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Worst Moments in Comic Books

Jamiepoole said:
That's kinda obvious though...it's like stan lee (I think) said when someone asked how comes Spidey is never killed when he's caught by his enemies and he replied something like (in a sort of 'duh' tone) 'Because if he did, series over.'

I don't get why people complain that the most popular characters never die. That's a given, and an obvious one at that. If you don't like that (I say 'you' as in anyone, not anyone in particular btw), then your not gonna find many comics/tv shows/ film series you will like.

That's not what I'm complaining about.

I'm complaining about charming but underused characters getting offed in stupid meaningless ways and then people trying to tell me how it really shakes up the status quo, or how it makes things realistic cause hey, characters die, because dying is what happens in real life so that makes it real.

It's like if you had to hear what a goddamn genius Gene Roddenberry was every time someone offed a redshirt on Star Trek. When Gene Roddenberry wanted to shake things up he killed Spock, goddammit, he killed him dead and he shot his ****ing corpse into space. Yeah, they brought him back, but there were two whole years there where that was it, freaking Spock was dead.

Sorry, you don't get to tell me how bold and risk-taking Marvel is being and then say "oh but Wolverine can't die, I mean that might actually have consequences or something!" It just doesn't work.

... And while I'm on the subject, let me note that the whole reason I bring up Wolverine in these things, as opposed to Spider-Man, is if Wolverine dies then the series isn't over, because just about every series he's in is a team book. Kill him off and the show would go on just fine, just without the crutch for sloppy unimaginative writers and lazy, pandering publishers.
 
fifthfiend said:
It's like if you had to hear what a goddamn genius Gene Roddenberry was every time someone offed a redshirt on Star Trek. When Gene Roddenberry wanted to shake things up he killed Spock, goddammit, he killed him dead and he shot his ****ing corpse into space. Yeah, they brought him back, but there were two whole years there where that was it, freaking Spock was dead. .

It probably meant Leyonard didn't wanna work for a year or two.

But he came back, so what changed REALLY? Not a lot, I'm guessing. Im not a Star Trek fan so I don't know for sure, but I don't see why it would change anything at all, especially if he came back. People don't come back two years later in real life, so how can you complain about people not dying in comics because its not realistic, and then praise someone who killed a character off and brought him back?
 
Jamiepoole said:
so how can you complain about people not dying in comics because its not realistic

Because clearly what I've been arguing for this entire time is that comics need to be made more realistic, by the particular means of killing off characters.:rolleyes:

So yeah, I'm done with this.

See there? You actually made me resort to using smileys. I hope you're proud of yourself.
 
But these are COMICS for cripes sake.....

Listen I caught myself doing the same thing the other day...Part of us strive for 'realism" and get bugged out when things dont jive with the physics, rational and etc.. of OUR world...I do too some times..

But then you got to pinch yourself and say "its Just comics"

All of us are just doomed to go with the flow....thats comics for you...

But even still, death is ALWAYS (except for Mar-vell) a passing fad...and the Tone of Comics is always a transient thing ....

So I dont get to worked up about it.
 
I think this qualifies as one of the worst moments in comic books ever.

In Batman: War Games, as if the torture of a preteen girl and beloved audience identification figure wasn't enough, the evil Black Mask pulls out a POWER DRILL to use on sweet, innocent Steph Brown. But wait, it gets "better." Due to a power outage, she taunts him on how he's unable to use the drill. He then reveals a portable generator and dot dot dot.

Get the symbolism there? It's like some Hostel-sick male empowerment fantasy.

Subtextual rape of a minor underlying the textual torture of a minor. THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT, FOLKS!
 
Zev said:
I think this qualifies as one of the worst moments in comic books ever.

In Batman: War Games, as if the torture of a preteen girl and beloved audience identification figure wasn't enough, the evil Black Mask pulls out a POWER DRILL to use on sweet, innocent Steph Brown. But wait, it gets "better." Due to a power outage, she taunts him on how he's unable to use the drill. He then reveals a portable generator and dot dot dot.

Get the symbolism there? It's like some Hostel-sick male empowerment fantasy.

