WonderCon: The Ruckaning

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I find that pretty funny. David's probably not even doing it out of spite for Liefeld anymore; it's just a funny little in-joke. Liefeld needs to grow up and stop being a possessive baby about characters that aren't really his. Every other writer who's ever touched a Liefeld creation has only improved it. See also: Joe Kelly and Deadpool.

And, really, comic creators have never struck me as the most mature lot in the first place, so I don't care about a lack of professionalism between them. It makes for fun reading, at least.

 

[hippie_hunter]

David clearly did it to spite Liefeld. And with David's attitude, I don't see him doing it just to be funny.

Sure it's funny, but he still had the intention to insult another person. I still find PAD to be a good writer and will still buy his books, just like how I still go see Tom Cruise movies, a person's personality should have no bearing on quality (unless you're Mark Millar who puts his personality and immaturity in his comics), but frankly PAD is just one big massive *****e in my book after the Scans Daily incident.

 

[fifthfiend]

David went onto Liefeld's message boards here's a part of the argument:

Liefeld: Shatterstar is akin to Maximus in Gladiator. He’s a warrior, a Spartan, and not a gay one.

David: Thanks for the reference to “Gladiator,” though. Now I’m definitely going to have Guido ask Shatterstar if he likes gladiator movies. And when Shatterstar says, “Yes, absolutely,” Guido will say, “Figures.”

Then in X-Factor #200, he actually did it:

But then he went even further to take a jab at Liefeld in Nation X: X-Factor #1

I'm sorry, but while for the most part Liefeld is a crappy artist and is always a crappy writer because he lacks any original ideas, I expect Peter David to be more professional towards his peers.

**** that, Peter David can make fun of *****ey "BUT SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS" gay panic as much as he wants.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Just because Liefeld doesn't like Shatterstar being gay doesn't mean that David has to be a massive *****e about it. How would you feel if a comic book writer wrote a scene just to piss you off?

Just because Liefeld's art is bad 95% of the time and his writing is bad 100% of the time is no excuse to be a prick to the guy.

 

[fifthfiend]

PAD is just one big massive *****e in my book after the Scans Daily incident.

Someone should write a scene into a comic about someone sperging out at an online web community.

Just because Liefeld doesn't like Shatterstar being gay doesn't mean that David has to be a massive *****e about it. How would you feel if a comic book writer wrote a scene just to piss you off?

If it was because of my knee-jerk homophobia, I would say "I pretty much totally had that coming; maybe I should stop being a knee-jerk homophobe, and then I won't deserve to have people writing scenes in comics to piss me off."

 

[hippie_hunter]

If it was because of my stupid, knee-jerk homophobia, I would say "I should stop being a knee-jerk homophobe, and then people won't write scenes to piss me off."

But his comments had no homophobic intent. I certainly agree that he expressed his views poorly, but Liefeld was not being a knee-jerk homophobe. He just didn't like seeing his creation turn gay in frankly a poorly done scene IMO.

 

[fifthfiend]

But his comments had no homophobic intent.

Also, this pee on my shoes is actually rain.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Also, this pee on my shoes is actually rain.

Liefeld also said that he has no problem with homosexual characters as long as it is properly done. And I agree with him. Wiccan and Hulkling....properly done. Batwoman....properly done.

Rictor and Shatterstar....not properly done. I have to agree with Liefeld here, the Shatterstar and Rictor relationship felt very tacked on by a plot thread that was never finished after Loeb left the book. They should have built it up a bit better than simply have Shatterstar walk up to Rictor and kiss him.

 

[Mystirious]

Really? I actually quite like Rictor and Shatterstar as a couple. The kiss scene was well handled I thought

 

[yenaled]

Rictor and Shatterstar are a much better couple, it's actually a romantic relationship akin to heterosexual couples. I thought the kiss was a great icebreaker for the end of a comic and they have been written very well together.

Wiccan and Hulkling are some frigid teens who seemingly haven't even seen each other gentiles yet it's completely unrealistic. I believe they haven't even kissed on panel yet (I could be wrong I haven't read the recent YA miniseries). Last I heard it was company policy that they weren't allowed to be seen together doing anything more than hugging.

