X-Men - Part 2

[chamber-music]

and therein lies the biggest problem with wolverine being in so many books, I suppose.

If he was only in Uncanny X-Force, Schism(followed by W&tX), and Wolverine, he'd be an amazingly written character, and a lot of the Wolvie hate around here would probably subside

I agree it he was in a core group of perhaps 3 books then you could get some kind of character consistency.

I liked the Jean dig. Wolverine could be super creepy back in the day.

Cable turned the orginal New Mutant kids into a X-Force a paramilitary mutant which didn't have a problem with killing although it wasn't there modus operandi.
By the time Pete Wisdom took over though killing wasn't a issue.

Generation X in the house of correction storyline killed some kids who got turned into cyborgs it was a mercy killing but they still killed people.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Pretty much, but perhaps Logan considers himself to be damned beyond help and then it doesn't matter who he kills. But he may not want that for any of the kids. He doesn't want them going down his dark path.

His dark path being around them and showing them repeatedly that it's fine to kill is still doing the damage, though. As I understand it, Cyclops directed Idie to do something concerning the Hellfire Club, and she took it upon herself to murder all of them. Between Wolverine's constant, well documented killing and Cyclops' post-Decimation take-no-prisoners attitude, can anyone really be surprised that the kids are hardening into killers so quickly? Basically, it seems to me that Schism is really just about Cyclops and Wolverine throwing straw-man arguments at each other over an outcome with the kids that is, in reality, both of their fault. They've both contributed to this cycle of persecution, retribution, blood, and death that has twisted their youth into people who believe killing is the first, best response to a given situation.

 

[javi1024]

Has Cyclops ever once, at any point in Schism, pointed the finger at Wolverine and said something to the effect of, "Maybe the kids wouldn't be so ready to kill if you didn't set such a f***ing terrible example by doing it yourself every waking moment of your life"? Because that's basically the crux of this argument. I don't care what Wolverine says, his actions--over decades now--have proven that he's down with anybody killing anybody else for just about any reason.

to an extent i guess. he says something like "well it's your job to prepare these kids in defending themselves but you always blow it off". id say Cyclops doesn't care about Logan enough personally to say he sets a bad example for the kids.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Bleh, the X-Men are just all kinds of f***ed up. I'm really annoyed that Beast is coming back to them. He was right the first time when he blew the lot of 'em off for being a**holes and joined the Avengers.

 

[javi1024]

His dark path being around them and showing them repeatedly that it's fine to kill is still doing the damage, though. As I understand it, Cyclops directed Idie to do something concerning the Hellfire Club, and she took it upon herself to murder all of them. Between Wolverine's constant, well documented killing and Cyclops' post-Decimation take-no-prisoners attitude, can anyone really be surprised that the kids are hardening into killers so quickly? Basically, it seems to me that Schism is really just about Cyclops and Wolverine throwing straw-man arguments at each other over an outcome with the kids that is, in reality, both of their fault. They've both contributed to this cycle of persecution, retribution, blood, and death that has twisted their youth into people who believe killing is the first, best response to a given situation.

the Hellfire Club crashes a museum gala something-or-other dedicated to mutants that the X-Men (plus Idie) made an appearance. She was the only one left standing cuz she was hiding so the only options were to run (Wolverine) or fight (Cyclops), but Idie is like 13-14 years old, from what i understand no combat training, and no control of her power. so for Cyclops to say "do what you have to do" put her in a position that could only have turned out bad, and Logan feels (and so do i) he had no right to ask that of her.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hope's team hasn't had any training? Why not?

 

[javi1024]

Hope's team hasn't had any training? Why not?

that i don't know, im only assuming. i dont read Gen Hope, i only know her from her character's introduction in Uncanny, i don't fully understand her powers other than she set her village on fire, and its only been like 10 issues so i dont think anyone there is a master yet.

 

[squeekness]

With all the bad guys the Xs have had thrown at them lately it's small wonder the kids are getting more violent. I am not saying it's a good way to go, but I can understand it. You start losing that many of your team mates and it's going to affect your way of thinking.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And that's when their mentors are supposed to step in and tell them not to sink to their enemies' level, that that dishonors their fallen friends' memories, etc., etc. Only the adult X-Men aren't saying that anymore because their leader is all about sinking to their enemies' level at this point.

 

[BoredGuy]

Well and that's the point of both the last arc of 'Wolverine' and this lil event. They're trying to make Logan change his ways a bit. He can regret and make up for his previous actions, seeing how far down the dark path they've gone. It would make sense for him to finally see a new young set of kids and snap out of the berserker mode long enough to say "ok, this needs to stop". It was even stated that X-Force will be changing mission statements somewhat, so perhaps theyre gunna ixnay the illing-kay. He is still being portrayed as a mindless killing machine in other places, which is unfortunate, but I consider this, these 3 books- UXF, WOLV, and Schism, to be his true story arc... that's why I just don't read his other appearances.

only time will tell I suppose

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Haha, yes, Wolverine's gonna stop killing people. I guess it's good to keep hope alive.

