No Way Home "With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility" - Tobey Maguire Returns As RaimiVerse Spider-Man

[The Caped Knight]

I re-watched Spider-Man 2 last night. Some things just jumped out at me more so than usual after having recently watched Holland's movies. For example the glorious train sequence. From the moment he confronts Doc Ock on the clock tower to stopping the speeding train......I am sitting there thinking there's no enhanced suit, no A.I. walking Peter through anything during this, no high tech glasses, no Nick Fury, no Iron Man, no help at all. Just grit, heart, will, and his own strength to take on Ock and save the train passengers.

After 19 years it still holds up and boy does Spidey take a brutal beating, yet he keeps going not just to save MJ. But to save that entire train of people because it’s his responsibility.

 

[Dark Raven]

After 19 years it still holds up and boy does Spidey take a brutal beating, yet he keeps going not just to save MJ. But to save that entire train of people because it’s his responsibility.

He fell far, all the way from a New York skyscraper onto a Chicago train!

Which bits are the extended scenes in this clip?

 

[mclay18]

What really resonates with me from SM-2 is that almost all the best scenes in the movie are quiet and dialogue driven. The superb action scenes (like the bank and runaway train) are the icing on the cake.

 

[Arachnerd]

I hope they find a way to incorporate Danny Elfman’s epic theme from Spider-Man & Spider-Man 2

100% in character for Michael Giacchino to homage old themes from past nostalgic properties. Whether he's allowed to do so is another matter though.

 

[Lookhowfunnyiam]

I re-watched Spider-Man 2 last night. Some things just jumped out at me more so than usual after having recently watched Holland's movies. For example the glorious train sequence. From the moment he confronts Doc Ock on the clock tower to stopping the speeding train......I am sitting there thinking there's no enhanced suit, no A.I. walking Peter through anything during this, no high tech glasses, no Nick Fury, no Iron Man, no help at all. Just grit, heart, will, and his own strength to take on Ock and save the train passengers.

I love Tom Holland’s Spider Man but I hope he gets here someday. Another thing when you are watching the Raimi movies, Peter never ever loses sight of why he's doing what he does. Uncle Ben's influence is always there. Those movies never let you forget the impact his death had on Peter. TASM movies completely lost sight of it with the whole boring sub plot of Peter's parents. As for Holland its vaguely hinted but never properly referenced in his movies.

I'm not trying to start a whole who's Spider-Man is better debate. It just hits home when watching Raimi's movies how many of the right notes he hit, especially when you have the later versions to compare to.

In fairness, the climax of both Holland movies is him all on his own. Homecoming he’s in his homemade suit, Far From Home relies on him leaning on his own senses and not any suit gadget to win.

 

[Dark Raven]

In fairness, the climax of both Holland movies is him all on his own. Homecoming he’s in his homemade suit, Far From Home relies on him leaning on his own senses and not any suit gadget to win.

I'd want all 3 Spider-Men for the climax of No Way Home though and not for Holland all on his own to fight the Sinister Six.

 

[mclay18]

100% in character for Michael Giacchino to homage old themes from past nostalgic properties. Whether he's allowed to do so is another matter though.

Sony owns all the Spider-Man scores, so there won’t be any problems using them in the film.

The big question is whether Sony is willing to pay several composers’ license fees so the themes can be used in Giacchino’s score album release. That’s why there was never an official score release of Chris Young’s SM-3 score— Young’s score used Elfman’s themes extensively and Sony didn’t want to shell out the extra money.

 

[Drizzle]

Sony owns all the Spider-Man scores, so there won’t be any problems using them in the film.

The big question is whether Sony is willing to pay several composers’ license fees so the themes can be used in Giacchino’s score album release. That’s why there was never an official score release of Chris Young’s SM-3 score— Young’s score used Elfman’s themes extensively and Sony didn’t want to shell out the extra money.

Let's do a head count. They'd have to pay:

Elfman for the main themes (Spidey, Goblin, Ock)
Christopher Young if they use his Sandman theme
The estate of James Horner if they use any of his work from TASM
Hans Zimmer if they use his stuff from TASM2, like Electro's theme

I think (hope) that they'd pony up. Honestly if they used a new theme for Garfield's Spider-Man I wouldn't have an issue with it since he had a different one in each film he was in unless they really wanted to pay tribute to Horner, but Elfman's themes are an absolute must. They're probably the most iconic of any Marvel movie in history after The Avengers.

 

[Pablo Parker]

Another thing when you are watching the Raimi movies, Peter never ever loses sight of why he's doing what he does. Uncle Ben's influence is always there. Those movies never let you forget the impact his death had on Peter..

I LOVE Spider-man 2. But I don´t know about that... The characterization in the Raimi films is kind of messy sometimes. Every time I rewatch it, I hate the scene where the two muggers are beating the sh*t out of a guy in a alley. Peter just turns his back on him. Like "well... not my problem anymore!". I mean, turning his back on a crime is literally how his uncle died. He surely is not thinking about uncle Ben in that moment. I understand that, thematically, it makes sense in the movie. And the film is a nice revision of the Spider-man No More story from the comics... But it goes against the character of Peter Parker SO much that I just like to pretend that scene doesn´t exist.

