Wolverine or Namor?Who's more bad@$$?

[Tropico]

Although I don't share you're brother's bias, and I do agree, i did some research on Nuke myself and Wolverine's role was less then benign, I still think Wolverine is/was a very cool character. I'd also like to point out that if they are constantly frying his short term memory and implanting false ones, as they seem to do, the Wolverine torturing Nuke is not the same man as me and you're brother enjoy. That is what Wolverine is trying to atone for.

By the way, do not read Barry Windsor-Smith's (God bless that man. Him, Jack kirby and Stan Lee) Weapon X, which details the implantation of the adamantium into Wolverine's bones. That is defiently some of the most gruesome stuff I've seen in my entire life, but is extremely telling. I personally love it, but more graphic comics have been written only few and far between. If you thought Nuke was bad, you probably haven't seen anything yet.

Also, Thanks Tropico for clarifying that stuff for us.

No prob. I wish I could have been more specific, but I don't have the issue with me, I read them from my friend.

I actually have the Marvel Comic Presents issues of his "origin". They were awesome, I've always loved Barry's art. I felt kinda cheated because we didn't get to find out the origin then (yes, I bought them as they were coming out), but it was still cool to find out how he got the adamantium.

In regards to the brainwashing, the stuff that we were shown recently he only got his memories erased, they didn't give him new ones after they were done. It was more like a safety measure for them so he wouldn't remember the stuff he had done.

 

[Horhey]

No prob. I wish I could have been more specific, but I don't have the issue with me, I read them from my friend.

I actually have the Marvel Comic Presents issues of his "origin". They were awesome, I've always loved Barry's art. I felt kinda cheated because we didn't get to find out the origin then (yes, I bought them as they were coming out), but it was still cool to find out how he got the adamantium.

In regards to the brainwashing, the stuff that we were shown recently he only got his memories erased, they didn't give him new ones after they were done. It was more like a safety measure for them so he wouldn't remember the stuff he had done.

Incorrect. I just read issue #3 and Wolverine says he had no conrol over his mind, but that its still no excuse for all the people he killed. (including Nukes parents)

 

[Horrorfan]

Ok, sorry for the delay, computer problems (that will more than likely continue for a while). The way they got a hold of Nuke as a kid was by manipulating the family. The mother became abusive and they had another woman mess with Nuke's mind so he would hate his mother, Nuke ended up killing his own mother. And by kid, I don't mean a teen, he was younger than that. Wolverine was more involved with Nuke's dad and told him he knew about his cheating and what he would do to him and Nuke's dad ended up blowing his own brains out. It was also revealed that Wolverine was used to torture Nuke as he grew up, they specifically mention Vietnam. I have a friend who'd like a brother to me who loves Wolverine, he doesn't see all of this as being that bad considering he was working for a shady organization. To him, this makes him even more noble because of what he has to atone for. I don't have the same bias as he does and frankly was sickened by what happened, I'm probably imagining it too much as if it was a real case and how monstrous it sounds. I'll probably be called a hippy ***** for it.

In regards to the brainwashing, they've shown how they used to erase his memories by inserting 2 metal needles through the sides of his head and running an electrical current through them to basically fry his short term memory. They don't mention him getting hypnotized nor brainwashed to perform specific actions.

I wasn't calling anyone a ***** for unjustified killings....but when he went after hydra for killing the kid, that was a justified killing, and thats the one I was talking about.....I thought everyone meant that one?


Do you know why he tortured nuke? I mean like waht was the mission/goal team x was sent on? and do i take it right that the parents werent exactly good, innocent people?

and I am inclined to believe wolvie didn't have full control....it would just seem too out of character for him. He has a dark side but I've never known him to just kill innocents for no reason...

 

[Horhey]

I wasn't calling anyone a ***** for unjustified killings....but when he went after hydra for killing the kid, that was a justified killing, and thats the one I was talking about.....I thought everyone meant that one?


Do you know why he tortured nuke? I mean like waht was the mission/goal team x was sent on? and do i take it right that the parents werent exactly good, innocent people?

and I am inclined to believe wolvie didn't have full control....it would just seem too out of character for him. He has a dark side but I've never known him to just kill innocents for no reason...

I just reread Origins #3 and it clearly states Wolverine was being controlled.

 

[Mad Bull]

Lol, you need to start saving your allowance for a scanner.

 

[Horhey]

Lol, you need to start saving your allowance for a scanner.

Or I could just take a picture with the flash turned off.

 

[Mad Bull]

Or I could just take a picture with the flash turned off.

Quite so, t:

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Or I could just take a picture with the flash turned off.

You just gonna say it, or you gonna do it?

 

[Horhey]

You just gonna say it, or you gonna do it?

I have to go to my moms house. Its her camera.

 

[Son_of_W]

I'm absolutely horrid with computers, but I've just gotten few volumes of comics that I'd like to scan and then post pictures of (more specifically, post on this thread). I wanna' know if anyone knows a website where I can just upload the pics to be shown and then leave or something. Finding what you need on the net is more my Uncle's domain then mine.

 

[Horhey]

I'm absolutely horrid with computers, but I've just gotten few volumes of comics that I'd like to scan and then post pictures of (more specifically, post on this thread). I wanna' know if anyone knows a website where I can just upload the pics to be shown and then leave or something. Finding what you need on the net is more my Uncle's domain then mine.