 

[Spider-Nerd]

Has Cyclops ever once, at any point in Schism, pointed the finger at Wolverine and said something to the effect of, "Maybe the kids wouldn't be so ready to kill if you didn't set such a f***ing terrible example by doing it yourself every waking moment of your life"? Because that's basically the crux of this argument. I don't care what Wolverine says, his actions--over decades now--have proven that he's down with anybody killing anybody else for just about any reason.

this

 

[El Bastardo]

Regarding that quoted section above, Aaron is rather clearly writing the subtext (and, in one instance, rather blatant text) as Wolverine - let's say recent Wolverine from the past decade, give or take, since I don't imagine Aaron would be trying to definitively weigh on Wolverine's entire life and history - doing all the dirty deeds he's done so that it doesn't fall on the kids to do it.

It isn't that he's too goodie-goodie suddenly, it's that all this bad junk is his cross to bear for the kids, not their cross to bear themselves. It's not perfect, and it might be a little heavy-handed, but it isn't wholly out of character and outside the bounds of how some writers have portrayed him in the past.

 

[Manic]

Wolverine doesn't like it for teenagers to kill, and he'll stab them in the gut to stop them if he has to. Just ask Rachel Summers.

 

[Ipodman]

Didn't he stab Bishop in front of everyone once... oh wait, that's Ultimate...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Regarding that quoted section above, Aaron is rather clearly writing the subtext (and, in one instance, rather blatant text) as Wolverine - let's say recent Wolverine from the past decade, give or take, since I don't imagine Aaron would be trying to definitively weigh on Wolverine's entire life and history - doing all the dirty deeds he's done so that it doesn't fall on the kids to do it.

It isn't that he's too goodie-goodie suddenly, it's that all this bad junk is his cross to bear for the kids, not their cross to bear themselves. It's not perfect, and it might be a little heavy-handed, but it isn't wholly out of character and outside the bounds of how some writers have portrayed him in the past.

Wolverine doesn't like it for teenagers to kill, and he'll stab them in the gut to stop them if he has to. Just ask Rachel Summers.

Yeah, it's not quite heavy-handed so much as stupidly hypocritical on Wolverine's part. I can understand how someone would come to that conclusion--that it's actually possible to bear the cross of happy-go-lucky murder in order to spare children from having to kill. But doing it right in front of the kids and not expecting them to continue that cycle of murder is just stupid. Wolverine is a stupid person under this reasoning.

 

[chamber-music]

the Hellfire Club crashes a museum gala something-or-other dedicated to mutants that the X-Men (plus Idie) made an appearance. She was the only one left standing cuz she was hiding so the only options were to run (Wolverine) or fight (Cyclops), but Idie is like 13-14 years old, from what i understand no combat training, and no control of her power. so for Cyclops to say "do what you have to do" put her in a position that could only have turned out bad, and Logan feels (and so do i) he had no right to ask that of her.

The Hellfire Club is made up of murdering 12 year olds now anyway

Not to mention the Hellfire Club was going to execute the innocent civilian guests.

Either Idie did something or those people would of been murdered in front of her. Idie wasn't upset or traumatised she killed the Hellfire guys either.

Hope's team hasn't had any training? Why not?

Wolverine was supposed to train them but he was too tired from being on so many teams and didn't get round to it(I'm not even joking)

 

[Manic]

I thought Hope was training her team herself. Hope has just as much combat experience and training as some of the adults, maybe more.

 

[Doomed_hero]

If they are trying to change tactics I am all for it. I was happy with Logan not being a mindless killer and all his friends like Nightcrawler and Storm stopping him and saying X-Men dont kill. I want that Logan back. I kinda wish Kurt did not get killed off cause he is a great leader and in some ways would work alot better then Wolverine in this arguement. I hope maybe Logan references him a bit more in it since everyone seems to have forgotten he ever existed.

 

[javi1024]

The Hellfire Club is made up of murdering 12 year olds now anyway

Not to mention the Hellfire Club was going to execute the innocent civilian guests.

Either Idie did something or those people would of been murdered in front of her. Idie wasn't upset or traumatised she killed the Hellfire guys either.

Wolverine was supposed to train them but he was too tired from being on so many teams and didn't get round to it(I'm not even joking)

i dont see how a 12 year old Hellfire makes any difference considering we read how twisted those kids are the last issue. not to mention they brought plenty of henchmen with them to the museum. and i don't see how you can say she wasnt upset or traumatized when Schism #4 opens with her saying "I smell like...burning skin." "I didn't mean to kill them." "I'm not sorry I [killed them] sir. I just wish I could stop hearing the screams in my head."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If they are trying to change tactics I am all for it. I was happy with Logan not being a mindless killer and all his friends like Nightcrawler and Storm stopping him and saying X-Men dont kill. I want that Logan back. I kinda wish Kurt did not get killed off cause he is a great leader and in some ways would work alot better then Wolverine in this arguement. I hope maybe Logan references him a bit more in it since everyone seems to have forgotten he ever existed.

Yeah. Yeah.

 

[chamber-music]

I thought Hope was training her team herself. Hope has just as much combat experience and training as some of the adults, maybe more.

Hopes training Nate Grey too

 

[Doomed_hero]

So if hope summers and Nate Grey started a relationship, would that be icky? Just random thought.

 

[Manic]

So if hope summers and Nate Grey started a relationship, would that be icky? Just random thought.

They're not remotely blood related. It would speak volumes for Hope to get in a relationship with a man who reminds her of her father, but that's not entirely unusual.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Is Nate really all that similar to Cable beyond genetics anyway? I've always thought of them as vastly different people who just happened to come from the same genetic stock.