 

[CadeSkywalker28]

It's good that it's a spider-verse movie because the music from the two previous movies was very poor.
Both Elfman and Zimmer have created many great themes.

I love this one from TASM2. Pure horror.

 

[The Joker]

I LOVE Spider-man 2. But I don´t know about that... The characterization in the Raimi films is kind of messy sometimes. Every time I rewatch it, I hate the scene where the two muggers are beating the sh*t out of a guy in a alley. Peter just turns his back on him. Like "well... not my problem anymore!". I mean, turning his back on a crime is literally how his uncle died. He surely is not thinking about uncle Ben in that moment. I understand that, thematically, it makes sense in the movie. And the film is a nice revision of the Spider-man No More story from the comics... But it goes against the character of Peter Parker SO much that I just like to pretend that scene doesn´t exist.

The look of conflict on his face as he walks away from the mugging shows exactly that he is thinking of Uncle Ben. He is not walking away with "That's not my problem" look on his face at all. He has that dream about Uncle Ben earlier in the movie where he tearfully tells him he's Spider-Man no more. He turns his back on the crime and he feels awful about it. Then later in the movie he steps up and saves the little girl in the burning building. Then he finds out that someone else died in there anyway.

Its like damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. That's Peter's conflict in the movie - "Am I not supposed to have what I want? What I need? What am I supposed to do?".

 

[The Joker]

In fairness, the climax of both Holland movies is him all on his own. Homecoming he’s in his homemade suit, Far From Home relies on him leaning on his own senses and not any suit gadget to win.

I want him to get to a point where he's on his own all the time throughout the whole movie. Relying on nothing but himself to win.

 

[Pablo Parker]

The look of conflict on his face as he walks away from the mugging shows exactly that he is thinking of Uncle Ben. He is not walking away with "That's not my problem" look on his face at all. He has that dream about Uncle Ben earlier in the movie where he tearfully tells him he's Spider-Man no more. He turns his back on the crime and he feels awful about it. Then later in the movie he steps up and saves the little girl in the burning building. Then he finds out that someone else died in there anyway.

Its like damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. That's Peter's conflict in the movie - "Am I not supposed to have what I want? What I need? What am I supposed to do?".

Yeah, I get that. That´s also a conflict that he has had in the comics and, well, in every movie. That´s classic Spidey. Still, the fact that he does nothing at all... that stings!

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, I get that. That´s also a conflict that he has had in the comics and, well, in every movie. That´s classic Spidey. Still, the fact that he does nothing at all... that stings!

Well yeah its not meant to be a feel good moment. Not for Peter or the audience.

 

[Pablo Parker]

Well yeah its not meant to be a feel good moment. Not for Peter or the audience.

Totally! I just don´t agree with that way of portraying Peter.

 

[The Joker]

Totally! I just don´t agree with that way of portraying Peter.

I don't see a problem with it. He's given up being Spider-Man so he's turning his back on his responsibility. That's how the Spider-Man no more story goes. Its no different to him sitting back and doing nothing when all sorts of crime is going on out there that he could be stopping. Not to mention a super villain on the loose, too.

 

[Arachnerd]

Joker, I'm getting major dejá vu from your last post and I don't know why. Feel like I've read this exact exchange before lol

 

[Pablo Parker]

Actually, I guess the problem I have is with how the scene is set up. He is watching the mugging from a street in plain daylight. We asume it´s a crowded street because before he sees the muggers, he just crossed paths with a couple of girls if I remember correctly...? The whole thing is set up un a way that doesn´t work so well. Like any decent bystander could just yell at the guys. Do something so they don´t beat up that guy. They could have written or shot the scene in a way that Pete doesn´t look like a complete and total a**hole. Maybe I´m biased because actually every time I´ve watched the film with people who are not *fans*, they always comment on ho Peter is being a d*ick in that scene.
Also, and I´m just thinking about it as I write (sorry if I´m not being clear)... It makes even less sense to me because in the script they have already come up with a way to justify the fact that Peter stops being Spider-man. The whole deal with him losing his powers perfectly serves that purpose. In the film, he loses his powers firts, and then considers not being Spider-man. That way the audience won´t think he is just being selfish.

Anyway! It´s just a little scene. No big deal! I just bored myself for making an argument about a really cool film from 2004. This thread is about how cool is that Maguire is coming back. So don´t mind me!

 

[The Joker]

Joker, I'm getting major dejá vu from your last post and I don't know why. Feel like I've read this exact exchange before lol

You've been here nearly 11 years now. So I'd bet good money you have seen me talk about this at some point before. Probably several times. Every discussion I have these days about older movies I've probably had countless times before over the years.

It happens. There's only so much to discuss about each movie. Conversation topics tend to repeat. But they are usually always fun discussions to have.