Leifeld is in the wrong here, any comic book writer will tell you once you leave a character - you leave it alone - you don't comment on other peoples work because it is now nothing to do with you. You didn't hear Roy Thomas and Gerry Ordway getting up in arms about Obsidian coming out as Gay a while ago because they are professionals.

 

[Mystirious]

Last I heard it was company policy that they weren't allowed to be seen together doing anything more than hugging.

If that is actually true then that's not only ridiculous and rather pathetic but also highly offensive. It's not as if Marvel are squeamish about showing sex

 

[TheCorpulent1]

David clearly did it to spite Liefeld. And with David's attitude, I don't see him doing it just to be funny.

Sure it's funny, but he still had the intention to insult another person. I still find PAD to be a good writer and will still buy his books, just like how I still go see Tom Cruise movies, a person's personality should have no bearing on quality (unless you're Mark Millar who puts his personality and immaturity in his comics), but frankly PAD is just one big massive *****e in my book after the Scans Daily incident.

To each his own. Liefeld's *****eness sort of cancels out David's for me and I just laugh at the whole thing. It's the comic industry equivalent of celebrity gossip. It's a bit of guilty behind-the-scenes fun, not anything to get worked up over.

 

[fifthfiend]

Rictor and Shatterstar are a much better couple, it's actually a romantic relationship akin to heterosexual couples. I thought the kiss was a great icebreaker for the end of a comic and they have been written very well together.

Wiccan and Hulkling are some frigid teens who seemingly haven't even seen each other gentiles yet it's completely unrealistic. I believe they haven't even kissed on panel yet (I could be wrong I haven't read the recent YA miniseries). Last I heard it was company policy that they weren't allowed to be seen together doing anything more than hugging.

"I like well-done gay relationships. The kind where they don't touch or kiss or **** or any of that kind of thing. Unless they're women because HOTT" -noted non-homophobe Rob Liefeld

...Okay I'm laying it on a bit but really what I am getting at here is in my experience any time someone makes a homophobic (or racist, or woman-hating, or whatever) comment, anyone can come up with any number of reasons for why it isn't, but you know, it probably just is. Liefeld sperged out over THE GAY like a lot of people have, like you probably have, like I have, and the best favor Peter David and anyone else could do for Rob is to make fun of him for it until he learns to get over himself the way I and anyone who tries to be a decent human being inevitably has to. Rob's response was the most blatant and obvious gay freakout ever, he grabs for the nearest excuse he can come up with "he's a warrior! and a spartan!" and then midway through he remembers an entire fact about history and goes OH and tacks on "but not a GAY Spartan! Those other spartans! The manly, women-having-sex-with Spartans!" Then follows it up with the classic, classic best-friends cliche response of people called on their *****ey attitudes.

And I mean, maybe, maybe I could say he had a point if the character had like, any established characterization that went against it but honestly, did Shatterstar ever have characterization that anyone cared about beyond "generic tough guy with swords"? Like hell if he wanted to freak out about Longshot I'd even let him have that one, because one of Longshot's like, two meaningful bits of characterization is "loves whats-her-name." Complaining about Shatterstar is like complaining if they made, oh, Guy Gardner gay. There's no incontrovertible defining romantic history that anyone seriously cares about that would mean Guy Gardner couldn't be gay (there's what, an extremely intermittent relationship with Ice, and years of halfassedly and ineffectually hitting on whoever?), the entire argument against it would be "But Guy's tough and cool and awesome, he can't be gay!" **** you, yes he could. And that's someone with a million times more characterization than any Liefeld creation, all of which are basically blank slates which exist to have other, better creators develop actual personalities for them.

In summation, Rob Liefeld should stop cryin', and Peter David's moral duty is to keep making fun of him for cryin' until he learns to stop cryin'. Much the way in which people should totally, totally make fun of Peter David for freaking out at Scans Daily until he figures out how totally ridiculous and *****ey that was.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Really? I actually quite like Rictor and Shatterstar as a couple. The kiss scene was well handled I thought

It came out of nowhere to me. Sure the relationship itself has been done rather well, but the start of it was nothing but one big WTF to me.

