X-Men - Part 2

[chamber-music]

Logan had a troubled past and fought in multiple wars and all, but I think he doesn't see the world as harshly as Scott does. Scott has had the fate of the entire mutant race resting on his shoulders since he was a kid. Charles put the X-Men together to save an entire species from itself and its enemies, and then he put Scott in charge of the X-Men. Scott then proceeded to spend the rest of his youth watching his friends get killed while trying to adhere to a non-lethal code of conduct.

So yeah, after watching his race get nearly wiped out several times in a short period, Scott clearly said "f*** it" and threw the non-killing stuff out the door. And because Scott and his friends have been doing this since they were kids, Scott likely doesn't see the difference between an old soldier like Logan and a girl who will either die or eventually grow into an old soldier herself like Idie.

I'm not saying he's right or I support the X-Men going around assassinating their enemies (I believe that superheroes should hold a more pragmatic view to lethal force, not unlike a police force who kill as a last resort and have their actions checked on), but I can see where Scott is coming from.

I understand Scotts change but Wolverine has been a one man killing machine for cover a century. His been around people like Sabertooth, Mystique and so on who act far worst than Scott has.

Also Wolverine is still the one leading Mutant death squad Uncanny X-Force is which Fantomex put a bullet in a kids head who may or may not grow up to be Apocalypse and while Logan wasn't in favour of it he hasn't exactly fallen out with Fantomex over the killing.

Many of the X-Men like Storm, Colossus and so had killed long before Scott dropped the no killing policy.

In Scotts point of view its kill or be killed. Buses of mutants have been blown up unprovoked, people will try and kill mutants whether they could defend themselves or not.

 

[Kevin]

It seems to be missed. It's not about Logan killing or kids watching Logan kill. It's the Kids themselves Killing. There are some things children should not do/be subjected to. (that includes watching someone being killed, but it's another thing all together, I assume, to kill someone yourself)

Yes, He trained Kitty to be a Ninja, but is she going around killing everything in sight? Hell, when is the last time she's killed anything? Kitty is like the saint of the x-men at this point.

And what about Jubilee?

X-23 was already broken and since she's joined the x-men he's been trying to get her to be a normal teenage girl, as evidence in New X-men. Which is funny because that book was full of murder.

And to another point, A good number of the x-men have killed, but 1) They are adults meaning they probably have a better grasp of their actions, 2) They felt there was no other choice (Idie probably felt there was no other way, but with her Powers I disagree.) And 3) They, more often then not, show remorse.

Idie felt nothing and was ready for another go. That worries me. A lot. That's some serial killer ****. But meh, this is a tired back and forth conversation that will get us nowhere.

 

[chamber-music]

I don't recall Cyclops telling the X-kids to kill anyone in fact his stopped them going after villians they want revenge on (but I may be wrong becuase I don't read every X-book).

Mutants trying to fit in and live normal lives usually doesn't work. Genosha got blown up, Church of Humanity murdered mutants not even on X-teams. Even if these mutants want a normal peaceful life in the Marvel Universe they won't get it which is partly why they came to Xaviers in the first place not just to learn about their powers, be around other mutants and protect the would from dangerous threats but to protect themselves from those who would do harm to them because they are mutants.

 

[roach]

Which showcases why this is a stupid argument. Being a mutant is deadly now that they is only a handful of them...being an X-men is even worst.Anybody who puts an X on their costume and goes on missions should always know they may have to take a life. They dont fight bank robbers or people like that. They fight people who only want to see them dead.
This doesnt mean they should be going out killing everyone...but sometimes the only way to stop someone is to put them down.
Neither Scott or Logan should have the right to argue this since both have created secret assassination squads

 

[chamber-music]

I really see neither character having the moral high ground really. Even when you had Xavier and Erik arguing it would be hard to see the moral high ground sometimes too

 

[Manic]

With Charles and Erik, I got the impression that the main difference between them was patience. They both knew mutants were going to eventually grow in number and replace humanity, but Erik wanted that to happen NOW before mutants are put into camps and executed, but Charles wanted everybody to get along before it quietly happened over time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Magneto's also a megalomaniac who wanted to be in charge of the new mutant world order. Chuck was content to sit on the sidelines and let others carry mutantkind into the future.

 

[roach]

While Magneto did want to rule the world I think for someone who lived through the holocaust and was forseeing another one coming he didnt have a lot of faith in other people....he just didnt realize he was becoming what he was trying to prevent.

Xavier, while everyone likes to call him the MLK of mutantkind, I do wish he did a lot more for the cause. Making the X-men doesnt count. Organizing marches and true human rights stuff would have been better.

 

[Manic]

I have a woulda-coulda-shoulda even better than that.

