Comics Wizard #204 Spidey (BND) Debate Article

[Themanofbat]

I find she's not real, so it's ok.

Heh... ya got me there... lol.

 

[shinlyle]

Well, when Marvel & DC dole out as many bucks as they do for advertising, it tends to make things a tad biased in their favour.

Oh, I know. Comics is one of the many fields where you can buy an audience. I just remember a better day when Wizard really threw the spotlight on creator-owned books by creators that had NOT worked at Marvel or DC beforehand.

I understand not wanting to piss them off, but it would be nice to see a *little* more objectivity when reporting upon the stories and works of the "big two".

 

[Styleshift]

However, unlike the Clone Saga, which had told us that the Spidey we'd been reading since 1975 was a clone, OMD just focused on the real deal. And as demonstrated in ASM #569, there's a logical explanation for Pete's identity being secret again, one that he was a part of, and I would assume doesn't include Mephisto. So these unanswered question could be providing us with some pretty cool answers...

Not trying to argue with you TMOB, but omd is doing the same as the clone saga. telling us the marriage never really happened is the same thing as telling us that the peter we've been reading about for years is a clone.

they aren't in the same level of intensity most definitely. but its still retconning a long standing part of the spider-books. even people that casually read the books know peter and mj are married. they are the most famous couple in comics next to supes and lois.

as for the secret of the remasking...lets just hope we aren't waiting over 8 months for them to reveal "its magic...we don't have to explain it."

It should be one heck of a story if they are with holding this info this long...

 

[WolfCypher]

Oh, I know. Comics is one of the many fields where you can buy an audience. I just remember a better day when Wizard really threw the spotlight on creator-owned books by creators that had NOT worked at Marvel or DC beforehand.

I understand not wanting to piss them off, but it would be nice to see a *little* more objectivity when reporting upon the stories and works of the "big two".

The early years when Wizard catered to everyone equally and gave newcomer Image and tiny titan Valiant a lot of exposure? Now that Wizard is the mainstream magazine for comics, they only cater to the mainstream comic companies.

 

[shinlyle]

The early years when Wizard catered to everyone equally and gave newcomer Image and tiny titan Valiant a lot of exposure? Now that Wizard is the mainstream magazine for comics, they only cater to the mainstream comic companies.

That's the one.

Remember when Wizard went all out pimping "SCUD: The Disposable Assasin"? How about when they constantly covered the progress on Cerebus? Remember when they started raving about 30 Days of Night? Then...here comes the crises, wars, and everythign else. I miss the good old days.

 

[Themanofbat]

Not trying to argue with you TMOB, but omd is doing the same as the clone saga. telling us the marriage never really happened is the same thing as telling us that the peter we've been reading about for years is a clone.

Oh, I realize that they are very similar... but I think a lot of people had a harder time with a "fake" Spider-Man than a marriage begone.

Truth be told, with a few exceptions, the marriage not happening is not that big a deal with some people (Captivated being one of the few...), but it's the simple fact that Peter gave up andmade a deal with Mephisto.

I believe THAT's what is behind most people's anti BND sentiments...

It's unfortunate that they can't look over that, because I feel that I'm reading some decent Spider-Man comics for the first time in years, and with that comment in ASM #569, it makes me feel even better for the future stories as well as the "potential" continuity screw-ups.

 

[Styleshift]

Oh, I realize that they are very similar... but I think a lot of people had a harder time with a "fake" Spider-Man than a marriage begone.

Truth be told, with a few exceptions, the marriage not happening is not that big a deal with some people (Captivated being one of the few...), but it's the simple fact that Peter gave up andmade a deal with Mephisto.

I believe THAT's what is behind most people's anti BND sentiments...

It's unfortunate that they can't look over that, because I feel that I'm reading some decent Spider-Man comics for the first time in years, and with that comment in ASM #569, it makes me feel even better for the future stories as well as the "potential" continuity screw-ups.

you hit the nail on the head.
It's like if Superman were to kill a normal citizen. fans don't want to see their fav. character act horribly out of character.

I'm reading NWTD (which is pretty damn good IMO) and I figure it's all in hands of the writers and their talent. not the direction.

of course people are uneasy about this change.
It's like making batman campy again.

they've moved so far away from this spidey that people have become used to the married spidey. as they will become used to a single spidey again in a couple of years if they hold out like they say they will.

but oh well, as long as their is a good spidey story i will be along for the ride. but i'm going to avoid buying the regular issue's as of now....because I feel BND just isn't for me.

it's obvious marvel will annouce their reveals before they actually make a move, and thats the only part that interests me. so why waste my money on these filler issues?