 

[Mystirious]

It came out of nowhere to me. Sure the relationship itself has been done rather well, but the start of it was nothing but one big WTF to me.

In all fairnes though, as fiftfiend pointed out neither of the characters were all that developed before this. I'd bet that even the most hardcore of X-Men fans would be hard pressed to name any major defining character moments for Rictor and Shatterstar

So, to me, their rather like Renee Montoya was before Gotham Central. While there wasn't any huge amount of evidence to suggest they were gay, there was little to suggest they weren't gay either

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Rictor's defining character moment before Shatterstar in X-Factor was a failed relationship with Wolfsbane. So it turns out he's either bisexual or he was very, very confused before Shatterstar came along.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I was under the opinion that Rictor was forming a crush on Siren until Shatterstar popped up. And Liefeld restored Shatterstar's hard on asexuality in the Shatterstar mini that came out not too long before X-Factor started

 

[Mystirious]

Rictor's defining character moment before Shatterstar in X-Factor was a failed relationship with Wolfsbane. So it turns out he's either bisexual or he was very, very confused before Shatterstar came along.

Well it's not unheard of. My current partner dated a number of men when she was younger, despite being a lesbian. And there are a few famous examples as well. Oscar Wild comes to mind

But he might just be bisexual like you suggest. Has there been any official word from David whether he thinks of the character as gay or Bi?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Rictor's defining character moment before Shatterstar in X-Factor was a failed relationship with Wolfsbane. So it turns out he's either bisexual or he was very, very confused before Shatterstar came along.

He has had a long history with Wolfsbane and once had a relationship with Boom Boom as well.

Now while there were plans to eventually have Shatterstar and Rictor in a relationship when Loeb was writing X-Force, those fell through and overall there was nothing to go on basing Rictor's sexuality was bi or homosexual. And there was nothing after Loeb's run to continue developing Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship after Loeb left X-Force. So with the development that did happen (not what was going/supposed to happen), they were just close friends and nothing else.

If they wanted to return to the idea of Rictor/Shatterstar they should have put more time in developing it since it was an idea that hasn't had any development for over 10 years. Seriously, I cannot get behind the Rictor/Shatterstar relationship just because the start of it was so poorly done.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well it's not unheard of. My current partner dated a number of men when she was younger, despite being a lesbian. And there are a few famous examples as well. Oscar Wild comes to mind

But he might just be bisexual like you suggest. Has there been any official word from David whether he thinks of the character as gay or Bi?

I think David confirmed that Rictor was bi.

 

[Mystirious]

I think David confirmed that Rictor was bi.

Thee you go then That neatly explains how the charactr can be in a relationship with Shattestar even though he's been attracted to Boom Boom and Wolfsbane in the past

If they wanted to return to the idea of Rictor/Shatterstar they should have put more time in developing it since it was an idea that hasn't had any development for over 10 years. Seriously, I cannot get behind the Rictor/Shatterstar relationship just because the start of it was so poorly done.

Fair enough. I'll confess I'm just a big softy when it comes to relationships in comics. So long as I think two characters are rather cute together that's all that matters to me

But you feel it seemed kind of rushed then?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Fair enough. I'll confess I'm just a big softy when it comes to relationships in comics. So long as I think two characters are rather cute together that's all that matters to me

But you feel it seemed kind of rushed then?

I love relationships in comics as well. But I love them when they're developed.

Like I said, bringing back an idea that was never followed through 10 years ago without any development is just plain bad writing. Ignoring the most recent characterizations such as Rictor being completely heterosexual and Shatterstar going back to his asexuality is bad writing.

David should have taken the time to undo Liefeld's redoing of Shatterstar's "I have no emotions" bullcrap and give a better impression that Rictor was bisexual.

 

[Mystirious]

I love relationships in comics as well. But I love them when they're developed.

Like I said, bringing back an idea that was never followed through 10 years ago without any development is just plain bad writing. Ignoring the most recent characterizations such as Rictor being completely heterosexual and Shatterstar going back to his asexuality is bad writing.

