Women As Preachers

[C-$]

The whole "women preachers" thing still kind of befuddles me becuase I don't if it's a sin or The Bible says that it's not a sin. What's your opinion on "women as preachers".

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Umm women ought to be able to hold any job or position they wish to in America and I don't believe it's right for any organization to discriminate based on race, ethnicity or gender (or sexual orientation).

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Umm women ought to be able to hold any job or position they wish to in America and I don't believe it's right for any organization to discriminate based on race, ethnicity or gender (or sexual orientation).

Then why the hell won't they let me sign up for the Miss USA pageant?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Then why the hell won't they let me sign up for the Miss USA pageant?

Thats why they created Mr Universe, so start hitting the gym bud.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Thats why they created Mr Universe, so start hitting the gym bud.

Nevertheless, why can't I compete in the Miss USA pageant? Is it against their in-house rules?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Nevertheless, why can't I compete in the Miss USA pageant? Is it against their in-house rules?

Well a pageant to be fair is not a job, it's a contest.

 

[Sabretooth]

Don't they already preach enough???

 

[JewishHobbit]

Truthfully I'm not sure about this either. It's one of those questions that I bring up in church and get half hearted answers to. The bible talks about Men being the leaders of the church, but there are women preachers. Now I've never found where in th bible is says woman can be preachers, and most preachers these days that I've spoken with tell me that it no longer applies because the bible was writing for the women of those times... though they also say that the bible is written for everyone, then now and tomorrow. So when it comes to the topic of women preachers, spiritually I'll have to lean more toward no, they shouldn't. But I"m always open to change my mind on that if someone can show me where God says it's okay.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Well a pageant to be fair is not a job, it's a contest.

The principle behind it, however, is similar. In the pageant, there's a very serious reward at the end of the line - cash, scholarships, endorsements. Everyone may have a go at it. Except, that is, everyone who is not female. Such seemingly discriminatory in-house rule is widely accepted (celebrated, in fact), so why can't preaching?

In the Church Organisation, governed by, on the most part, the Bible, why can't such a rule be respected?

Why are the office bearers of National Organisation for Women all ladies? Are men not capable enough of championing their cause? Why aren't people making noise there?

The Church, like any other organisations, has rules. A non-Christian is not expected to understand nor approve of this particular rule. But a Christian is.

I say this with a caveat that I do not know if this 'no women preacher' thing is actually a rule. But I am saying that if it is, then it should be respected.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The principle behind it, however, is similar. In the pageant, there's a very serious reward at the end of the line - cash, scholarships, endorsements. Everyone may have a go at it. Except, that is, everyone who is not female. Such seemingly discriminatory in-house rule is widely accepted (celebrated, in fact), so why can't preaching?

In the Church Organisation, governed by, on the most part, the Bible, why can't such a rule be respected?

Why are the office bearers of National Organisation for Women all ladies? Are men not capable enough of championing their cause? Why aren't people making noise there?

The Church, like any other organisations, has rules. A non-Christian is not expected to understand nor approve of this particular rule. But a Christian is.

I say this with a caveat that I do not know if this 'no women preacher' thing is actually a rule. But I am saying that if it is, then it should be respected.

Because both the pagaent and the National Organization for Women have organizations of equal stature that employ or service everyone. A religion or private organization baring women from a specific position however is discrimination because it assumes because the person is of said gender they cannot perform said position. Both the things you mentioned are designed to service women whereas the latter is merely a position or job by which being qualified for said position ought to be the only criterion.

Also if you want to bring up why their are not any white male only organizations that because you cannot discriminate or make more organizations that service those already in power.

 

[tzarinna]

I'm still confused, I wasn't aware it was a rule and where it's based upon.

I do recall an angel telling Mary to go and preach the gospel (Jesus has risen)

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm still confused, I wasn't aware it was a rule and where it's based upon.

I do recall an angel telling Mary to go and preach the gospel (Jesus has risen)

Where was that at? I can't recall it. And I'm mostly thinking of old testiment rules not allowing women to preach. I know stuff changed after Jesus came, but I could never find where it changed for female preachers.

 

[rodhulk]

Where was that at? I can't recall it. And I'm mostly thinking of old testiment rules not allowing women to preach. I know stuff changed after Jesus came, but I could never find where it changed for female preachers.

Actually, you won't find it anywhere. It never happened, nor did the change of the sabbath from saturday to sunday ever take place in the Bible.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Because both the pagaent and the National Organization for Women have organizations of equal stature that employ or service everyone. A religion or private organization baring women from a specific position however is discrimination because it assumes because the person is of said gender they cannot perform said position. Both the things you mentioned are designed to service women whereas the latter is merely a position or job by which being qualified for said position ought to be the only criterion.

Bah. Some well-known restaurants openly employ gender-specific waitresses all the time. I bet I'll NEVER make it to the interview stage as a Hooters girl regardless of my years of experience waiting tables at hotels.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Where was that at? I can't recall it. And I'm mostly thinking of old testiment rules not allowing women to preach. I know stuff changed after Jesus came, but I could never find where it changed for female preachers.