 

[farmernudie]

Spider-Man never having been spider-man was/is JUST as annoying as this deal with the devil to alter history so that MJ and him never even married.

Both cheapen everything we know to be true and that happened and that we read all those/these years.

What will it take for Joe and Marvel to see that things are not all roses and that people want regular spidey back??

Taking multiple years to fix a poorly contrived retcon, like Clone Saga, stretches things out way too long and deals too much damage to the character that Joe is supposedly trying to "fix".

MArvel, if they were intelligent at all, would take the customers for being intelligent...should go back to the end of BIB and start over, like tomorrow, and pretend all this OMD/BND alterante world stuff and dealing for Aunt May never happened. Immediately.

 

[WolfCypher]

Oh, I realize that they are very similar... but I think a lot of people had a harder time with a "fake" Spider-Man than a marriage begone.

Truth be told, with a few exceptions, the marriage not happening is not that big a deal with some people (Captivated being one of the few...), but it's the simple fact that Peter gave up andmade a deal with Mephisto.

I believe THAT's what is behind most people's anti BND sentiments...

It's unfortunate that they can't look over that, because I feel that I'm reading some decent Spider-Man comics for the first time in years, and with that comment in ASM #569, it makes me feel even better for the future stories as well as the "potential" continuity screw-ups.

In other words, the current status of ASM is acceptable, but how Marvel got us here is not.

 

[Themanofbat]

In other words, the current status of ASM is acceptable, but how Marvel got us here is not.

Sure... even most of the BND fans hated the way OMD played out... but we like what we see currently...

 

[Donald Thomas]

Sure... even most of the BND fans hated the way OMD played out... but we like what we see currently...

Aloha,
Interesting poll.
I wonder, how many people think that had Aunt May died, Peter would have gone back and KILLED the Kingpin?
Spidey rules

 

[kguillou]

I dont think Peter would've killed him, but i do think the kingpin would never be able to walk again. lol

 

[WolfCypher]

I dont think Peter would've killed him, but i do think the kingpin would never be able to walk again. lol

I didn't think Peter would ever make a deal with Satan for any reason whatsoever.

He's not Spider-Man, he's Johnny Blaze.

 

[Styleshift]

I think peter would have killed him...
If he's willing to make a deal with mephisto, I really don't expect him to do the right thing as a hero would in his past life. they've totally ruined that Peter for me now that i think about it.

The question is would BND pete kill the kingpin? my answer is no.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Oh, I realize that they are very similar... but I think a lot of people had a harder time with a "fake" Spider-Man than a marriage begone.

Truth be told, with a few exceptions, the marriage not happening is not that big a deal with some people (Captivated being one of the few...), but it's the simple fact that Peter gave up andmade a deal with Mephisto.

I believe THAT's what is behind most people's anti BND sentiments...

It's unfortunate that they can't look over that, because I feel that I'm reading some decent Spider-Man comics for the first time in years, and with that comment in ASM #569, it makes me feel even better for the future stories as well as the "potential" continuity screw-ups.

Aloha,
I never read Faust but here's some info on the subject.
Goethe's Faust

Main article: Goethe's Faust

Goethe's Faust complicates the simple Christian moral of the original legend. A hybrid between a play and an extended poem, Goethe's two part "closet drama" is epic in scope. It gathers together references from Christian, medieval, Roman, eastern and Hellenic poetry, philosophy and literature; ending in a Faust who is saved, carried aloft to heaven, as Mephistopheles looks on.

The legend of Faust was an obsession of Goethe's. The composition and refinement of his own version of the legend occupied him for over sixty years (though not continuously). The final version, published after his death, is recognized as a great work of German literature.

The story concerns the fate of Faust in his quest for the true essence of life ("was die Welt im Innersten zusammenhält"). Frustrated with learning and the limits to his knowledge and power, he attracts the attention of the Devil (represented by Mephistopheles), who agrees to serve Faust until the moment he attains the zenith of human happiness, at which point Mephistopheles may take his soul. Faust is pleased with the deal, as he believes the moment will never come.

