of and utilize the universe that the Nolans and Goyer created since said universe remains viable storytelling ground and would fit seamlessly together with MoS.

I'm not stuck in the mindset that there's only one way to tell the story. I'm stuck in the mindset that the JL movie should not be half-assed with unnecessary ideas that completely kill the hype that's been being built for decades. There are infinite number of ways you can do JL and millions of ways you can do it right but there is one basic thing that must not change: Bruce Wayne has to be Batman. Not having that is not being creative/original and having that there is not testing the water or putting source material before a good story on film or anything like that. It is simply honoring the essence of Batman. There are certain limits to how much you can deviate when doing an adaptation, limits that even Elseworld stories often can't cross. Like I said before, this is the most hyped moment in comic book film history. The moment Batman and Superman meet on the big screen. The vast majority of people have awaited this moment for decades. To not have Bruce Wayne as Batman in the movie would be one giant middle finger to the vast majority of people regardless of how good or bad the movie is overall.

I never said I have the right to go around dictating what a Batman fan should or shouldn't like nor did I say that those who want to see Blake as Batman in JL as less of a fan than I am. What I said is that I cannot understand why they would be ok with it. There are many groups of people that I disagree with but for a lot of them, I can at least put myself in their shoes and get some sort of understanding as to why they would feel the way they do about something. I can't do that with John Blake no matter how hard I try.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think what you've described has a good chance of happening and probably makes the most sense. I also think some fans who are wanting/expecting the reboot to take a complete 180 turn away from Nolan's style should be prepared for that possibility.

Whether you want to call it realism, verisimilitude or w/e, both Nolan's Batman and Snyder's Superman seem to have a certain amount of gravitas to them because of the illusion that they are inhabiting a world that we recognize as our own. This goes a long way in evoking a serious tone. So one way or another it would seem the Batman reboot will have to conform to that model in order to figure into a larger DCU.

As much as a DCU/JL/WF gets talked about though, with all the balls in the air it's still hard for me to imagine it actually happening. I'm glad Snyder seems to be in favor of doing Superman sequels before getting to that. I'd rather wait 5-6 years for something potentially monumental than get something rushed that potentially interferes with the MoS franchise.

The cool thing with Batman is that technology is always advancing and things that were science fiction start becoming science fact or at least easier to imagine. I think time is everyone's friend here for many reasons.

I pretty much agree with all of this. Not much for me to say. Wonderful post.

On the topic of DC's films giving the illusion that they take place in what we consider the "real world", that is very ironic when you think about it since most of Marvel's films so far have tried to do almost the exact opposite thing. I find that ironic because it has always been the exact opposite case in the comics.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm not stuck in the mindset that there's only one way to tell the story. I'm stuck in the mindset that the JL movie should not be half-assed.

Using JGL isn't 'half-assed'.

There are infinite number of ways you can do JL and millions of ways you can do it right but there is one basic thing that must not change: Bruce Wayne has to be Batman. Not having that is not being creative/original and having that there is not testing the water or putting source material before a good story on film or anything like that. It is simply honoring the essence of Batman. There are certain limits to how much you can deviate when doing an adaptation, limits that even Elseworld stories often can't cross. Like I said before, this is the most hyped moment in comic book film history. The moment Batman and Superman meet on the big screen. The vast majority of people have awaited this moment for decades. To not have Bruce Wayne as Batman in the movie would be one giant middle finger to the vast majority of people regardless of how good or bad the movie is overall.

Drop both the hyperbole and the superior attitude, please.

Also, saying that the only 'right' way to do a JLA movie is to have Bruce Wayne in the Batsuit is the very definition of 'being stuck in the mindset that there's only one way to tell a given story'.

I never said I have the right to go around dictating what a Batman fan should or shouldn't like nor did I say that those who want to see Blake as Batman in JL as less of a fan than I am. What I said is that I cannot understand why they would be ok with it. There are many groups of people that I disagree with but for a lot of them, I can at least put myself in their shoes and get some sort of understanding as to why they would feel the way they do about something. I can't do that with John Blake no matter how hard I try.

By saying that you can't understand why anyone would be okay with a non-Bruce Wayne Batman in a JL movie, you're implicitly inferring that even entertaining the idea makes someone less of a Batman fan than you.

 

[Shikamaru]

Using JGL isn't 'half-assed'.

I disagree. It would be a lazy attempt of using a version of Robin/Nightwing in a Batsuit as opposed to rebooting Batman in order to have the true Batman on the big screen.

Using John Blake also destroys the Batman/Superman dynamic and Batman's place on the team in the first place. The thing that makes Batman interesting on the team is how messed up he is in comparison to the rest of the team. We also see the main factor that separates Batman from all other superheroes: his obsession and ambition to get the job done. It is on a level that no other superhero can reach, including Superman. There is no way Blake can show that level of obsession, paranoia, and insanity unless you alter the character he was established as, creating a plot hole.

I don't think you realize how much this would change the Justice League. It would literally change everything about the team and the team's overall dynamic as a whole.

Drop both the hyperbole and the superior attitude, please.

No hyperbole, my friend. I promise you that every word of that was my honest opinion.

And what superior attitude?

Also, saying that the only 'right' way to do a JLA movie is to have Bruce Wayne in the Batsuit is the very definition of 'being stuck in the mindset that there's only one way to tell a given story'.

Never said it is the right way to do a JLA movie. I said it is the only right way to do the very first JL movie to ever get made. I also said that regardless of how good or bad the idea is, that is irrelevant. We've long awaited to see Bruce Wayne meet Clark Kent on the big screen. No matter what you do with Blake, it will still be a dissapointment to most people.

 

[Boom]

One of the great ironies about Batman is that despite being the sole human representative of The Justice League (insofar as not having superhuman abilities), he is arguably the least human among them. He's cold, calculated, obsessive, paranoid, detached, and above all hyper-intelligent. That's where the Superman/Batman dynamic is so interesting. The demigod is the more human of the two.

That's what I want in a World's Finest/Justice League movie. And that's why I want a rebooted Batman. Neither Bale nor JGL's versions of the character come anywhere close to fitting that bill for me.