Subtextual rape of a minor underlying the textual torture of a minor. THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT, FOLKS!
Come on now,Zev,you know it isn't Black Mask's fault.

He was dropped on his head as a baby.:o
 
Zev said:
I think this qualifies as one of the worst moments in comic books ever.

In Batman: War Games, as if the torture of a preteen girl and beloved audience identification figure wasn't enough, the evil Black Mask pulls out a POWER DRILL to use on sweet, innocent Steph Brown. But wait, it gets "better." Due to a power outage, she taunts him on how he's unable to use the drill. He then reveals a portable generator and dot dot dot.

Get the symbolism there? It's like some Hostel-sick male empowerment fantasy.

Subtextual rape of a minor underlying the textual torture of a minor. THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT, FOLKS!
Yeah, that was rather intense, and not helped by the Leslie Thompkins moment.

The funny thing is, the same fans who go into a "berserker rage" when some mass media pundit will (incorrectly) claim that comic books are gender-biased will usually say something along the lines of, "I understand this character so much more" when a female character either is raped on panel or explains that she was raped. We had a dozen people going, "oh god, Black Cat is so much better now as a character" after she reveals she was raped. And then you have Sue Dibney in IDENTITY CRISIS and what spawned from that.

Hmm. Does it work for male characters? I never liked Bishop. But if he told the audience that he'd been bent over by Nimrod in the 44rd century or where-ever the hell he hails from, should that make him a "more relatable character"? I would say no.

What's funny is that while writers will claim that these stories are "edgy", they'll rarely be "edgy" enough to do it to an A-List heroine who is incredibly popular (at least at the time). Spoiler, while well known, wasn't A-list. She wasn't Wonder Woman or Lois Lane. Black Cat isn't Spider-Woman or Sue Storm right now (although Sue is set to die in a few months, so I guess the universe rights itself. :rolleyes: ). Even during a Genosha tale when Rogue was claimed to have been "fondled" while captured and depowered, it was during the 80's when she was HARDLY as popular as she would become ten years later. Alex Ross usually talks a lot of crap in interviews, but when WIZARD interviewed him about IC, he claimed that, "if DC had balls, do that to Lois Lane and see how the readers react. Have some guts. Don't take a character that only a few dozen people know about and love and do that to her", and in a way, he has a point.

Another point, of course, is that maybe these things are a bit one-sided. Realistically, women are unfortunately more often than not the victims of crime; this is a fact (much as statistically, males commit most of the crime, especially violent crime). And because villians usually attempt to hurt a hero through attacking that hero's friends/family/lovers, and as superheroes are predominantly male, that means female characters will unproportionately suffer in stories without it being purely "sexist", just following a rational ideology. And in a way, some of these stories aren't truly "edgy", but trying to be. So, the point is, that if Heroine A gets raped, she would react....poorly? As would her lover? They would be saddened, frustrated, etc.? Well, GOSH, color me surprised. That's only the NATURAL reaction. Darkness for darkness' sake.

Gail Simone, before she hit it big, had a website devoted to covering this sort of thing ("Women In Refrigerators", named after Kyle Rayner's ex-girlfriend's fate). While there can be a place for stories such as these, incessently using them for shock value (along with death) can become a sort of downbeat doldrum that doesn't exactly prove comic critics wrong about their stereotypical judgements of the comic book genre. And that's a shame.
 
Dread said:
Yeah, that was rather intense, and not helped by the Leslie Thompkins moment.

The funny thing is, the same fans who go into a "berserker rage" when some mass media pundit will (incorrectly) claim that comic books are gender-biased will usually say something along the lines of, "I understand this character so much more" when a female character either is raped on panel or explains that she was raped. We had a dozen people going, "oh god, Black Cat is so much better now as a character" after she reveals she was raped. And then you have Sue Dibney in IDENTITY CRISIS and what spawned from that.

Hmm. Does it work for male characters? I never liked Bishop. But if he told the audience that he'd been bent over by Nimrod in the 44rd century or where-ever the hell he hails from, should that make him a "more relatable character"? I would say no.