You know those millions or billions of dollars Charles spent on state of the art equipment to train his own private militia over the past decade? He could've funneled all of that money into lobbying Congress and public relations campaigns.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I always figured he did. Dude seems to have an endless supply of money, just like most comic book rich folks. I figured he was spending as much on lobbying Congress for mutant rights as he was on the Danger Room, and the X-Men were supposed to be his public relations campaign. Mutants as heroes standing up for innocents of all kinds, be they mutant or human, against all threats, be they mutant or human. The X-Men's contraction into a "protect only mutants at any cost and f*** the rest" squad didn't happen until long after Charles formed the team.

 

[Havok83]

Xavier wasnt even publicly recognized as a mutant until Morrison's New X-men run. No one even knew the school was the X-men's secret headquarters. I dont even know how that made sense and how it remained secret especially with as many times as the place has been destroyed and the fact that the X-men havent had secret identities since the O5 days

 

[roach]

actually the secret identities being gone is a recent thing...during Claremont's run Cable introduced a computer virus that erased all mention of the X-men.
During the X-Factor days the O5 were able to pretend to be mutant hunters and 'evil' mutants.

 

[javi1024]

there was also that time when Storm and Wolverine went to the Pentagon to secure all information the government had on the X-Men (i believe this was the first time they met/fought Rogue). and i think i remember during Onslaught or Operation: Zero Tolerance the release of their secret identities was an issue. or maybe i have that confused with the Xavier Protocols.

 

[roach]

there was also that time when Storm and Wolverine went to the Pentagon to secure all information the government had on the X-Men (i believe this was the first time they met/fought Rogue). and i think i remember during Onslaught or Operation: Zero Tolerance the release of their secret identities was an issue. or maybe i have that confused with the Xavier Protocols.

wasnt the Xavier Protocols Charles plan to take out the X-men

 

[javi1024]

wasnt the Xavier Protocols Charles plan to take out the X-men

yes. i remember them being worried about the Phalanx, and then Bastion getting their hands on that, but i can't recall if releasing their identities was also a concern.

 

[BoredGuy]

It seems they're definitely having Logan turn over a new leaf as far as his stance on killing. Between the past arc in his solo title, as well as the surprising lack of stabbing going on in X-Force, they certainly seem to be leading him towards a more Avengers-friendly disposition.
Logan's position is that he and some others have gone through hell and are more or less destined to be killers at this point. That, he doesn't have such a problem with (though they have said even X-force will be changing mission statements after Schism). His problem is bringin up a younger generation with no hope or choice for a normal life. He trained kitty and jubilee, yes, but they had already chosen to be x-men, and to be fighters. He taught them to defend themselves. Whereas, he sees Cyclops instilling the 'fight for survival at all times' mentality in these kids, and he disapproves.
Cyclops, on the other hand, is concerned with the continued viability of mutants as a race of people, and wants to protect that at all costs. They all need to be soldiers if they have any hope of expanding their species.
Basically, Wolvie says "we're all humans", and cyke says "we must protect our future"

I think they actually did a good job of making two justifiable positions, but they're clearly trying to make Wolverine more of a baby-face, to use a wrestling term...

 

[squeekness]

In Logan's headline book, he was tricked into killing his own offspring, kids he had no idea even existed and I'm not talking Daken here or Laura. It really rocked him and I wonder if that is the thing that really changes his stance on murder, even if it's in self defense.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nothing will change his stance on murder. He'd be less popular if he didn't kill everything in sight.

 

[BoredGuy]

I dunno man, are you reading X-Force and Wolverine?? s'called character development, even Wolvie's allowed to have some..

And I disagree with your second point, I think his diminishing popularity in recent years shows killing =/= popularity

 

[TheCorpulent1]

His popularity's been diminishing? Movies and cartoons devoted mainly to him, several ongoing series centered on him, enough one-shots to build a paper Hoover Dam out of...

 

[Manic]

He's getting his own comic titled Wolverine & The Blowfish. His popularity is hardly going down.

 

[Anubis]

Besides, Character development in Superhero comics is temporary at best. It's only good up until the next writer takes over.

 

[BoredGuy]

well, okay, point.

But he took a big hit after that travesty of a movie
Not to mention endless forum *****ing about "oh he's in everything! he just stabs people! he shouldn't be an avenger!"
Also, his title hasn't sold as well as it used to, and his main title was stolen by that *****e Daken
He's still a top tier character, but he's definitely dropped a few spots

and yes, development is temporary, but that unfortunately afflicts every character, might as well give logan some benefit of the doubt.
s'all I'm sayin..

 

[Anubis]

....Nah.

 

[Manic]

For every writer who decides to develop Logan as a person, there's simultaneously a miniseries being printed where he's trying to kill a child.