In the first part, Mephistopheles leads Faust through experiences that culminate in a lustful and destructive relationship with an innocent and nubile woman named Gretchen. Gretchen and her family are destroyed by Mephistopheles' deceptions and Faust's desires and actions. The story ends in tragedy as Gretchen is saved and Faust is left in shame.

The second part begins with the spirits of the earth forgiving Faust (and the rest of mankind) and progresses into rich allegorical poetry. Faust and his devil pass through the world of politics and the world of the classical gods, and meet with Helen of Troy (the personification of beauty). Finally, having succeeded in taming the very forces of war and nature Faust experiences a single moment of happiness.


The devil Mephistopheles, trying to grab Faust's soul when he dies, is frustrated as the Lord intervenes – recognizing the value of Faust's unending striving.
I think this may be the way that Marvel gets out of the whole deal with the devil thing. The marriage is still going to be over but MJ and Peter may be able to get back together and even remember the full events of OMD.
Spidey rules

 

[Donald Thomas]

I think peter would have killed him...
If he's willing to make a deal with mephisto, I really don't expect him to do the right thing as a hero would in his past life. they've totally ruined that Peter for me now that i think about it.

The question is would BND pete kill the kingpin? my answer is no.

Aloha,
Go back and read Back in Black-Amazing Spider-Man.Would Peter have made good on his promise to come back and KILL Kingpin had Aunt May died? And if he did,with the world knowing his identity would the marriage between he and MJ have stayed the same?
Spidey rules

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

The early years when Wizard catered to everyone equally and gave newcomer Image and tiny titan Valiant a lot of exposure? Now that Wizard is the mainstream magazine for comics, they only cater to the mainstream comic companies.

I remember when they would trash stuff they didnt like...now they seem to stay neutral...anyone remember that?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I remember when they would trash stuff they didnt like...now they seem to stay neutral...anyone remember that?

Remember? I remember how pissed I was that they basically pressured Marvel into killing Ben Reilly, and for years after would gloat about his death and the hand they had in it. As a huge Reilly fan I hated that rag. This was back when Wizard actually had pull with fans and the direction comic companies took, before internet forums really took over and Wizard became obsolete. I haven't picked up a Wizard in almost a decade. Can't even imagine how bad it is now.

If they wanted opinion based pieces, they should have allowed a point-counterpoint thing. Had one Reilly fan argue with an anti-Reilly person to make it balanced. But it was pretty much all anti-Reilly. That's what really got me. It was like the FOXNews of comics.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Remember? I remember how pissed I was that they basically pressured Marvel into killing Ben Reilly, and for years after would gloat about his death and the hand they had in it. As a huge Reilly fan I hated that rag. This was back when Wizard actually had pull with fans and the direction comic companies took, before internet forums really took over and Wizard became obsolete. I haven't picked up a Wizard in almost a decade. Can't even imagine how bad it is now.

If they wanted opinion based pieces, they should have allowed a point-counterpoint thing. Had one Reilly fan argue with an anti-Reilly person to make it balanced. But it was pretty much all anti-Reilly. That's what really got me. It was like the FOXNews of comics.

They actually DO a point-counter point thing these days...a bit more "fair and balanced"...

 

[Styleshift]

Aloha,
Go back and read Back in Black-Amazing Spider-Man.Would Peter have made good on his promise to come back and KILL Kingpin had Aunt May died? And if he did,with the world knowing his identity would the marriage between he and MJ have stayed the same?
Spidey rules

I did read it.

I was stating my opinion about the outcome had things continued down that hill.
I feel Peter would have made good on his promise had OMD not happened.
the guy had nothing to lose at that point really...they took his "mother" away from him.

still that doesnt excuse him making a deal with Mephisto... Peter knows what this guy is about.

he could have done so much damage instead....just like with Ghost rider.

oh well...

 

[ragingdemon155]

From those who have posted before me, how are you guys so surprised by the Ultimate Spider-Man > ASM poll? USM has its stability. They haven't pulled any ultra-crap-life-changing-we-know-what-you-fans-need-more-that-you-do event, and hopefully never will. USM is fun to read, and its also what Marvel wanted, but in a good way:

Peter in High School, dating MJ, like the classic 1960s SM they're trying to replicate in BND. At least here (USM), it makes sense.

I second this.

At the moment USM is levels about ASM. It has been for some time now. Bendis has a clear cut direction with USM and knows what he wants to do with the character. It really doesn't seem like Marvel knows what to do with Spider-man in regular continuity.