I use http://photobucket.com/

 

[Son_of_W]

thanks

 

[Tropico]

Incorrect. I just read issue #3 and Wolverine says he had no conrol over his mind, but that its still no excuse for all the people he killed. (including Nukes parents)

Well, I got a chance to read it again and didn't see any part where he says that. In fact, he even asked if a kid was worth all that trouble and he was told to not ask questions and do his job. His comments to Charlie (Nuke) when he picks him don't seem like those of a mind controlled zombie. Tell me what panels and pages he says what you say, Horhey, so I can look it up and maybe even post it up.

 

[Horhey]

Well, I got a chance to read it again and didn't see any part where he says that. In fact, he even asked if a kid was worth all that trouble and he was told to not ask questions and do his job. His comments to Charlie (Nuke) when he picks him don't seem like those of a mind controlled zombie. Tell me what panels and pages he says what you say, Horhey, so I can look it up and maybe even post it up.

Ok, I dont have the comic in front of me but its where hes thinking about the people hes killed and he says - paraphrasing - 'No excuse though. Neither is the fact that I wasnt in control of my mind. I still killed those people.'

 

[Norkie]

Ok, I dont have the comic in front of me but its where hes thinking about the people hes killed and he says - paraphrasing - 'No excuse though. Neither is the fact that I wasnt in control of my mind. I still killed those people.'

Well that parts not in #3 it is in #2 and about the 10th page in.

 

[Horhey]

Well that parts not in #3 it is in #2 and about the 10th page in.

Yea, your right, cuz its where hes having a Vietnam war flashback, before he confronts Nuke.

 

[Tropico]

Yeah, it's issue two where he says that he wasn't in control of his mind MOST of the time. He also says that he went from dog to dog handler which suggests, IMO, that he did have some autonomous control. Anyway, it's up to speculation at which points he did have control or not unless we get told directly. To me, the mission to get the Carbonadium will always be an example where his will was intact since he opposed the mission.

 

[Horhey]

Yeah, it's issue two where he says that he wasn't in control of his mind MOST of the time. He also says that he went from dog to dog handler which suggests, IMO, that he did have some autonomous control. Anyway, it's up to speculation at which points he did have control or not unless we get told directly. To me, the mission to get the Carbonadium will always be an example where his will was intact since he opposed the mission.

Dude, do you relize how out of character Logan would be if he were a cold blooded killer? Doesnt make any sense. Now all of a sudden hes a good person with a moral code? Why do you think Sabretooth killed that woman as a way to get obediance out of Logan and Maverick in issue #8? If Logan was cold blooded why would he care if Sabretooth killed an innocent woman? Its clear. When he was killing people he was being controlled.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Dude, do you relize how out of character Logan would be if he were a cold blooded killer? Doesnt make any sense. Now all of a sudden hes a good person with a moral code? Why do you think Sabretooth killed that woman as a way to get obediance out of Logan and Maverick in issue #8? If Logan was cold blooded why would he care if Sabretooth killed an innocent woman? Its clear. When he was killing people he was being controlled.

He kind of IS a cold blooded killer. Nitro didn't really have a chance against him. And killing someone who can't really defend themself, is killing in cold blood. =/ Well, he tried, but he was GOING to do it.

 

[Mad Bull]

He kind of IS a cold blooded killer. Nitro didn't really have a chance against him. And killing someone who can't really defend themself, is killing in cold blood. =/ Well, he tried, but he was GOING to do it.

He's pretty much going for the kill any time he draws his claws, no? Heh, I mean, it's not like "Hey, bub. I'm just gonna gut you a little bit."

 

[Tropico]

Dude, do you relize how out of character Logan would be if he were a cold blooded killer? Doesnt make any sense. Now all of a sudden hes a good person with a moral code? Why do you think Sabretooth killed that woman as a way to get obediance out of Logan and Maverick in issue #8? If Logan was cold blooded why would he care if Sabretooth killed an innocent woman? Its clear. When he was killing people he was being controlled.

I don't see how it'd be out of character considering where he worked. He wasn't all that nice when he joined the X-Men, it was after this that he started "taming the beast" more and more, as his character grew they made him more palatable to the hordes of people that were becoming his fans. You remind me of my friend; to him, Wolverine can do no wrong. He did bad things, but it wasn't his fault. Ever! That's his way of seeing it. I think it's a very naive point of view to think that Logan only did bad when he worked fo Dept. H or the Weapon X program and that it was always under mind control. We've seen evidence that it's second nature to him to kill, it makes sense considering all that he's been through.

I don't see Wolverine as a killer in the same sense as Sabretooth, I never even made the comparison. Frankly, I'm tired of the same statement made when you call Wolverine a killer, the Sabretooth comparison is inane. I'm not making stuff up when I call Wolverine a killer when he's said it himself in dozens of comics. If people want to gloss over this fact and concentrate on the good parts of the character only, it's their prerrogative; it doesn't taake away from the facts, though.

 

[Horhey]

Nevermind. This is silly....

 

[Tropico]

Exactly.

 

[Horhey]

He kind of IS a cold blooded killer. Nitro didn't really have a chance against him. And killing someone who can't really defend themself, is killing in cold blood. =/ Well, he tried, but he was GOING to do it.

He didnt kill Nitro. He spared him and killed the bigger fish instead.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, his attention was deterred, not so much, "You're free to go after killing those kids, small fry."