People in this country who preach the Bible also don't have a ton of problems with not giving up all their humanly and monatary possessions (and it never says the love of money is the sin--it pretty much just says being rich makes it impossible for you to follow Jesus "camel fitting through eye of needle"). I don't see this as a giant leap for them.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Bah. Some well-known restaurants openly employ gender-specific waitresses all the time. I bet I'll NEVER make it to the interview stage as a Hooters girl regardless of my years of experience waiting tables at hotels.

Right but you fail to see the difference between dicriminating against women and discriminating against men. Men already hold a suffient amount of power in this country that for all intents and purposes they control it. It's impossible to discriminate against white males in this country. It is imparitive we have industry and organizations that service minorities, not imperitive to service the priveledged.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Right but you fail to see the difference between dicriminating against women and discriminating against men. Men already hold a suffient amount of power in this country that for all intents and purposes they control it. It's impossible to discriminate against white males in this country. It is imparitive we have industry and organizations that service minorities, not imperitive to service the priveledged.

Are we fighting for women's superiority or women's equality?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Are we fighting for women's superiority or women's equality?

Equality, the playing field in this country is far from level. Women, African Americans, Homosexuals and other minorities start out at a disadvantage that white males never will at this point in history (and from what it seems most of history as we've known it).

 

[tzarinna]

Where was that at? I can't recall it. And I'm mostly thinking of old testiment rules not allowing women to preach. I know stuff changed after Jesus came, but I could never find where it changed for female preachers.

Yeah, things change so much between the 2, and I don't really so much. I grew up in the church but didn't continue going for variuos reasons.*cough, heathen, cough*

I only took from it what I thought was intresting, such as the Mary and Angel thing. I have a very slective memory.

 

[rodhulk]

I'm still confused, I wasn't aware it was a rule and where it's based upon.

I do recall an angel telling Mary to go and preach the gospel (Jesus has risen)

The Bible makes it possible for a woman to go out and preach the gospel since all believers are to do so, but to be actual leaders in the church may be another question.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Equality, the playing field in this country is far from level. Women, African Americans, Homosexuals and other minorities start out at a disadvantage that white males never will at this point in history (and from what it seems most of history as we've known it).

In general, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. No organisation should discriminate against anyone for whatever reasons except that of the skills required for such employment.

But the Church is a rather unusual organisation. One with unique and, to those who believe, divine set of rules. If such a rule against women preachers do exist, it is that of a divine rule. And to force a religious organisation to abandon such divine rule displays an utter lack of disrespect. Freedom of religion should entail freedom of that particular religion to observe all of the rules therein without external political pressure.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

In general, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. No organisation should discriminate against anyone for whatever reasons except that of the skills required for such employment.

But the Church is a rather unusual organisation. One with unique and, to those who believe, divine set of rules. If such a rule against women preachers do exist, it is that of a divine rule. And to force a religious organisation to abandon such divine rule displays an utter lack of disrespect. Freedom of religion should entail freedom of that particular religion to observe all of the rules therein without external political pressure.

I disagree. Both religion and the United States hide behind this bastion of tolerance but both can be accreditted with egregious acts of intolerance. While you are correct a religion ought to be able to practice in silence the only criterion ought to be conversion. Just like the United States would not and should not allow a Religion to sacrifice humans, they should also not allow them to engage in the politics and practices that were allowed a hundred years ago, namely discrimination.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

I disagree. Both religion and the United States hide behind this bastion of tolerance but both can be accreditted with egregious acts of intolerance. While you are correct a religion ought to be able to practice in silence the only criterion ought to be conversion. Just like the United States would not and should not allow a Religion to sacrifice humans, they should also not allow them to engage in the politics and practices that were allowed a hundred years ago, namely discrimination.

But if such a rule does exist, it is not discrimination for the sake of discrimination. Christianity does not acknowledge homosexuality just because they hate gays. It's because the divine rule is that homosexuality is not allowed. Such is the case of women as preachers, though the status of women is much much much less damning than homosexuals in the eyes of the Church.

It is a set of divine rules that they have a right to adhere to.

Note, though, that the Church is not against any women, Christian or otherwise, to pursue the highest levels of employment anywhere else. In fact, such endeavour is encouraged.

However, when it comes to a position of 'divine appointment', for lack of a better term, the rules prevail. It has got nothing to do with 'male superiority/inadequacy' for the sake of 'quashing women under their feet and keeping them in kitchens and in beds'.

 

[Man-Thing]

Shadowboxing,

While it may be true that disallowing women as pastors is discrimination, I think it should be pointed out that if government intrusion would be really bad to remedy the situation. This is something that kind of bothers me as something I think will become legislation in the future.

The ultimate irony is that this mentality comes from those that "really don't want" the government to legislate morality (which is something that is done through the right wing (accused of anyway)). In turn they wish to use the government to legislate morality on churches.

I'm not saying you agree to this, but if it is overlooked, this will be a serious erosion of the first ammendment- by the state.

 

[Jonathan Archer]

Shadowboxing,

While it may be true that disallowing women as pastors is discrimination, I think it should be pointed out that if government intrusion would be really bad to remedy the situation. This is something that kind of bothers me as something I think will become legislation in the future.

The ultimate irony is that this mentality comes from those that "really don't want" the government to legislate morality (which is something that is done through the right wing (accused of anyway)). In turn they wish to use the government to legislate morality on churches.

I'm not saying you agree to this, but if it is overlooked, this will be a serious erosion of the first ammendment- by the state.

Rather interesting and thought-provoking post there.