David should have taken the time to undo Liefeld's redoing of Shatterstar's "I have no emotions" bullcrap and give a better impression that Rictor was bisexual.

Well to be fair to Peter David, a character having a heterosexual relationship doesn't make them completely heterosexual. Plenty of gay people in denial or seeking to hide their sexuality hav relationships with the opposite sex and plenty of people are bisexual as well

But with the asexuality I'll confess I didn't read the Liefield penned Shatterstar mini so I don't know much about that. Did it make a big deal of Shatterstar not having any sexuality whatsoever?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well to be fair to Peter David, a character having a heterosexual relationship doesn't make them completely heterosexual. Plenty of gay people in denial or seeking to hide their sexuality hav relationships with the opposite sex and plenty of people are bisexual as well

True, but in my opinion it would have been much better if the story was like this:

1. Shatterstar reappears and starts to hang out with his close friend Rictor, they go off wondering why they haven't spent as much time together as they used to, become closer friends, etc.

2. Shatterstar's reestablished emotionless attitude and asexuality is gradually gotten rid of and Rictor starts to realize that he is truly in love with Shatterstar and Shatterstar returns those feelings to the man who had him bring his emotions back out.

3. Have Rictor deal with and accept the fact that he is a bisexual.

4. Rictor and Shatterstar star having a relationship.

Done gradually. Properly developed. And with the way David has written Rictor and Shatterstar as a couple it would have been absolutely great.

The scene where Shatterstar just simply pops up and kisses Rictor and BOOM! They're in a relationship now ruins it by simply having them magically be gay when previous writing has them well....not gay.

But with the asexuality I'll confess I didn't read the Liefield penned Shatterstar mini so I don't know much about that. Did it make a big deal of Shatterstar not having any sexuality whatsoever?

No, but Liefeld in his crappy writing decided to ignore previous work on the Shatterstar character and firmly established his original "I have no emotions" bullcrap and his and Nicieza's original design of him as an asexual.

Sure it was crappy writing (Liefeld's writing is far worse than his art IMO), but it is something that should have been retconned (like some unknown trauma caused Shatterstar to go back to being emotionless or some kind of magic spell or whatever) or dealt with (like going back to the way Shatterstar gained emotions in the 90's....gradually) instead of just flat out ignored.

 

[Mystirious]

True, but in my opinion it would have been much better if the story was like this:

1. Shatterstar reappears and starts to hang out with his close friend Rictor, they go off wondering why they haven't spent as much time together as they used to, become closer friends, etc.

2. Shatterstar's reestablished emotionless attitude and asexuality is gradually gotten rid of and Rictor starts to realize that he is truly in love with Shatterstar and Shatterstar returns those feelings to the man who had him bring his emotions back out.

3. Have Rictor deal with and accept the fact that he is a bisexual.

4. Rictor and Shatterstar star having a relationship.

Done gradually. Properly developed. And with the way David has written Rictor and Shatterstar as a couple it would have been absolutely great.

That does sound pretty good and much better than how the couple came together in the comics. But we should bear in mind that David probably didn't know how long he had on the title. Marvel have been lousy about cancelling series lately. Look at Exiles and SWORD. Both got less than 8 issues before the axe came down. Maybe he was just worried about te series being cancelled before he could tell the story he wanted to tell and so rushed it through

Taking the long view and building stories up over time may be better from a narrative perpective but it can lead to problems if something happens to disrupt the story flow. Look at Greg Rucka and Gail Simone on Wonder Woman. Both had long term plans that were ruined by outside forces. The result was loose ends aplenty and wasted potential

No, but Liefeld in his crappy writing decided to ignore previous work on the Shatterstar character and firmly established his original "I have no emotions" bullcrap and his and Nicieza's original design of him as an asexual.

Sure it was crappy writing (Liefeld's writing is far worse than his art IMO), but it is something that should have been retconned (like some unknown trauma caused Shatterstar to go back to being emotionless or some kind of magic spell or whatever) or dealt with (like going back to the way Shatterstar gained emotions in the 90's....gradually) instead of just flat out ignored.

Well, sometimes when a story is really that bad all you can do is ignore it. Like Amazons Attack. Or Countdown