 

[Styleshift]

Aloha,
I never read Faust but here's some info on the subject.
Goethe's Faust

Main article: Goethe's Faust

Goethe's Faust complicates the simple Christian moral of the original legend. A hybrid between a play and an extended poem, Goethe's two part "closet drama" is epic in scope. It gathers together references from Christian, medieval, Roman, eastern and Hellenic poetry, philosophy and literature; ending in a Faust who is saved, carried aloft to heaven, as Mephistopheles looks on.

The legend of Faust was an obsession of Goethe's. The composition and refinement of his own version of the legend occupied him for over sixty years (though not continuously). The final version, published after his death, is recognized as a great work of German literature.

The story concerns the fate of Faust in his quest for the true essence of life ("was die Welt im Innersten zusammenhält"). Frustrated with learning and the limits to his knowledge and power, he attracts the attention of the Devil (represented by Mephistopheles), who agrees to serve Faust until the moment he attains the zenith of human happiness, at which point Mephistopheles may take his soul. Faust is pleased with the deal, as he believes the moment will never come.

In the first part, Mephistopheles leads Faust through experiences that culminate in a lustful and destructive relationship with an innocent and nubile woman named Gretchen. Gretchen and her family are destroyed by Mephistopheles' deceptions and Faust's desires and actions. The story ends in tragedy as Gretchen is saved and Faust is left in shame.

The second part begins with the spirits of the earth forgiving Faust (and the rest of mankind) and progresses into rich allegorical poetry. Faust and his devil pass through the world of politics and the world of the classical gods, and meet with Helen of Troy (the personification of beauty). Finally, having succeeded in taming the very forces of war and nature Faust experiences a single moment of happiness.


The devil Mephistopheles, trying to grab Faust's soul when he dies, is frustrated as the Lord intervenes – recognizing the value of Faust's unending striving.
I think this may be the way that Marvel gets out of the whole deal with the devil thing. The marriage is still going to be over but MJ and Peter may be able to get back together and even remember the full events of OMD.
Spidey rules

Good catch.

 

[farmernudie]

I agree it is weird that it is almost a tie on wanting the organic webshooters or invented ones...with organic just barely ahead of the other.

Also, i agree with the poster on here who said at least Ultimate has a direction and that it feels like they don't know where they want to take Amazing in, except to copy ultimate kinda.

Lastly, i don't think Pete would actually kill Kingpin if Aunt May had died...not in his character....if written PROPERLY...they key word here. Same as Pete (nor MJ) would NOT deal with the devil if written in character.

Sadly, Marvel is NOT held to writing their characters within character any more...and will publish anything to reach an agenda of an EIC.

 

[Themanofbat]

Sadly, Marvel is NOT held to writing their characters within character any more...and will publish anything to reach an agenda of an EIC.

.... which is also the agenda of his bosses, Marvel Comics Inc, which we already know wanted to be rid of the Spider-Marriage as early as 1993.

It's quick and easy to simply lay the blame on JQ, but he has people that he has to answer to, and he has to follow their orders as well.

 

[farmernudie]

It's all good and fun to say that Joe has to follow orders and all TMOB, and i agree with you in general principle....HOWEVER....for over two years I've read all the Joe quotes and snippets everywhere, how he can't sleep at night due to thinking about having them married and all the other nonsense he personally shared about his life and thoughts about marriage.

Not ONCE have i read or seen any proof that the board of directors mandated to Joe a "single spider-man".

Many boards do dictate and micromanage their managers and so on,...while there are just as many boards who let their bosses make the decisions and dn't care just so the bottom line line of the company isn't suffering..or then they'd get involved.

So, when i talk about Joe...i am talking about the TON of stuff he has personally related to anti-marriage the past years.

And yes, previous EIC's and writers have also wanted a single spider-man.
But i have heard others support the marriage also in the past and present.

I have NOTHING to go by, in stating this is the BOARDS fault, as you say....because there is no proof of that...only speculation on our parts. Who really knows if they care one way or another on it. I doubt the board members give a fig about what hero is married or which is single, which one flys, or which one enjoys ice cream.

Back to the poll...........I wonder if BND has sullied and ruined the opinions of for those that were pro-mechanical web-shooters previously to the point that now people would rather just go back and have the organics?