What's funny is that while writers will claim that these stories are "edgy", they'll rarely be "edgy" enough to do it to an A-List heroine who is incredibly popular (at least at the time). Spoiler, while well known, wasn't A-list. She wasn't Wonder Woman or Lois Lane. Black Cat isn't Spider-Woman or Sue Storm right now (although Sue is set to die in a few months, so I guess the universe rights itself. :rolleyes: ). Even during a Genosha tale when Rogue was claimed to have been "fondled" while captured and depowered, it was during the 80's when she was HARDLY as popular as she would become ten years later. Alex Ross usually talks a lot of crap in interviews, but when WIZARD interviewed him about IC, he claimed that, "if DC had balls, do that to Lois Lane and see how the readers react. Have some guts. Don't take a character that only a few dozen people know about and love and do that to her", and in a way, he has a point.

Another point, of course, is that maybe these things are a bit one-sided. Realistically, women are unfortunately more often than not the victims of crime; this is a fact (much as statistically, males commit most of the crime, especially violent crime). And because villians usually attempt to hurt a hero through attacking that hero's friends/family/lovers, and as superheroes are predominantly male, that means female characters will unproportionately suffer in stories without it being purely "sexist", just following a rational ideology. And in a way, some of these stories aren't truly "edgy", but trying to be. So, the point is, that if Heroine A gets raped, she would react....poorly? As would her lover? They would be saddened, frustrated, etc.? Well, GOSH, color me surprised. That's only the NATURAL reaction. Darkness for darkness' sake.

Gail Simone, before she hit it big, had a website devoted to covering this sort of thing ("Women In Refrigerators", named after Kyle Rayner's ex-girlfriend's fate). While there can be a place for stories such as these, incessently using them for shock value (along with death) can become a sort of downbeat doldrum that doesn't exactly prove comic critics wrong about their stereotypical judgements of the comic book genre. And that's a shame.


http://www.the-pantheon.net/wir/
 
Monkeycrackmary has a project going on exactly this topic, for anyone who's on Livejournal.
 
I agree with, as a male reader, that I don't want to read comics just to get "soft-core porn". Heck, Lois Lane's been wearing THONGS for chrissakes, trapsing around in her kitchen in the mornings. There's more to life, and comics, than T & A.

Granted, this is not solely an American problem. Japan, which is a more "uptight" society, has plenty of the same issues, if not moreso, in their own manga. Or at least some of it. Granted, manga has more genre variety; American comics are almost exclusively about superhero opera.

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy; the cliche for comic books is that "girls don't read them", yet it is stories such as these and some of the over-sexualization (depending on the writer; anyone who reads Frank Miller knows what to expect) that may drive them off. Yet the proof is that girls CAN and DO read comics. In fact, the girl audience is tapping into the manga market almost as much, if not moreso, than guys. I see more girls buying manga when I go to stores than I do guys. The guys are busy with WOLVERINE.
 
Dread said:
I agree with, as a male reader, that I don't want to read comics just to get "soft-core porn". Heck, Lois Lane's been wearing THONGS for chrissakes, trapsing around in her kitchen in the mornings. There's more to life, and comics, than T & A.

Granted, this is not solely an American problem. Japan, which is a more "uptight" society, has plenty of the same issues, if not moreso, in their own manga. Or at least some of it. Granted, manga has more genre variety; American comics are almost exclusively about superhero opera.


Not to cheapen the arguemtn, but id say thats in character for Lois.:confused:
 
My biggest ***** about comics these days is how almost no one stays dead. They come back as clones, resurrected from the dead or found somewhere and brainwashed. If a character has a poignant death scene that actually makes you feel for them, thats fine. But if they bring back that character with some stupid reason (cloning, magic, whatever) it ruins everything. Check the Blue Beetle's death in the first Infinite Crisis issue. That was a great scene, I'm not much of a DC fanboy but it was a great issue because they capped it off with that. I've read the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline and found BB was a bit of a weiner, but I actually respect the guy now.

In Marvel they've pretty much killed everyone at one time or another and brought them back (except Uncle Ben, but give it a few more years and he'll be back too). I mean Jean Grey dies every couple of years, colossus came back, Gwen's come back, it just doesnt end. Whenever someone dies it's no longer "Whats going to happen now?", It's "How long 'til they come back this time?" And that's my rant.
 