Actually, I guess the problem I have is with how the scene is set up. He is watching the mugging from a street in plain daylight. We asume it´s a crowded street because before he sees the muggers, he just crossed paths with a couple of girls if I remember correctly...? The whole thing is set up un a way that doesn´t work so well. Like any decent bystander could just yell at the guys. Do something so they don´t beat up that guy. They could have written or shot the scene in a way that Pete doesn´t look like a complete and total a**hole. Maybe I´m biased because actually every time I´ve watched the film with people who are not *fans*, they always comment on ho Peter is being a d*ick in that scene.
Also, and I´m just thinking about it as I write (sorry if I´m not being clear)... It makes even less sense to me because in the script they have already come up with a way to justify the fact that Peter stops being Spider-man. The whole deal with him losing his powers perfectly serves that purpose. In the film, he loses his powers firts, and then considers not being Spider-man. That way the audience won´t think he is just being selfish.

Anyway! It´s just a little scene. No big deal! I just bored myself for making an argument about a really cool film form 2004. This thread is about how cool is that Maguire is coming back. So don´t mind me!

No I get where you're coming from. Its just for me its no different to him sitting at home doing his homework or going to watch MJ's play when he could be out there stopping dozens of muggings and other crimes, or hunting down Doc Ock. Like earlier in the movie when he first goes to see MJ's play he misses it because he chooses to stop the two armed thugs in the car. Had he given up being Spider-Man he'd have ignored them and just kept on going to the theater. That's one of the brilliant things about Spider-Man 2. It showed the effect of Peter's choices.

I think that scene with the mugging just hammered home exactly the grave implications of what Peter has chosen to do giving up being Spider-Man. This is the kind of thing that he is letting happen by turning his back on it. The scene with the Doctor basically said he's losing his powers because its all in his head because mentally and emotionally he doesn't want to be Spider-Man any more. He has a choice.

It all comes full circle at the end when he chooses to be Spider-Man again. And they brilliantly reflect that with Doc Ock's story arc. They both were being irresponsible so they could make their dreams happen. But in the end they both take responsibility and do what's right. Its why Peter was able to repeat the same words Aunt May had said to him back to Ock.

Its these layers that make SM-2 so good.

 

[Pablo Parker]

Still doesn´t quite work for me. But It worked for you, and it´s also one of the best comic book movies, so they clearly did something right !

 

[henzINNIT]

I get that. Raimi's broad style is a near perfect fit for Spider-Man in my opinion, but there are moments when that approach works less effectively. Peter in the comics can have endless internal struggles via text boxes but in film you need to show Peter physically refusing the call to action. Raimi stages this scene in his usual way, super directly and dramatically, like a living cartoon. The problem is that this concept is boiled down to such an extreme that Peter's decision looks extra selfish. He's standing right next to a guy being attacked; comically close, and could have done anything in that moment to intervene, but he does nothing.

It's not something that troubles me too much. I love how ridiculous Raimi's Spider-Man was, but I definitely understand the issue with that particular scene.

 

[Eggyman]

I maybe didn't get it as much when it came out, but it's just a scene of him stopping himself from being the hero boiled down to an obvious and accessible scenario. Maybe that's the issue. You could do the same thing a hundred different ways - Peter turning his back on someone in need and seeing how he can live with that. Spoiler: he can't.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I LOVE Spider-man 2. But I don´t know about that... The characterization in the Raimi films is kind of messy sometimes. Every time I rewatch it, I hate the scene where the two muggers are beating the sh*t out of a guy in a alley. Peter just turns his back on him. Like "well... not my problem anymore!". I mean, turning his back on a crime is literally how his uncle died. He surely is not thinking about uncle Ben in that moment. I understand that, thematically, it makes sense in the movie. And the film is a nice revision of the Spider-man No More story from the comics... But it goes against the character of Peter Parker SO much that I just like to pretend that scene doesn´t exist.

The look on his face says "Oh no, I can't help that poor guy" more.
The hotdog scene before it has the facial expression; "I've gotta help"

But then he forces himself to ignore it with a "Not my problem anymore", even though he couldn't get along with that sentiment.

 

[The Caped Knight]

In fairness, the climax of both Holland movies is him all on his own. Homecoming he’s in his homemade suit, Far From Home relies on him leaning on his own senses and not any suit gadget to win.

I was about to say that Tom Holland's Peter Parker definitely gets his own share of trial and tribulation in the climax battle where he must rely on his own strength and cunning fortitude.

His fight with the Vulture was death defying as he had no assistance. He was in a makeshift costume that got torn apart, yet he fought on.


His fight with Mysterio he had an upgraded suit but no a.i. assistance, and even in fact he took on quite a bit of damage.

 

[CadeSkywalker28]

Which does not change the fact that he still has a super advanced suit and to be honest I am bored with these pseudo technologies in the MCU, Iron Man should have it, but not the rest, even Black Panther had the perfect suit in Civil War and they had to make some exaggerated super suit in his solo movie.

In the case of Spider-Man, even the theme of the movie was inconsistent, because it was about Spider-Man being able to rely on himself and yet at the end of the movie Tony offers him a new super iron suit, and he refuses and takes this slightly less advanced super suit ... Great lesson.