Zev said:
Monkeycrackmary has a project going on exactly this topic, for anyone who's on Livejournal.


Man, not to be an ass or anything but these chicks sound kind of crazy(I know there are guys there as well). They seem like some Black Panther revolutionary party. Like posting on a livejournal is really going to do something in the way of change.
 
Dread said:
Yeah, that was rather intense, and not helped by the Leslie Thompkins moment.

The funny thing is, the same fans who go into a "berserker rage" when some mass media pundit will (incorrectly) claim that comic books are gender-biased will usually say something along the lines of, "I understand this character so much more" when a female character either is raped on panel or explains that she was raped. We had a dozen people going, "oh god, Black Cat is so much better now as a character" after she reveals she was raped. And then you have Sue Dibney in IDENTITY CRISIS and what spawned from that.

Hmm. Does it work for male characters? I never liked Bishop. But if he told the audience that he'd been bent over by Nimrod in the 44rd century or where-ever the hell he hails from, should that make him a "more relatable character"? I would say no.

What's funny is that while writers will claim that these stories are "edgy", they'll rarely be "edgy" enough to do it to an A-List heroine who is incredibly popular (at least at the time). Spoiler, while well known, wasn't A-list. She wasn't Wonder Woman or Lois Lane. Black Cat isn't Spider-Woman or Sue Storm right now (although Sue is set to die in a few months, so I guess the universe rights itself. :rolleyes: ). Even during a Genosha tale when Rogue was claimed to have been "fondled" while captured and depowered, it was during the 80's when she was HARDLY as popular as she would become ten years later. Alex Ross usually talks a lot of crap in interviews, but when WIZARD interviewed him about IC, he claimed that, "if DC had balls, do that to Lois Lane and see how the readers react. Have some guts. Don't take a character that only a few dozen people know about and love and do that to her", and in a way, he has a point.

Another point, of course, is that maybe these things are a bit one-sided. Realistically, women are unfortunately more often than not the victims of crime; this is a fact (much as statistically, males commit most of the crime, especially violent crime). And because villians usually attempt to hurt a hero through attacking that hero's friends/family/lovers, and as superheroes are predominantly male, that means female characters will unproportionately suffer in stories without it being purely "sexist", just following a rational ideology. And in a way, some of these stories aren't truly "edgy", but trying to be. So, the point is, that if Heroine A gets raped, she would react....poorly? As would her lover? They would be saddened, frustrated, etc.? Well, GOSH, color me surprised. That's only the NATURAL reaction. Darkness for darkness' sake.
At one point, Byrne had an interesting anecdote about when he got to write Wonder Woman for awhile. According to the editor he made the pitch to, every. single. other writer's pitch started with "okay, Wonder Woman gets raped..."

Writers like Phil Himinez can do great character development of a female character that doesn't involving her getting violated. Anyone who thinks female characters can only get developed through rape needs a reality check. Of course, in the Black Cat mini-series, Kevin Smith also had the new Mysterio guy reveal that he had been raped by his brother. Rapes for everyone!
 
Shadowknight said:
At one point, Byrne had an interesting anecdote about when he got to write Wonder Woman for awhile. According to the editor he made the pitch to, every. single. other writer's pitch started with "okay, Wonder Woman gets raped..."

Writers like Phil Himinez can do great character development of a female character that doesn't involving her getting violated. Anyone who thinks female characters can only get developed through rape needs a reality check. Of course, in the Black Cat mini-series, Kevin Smith also had the new Mysterio guy reveal that he had been raped by his brother. Rapes for everyone!
Yeesh. :eek:
 
I actually have that issue with Major Force killing Kyle's gf and stuffing her in the fridge. This was, like, ten years ago, so they didn't actually show the murder or whatever, and Major Force didn't get mindwiped, but, still.

You know something? That didn't even make the cover. Apparently, the focus of the issue was supposed to be that Kyle's ring died at an awkward moment, not that his girlfriend was killed and the body was put in a place where food in normally kept.
 
rigel7soldiers said:
I actually have that issue with Major Force killing Kyle's gf and stuffing her in the fridge. This was, like, ten years ago, so they didn't actually show the murder or whatever, and Major Force didn't get mindwiped, but, still.

You know something? That didn't even make the cover. Apparently, the focus of the issue was supposed to be that Kyle's ring died at an awkward moment, not that his girlfriend was killed and the body was put in a place where food in normally kept.
A lot of people feel that was the genius of that story. The shock and surprise of it.
 
Dread said:
I agree with, as a male reader, that I don't want to read comics just to get "soft-core porn". Heck, Lois Lane's been wearing THONGS for chrissakes, trapsing around in her kitchen in the mornings. There's more to life, and comics, than T & A.

Granted, this is not solely an American problem. Japan, which is a more "uptight" society, has plenty of the same issues, if not moreso, in their own manga. Or at least some of it. Granted, manga has more genre variety; American comics are almost exclusively about superhero opera.

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy; the cliche for comic books is that "girls don't read them", yet it is stories such as these and some of the over-sexualization (depending on the writer; anyone who reads Frank Miller knows what to expect) that may drive them off. Yet the proof is that girls CAN and DO read comics. In fact, the girl audience is tapping into the manga market almost as much, if not moreso, than guys. I see more girls buying manga when I go to stores than I do guys. The guys are busy with WOLVERINE.
Anyone who doesn't think most girls let alone city slickers like Lois Lane don't wear thongs (at least sometimes) haven't dated that many women.
 
Shadowknight said:
At one point, Byrne had an interesting anecdote about when he got to write Wonder Woman for awhile. According to the editor he made the pitch to, every. single. other writer's pitch started with "okay, Wonder Woman gets raped..."


Dude. She's ****ing Wonder Woman. Unless the perp is Lobo or Mongul or someone, I'd think she would probably kick the guy who tries something like that's ass all over the U.S.A.
 
The Question said:
Dude. She's ****ing Wonder Woman. Unless the perp is Lobo or Mongul or someone, I'd think she would probably kick the guy who tries something like that's ass all over the U.S.A.
I'd have Superman rape her...now THAT would be an interesting story, people would just buy the issue on the sheer "WTF" reaction.
 
I can see the issue now.....



Diana wakes up after passing out drunk in her quarters at the Justice League christmas party.

"......uhhhh. By the gods. Why did I drink that....."

She looks down.

"....why am I naked?"



Later, in the hall of Justice......


"Clark, how could you do that?!"

"Well....Bruce...c'mon..."

"I thought you were the boy scout!"

"She didn't technically say no, so....."

"Clark. She was passed out. You raped her. You. Raped. Diana."

Clark stands there in silence, shamefully.

".....HONKHONK!"
 
ShadowBoxing said:
Anyone who doesn't think most girls let alone city slickers like Lois Lane don't wear thongs (at least sometimes) haven't dated that many women.
I haven't.

But the point is that we have Lois Lane in undies sometimes with her ARSE shoved into the camera. Lord, it goes without saying that many heroines are in poses on panel that seem a bit...well, yeah. And also that you have seemingly intelligent, "career women" and all that trotting around in their unmentionables with convient angles at times. Yikes, I remember when all the Spidey-fans flipped out once when Peter Parker was shown wearing nothing but a towel in his apartment once about a year or so ago. For the ladies, that's par for the course. Not saying people don't do that, but do we need to see it? People take dumps after eating too much chili, too, but do we need to see Superman on the Super-crapper? Would it make him a "better character"?

That's well and good for red blooded guys, but after a while it sort of gels and almost becomes like a drinking game. "Oh, look, it's another boob shot of She-Hulk, take a shot."
 
Dread said:
Yikes, I remember when all the Spidey-fans flipped out once when Peter Parker was shown wearing nothing but a towel in his apartment once about a year or so ago.
[ghetto]Ferrealz?[/ghetto] But Peter walks around half-naked all the time, even in some of the older comics like ten years ago. Hell, I remember thinking a few weeks ago that Peter's been shown shirtless at least once a month throughout his three core books for the last year or so.
 

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