X-Men - Part 3

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[Manic]

You guys all say Cyclops is more like Magneto and that he doesn't follow Charles' dream, but he's made the X-Men accepted superheroes, put them in a city that loves mutantkind, and hired PR people to improve the image of mutants with the national public.

He's still following Charles' dream. He just dropped the "no killing" rule.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You guys all say Cyclops is more like Magneto and that he doesn't follow Charles' dream, but he's made the X-Men accepted superheroes, put them in a city that loves mutantkind, and hired PR people to improve the image of mutants with the national public.

He's still following Charles' dream. He just dropped the "no killing" rule.

He isolated mutants even further from mankind by establishing Utopia as opposed to integrating them fully into society. He has the X-Men being active members in a city that is not a part of mainstream America. And he hired PR people because of the people who are on his team: Magneto, Namor, Colossus (now the Avatar of Cyttorak), Jubilee (now a vampire), Emma Frost, and other mutants who people don't trust.....for good reason. Not only that but it's not that he dropped the "no killing" rule, it's that he created a black ops assassination squad with X-Force and only disbanded it simply because he didn't want the Avengers to find out about it. He allies himself with villains such as Dracula. He refuses to give Wanda a fair chance.

I think that Cyclops' moves go completely against Charles' dreams.

 

[chamber-music]

Cyclops has become more battle hardened due to all the stuff his gone through. Archangel in Uncanny X-Force pretty much summed it up 'as soon as things got difficult Scott ditched Charles dream and started compromising'.

 

[JewishHobbit]

In Cyclops' defense...

He isolated mutants even further from mankind by establishing Utopia as opposed to integrating them fully into society.

He established Utopia to get his people out from under the tyranical thumb of Norman Osborn. He saw what was happening and where it was going and he got his people safe. To integrate them into society would have kept them in danger, so he moved them somewhere out of Osborn's jurisdiction where they can also be protected. It makes sense to me.

He has the X-Men being active members in a city that is not a part of mainstream America.

But remember, the X-Men and mutants in general aren't strictly American. There's nothing in Xavier's dream that says they have to be pleasing in America's eye but that they co-exist with humans. He moved them to San Francisco for that purpose and then to Utopia to protect them and the people of San Francisco, but even on Utopia he still keeps good relations with the people of San Fran... co-existing with them. He's fulfilling Xavier's dream.

And he hired PR people because of the people who are on his team: Magneto, Namor, Colossus (now the Avatar of Cyttorak), Jubilee (now a vampire), Emma Frost, and other mutants who people don't trust.....for good reason.

And this was a good move. It's hard to co-exist with humans if they fear the darker members, so a P.R. person helps establish the trust that's need to co-exist with a world that hates and fears them.

Not only that but it's not that he dropped the "no killing" rule, it's that he created a black ops assassination squad with X-Force and only disbanded it simply because he didn't want the Avengers to find out about it.

X-Force is really the only thing he's done that goes against Xavier's dream. I understand his purposes for it but it's certainly the middle ground between Xavier and Magneto.

He allies himself with villains such as Dracula. He refuses to give Wanda a fair chance.

The Dracula thing is him keeping his word, which in a round about way is actually noble. As for Wanda, that was a very personal issue and not everyone can be a boyscout about it. I don't really mind his response to this, though I do wish it was toned down a bit. Honestly, Heinburg's characterizations of several characters has been way off, Cyclops and Wolverine among them.

I think that Cyclops' moves go completely against Charles' dreams.

I think the only one was X-Force and he decided to stop that (no matter the reasons) so he's back on track as far as I'm concerned.

 

[hippie_hunter]

He established Utopia to get his people out from under the tyranical thumb of Norman Osborn. He saw what was happening and where it was going and he got his people safe. To integrate them into society would have kept them in danger, so he moved them somewhere out of Osborn's jurisdiction where they can also be protected. It makes sense to me.

1. The United States government would never recognize the sovereignty of Utopia the way they do with Native American tribes. Especially after the way he did it. So if the US government wanted to, they still could have sent Norman Osborn to kick their ass but with the full support of H.A.M.M.E.R., U.S military, and entire 50 State Initiative.

2. By creating Utopia, Scott has further segregated the mutant population from humanity. The vast majority of mutants live in Utopia.

3. By creating a mutant haven filled with former terrorists, former super criminals, along with Atlantis being underneath Utopia (which constantly threatens the United States with invasion), etc. people are going to be wary of what is going on in that island separated from everyone.

But remember, the X-Men and mutants in general aren't strictly American. There's nothing in Xavier's dream that says they have to be pleasing in America's eye but that they co-exist with humans. He moved them to San Francisco for that purpose and then to Utopia to protect them and the people of San Francisco, but even on Utopia he still keeps good relations with the people of San Fran... co-existing with them. He's fulfilling Xavier's dream.

They may not be strictly American, but in order to show them co-existing with society that means that they should try and integrate with general American society since that is where they live. He moved the X-Men to a city that is barely American in culture and style. New York City, Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Philadelphia, Dallas, Atlanta, Detroit, New Orleans, those are all distinctly American cities that would have shown the X-Men integrating with the society of the nation they live in.

And they probably would have been just as receptive. New York City had a district called Mutant Town for crying out loud. Seattle is one of the most progressive cities in the United States. Dallas is one of the most diverse cities in the United States being 42% Hispanic, 29% white, and 25% black. Or New Orleans which is over 60% black and you can have the X-Men being a major part of the community by rebuilding the city, along with the major Voodoo and Catholic influences that would deliver some great Nightcrawler stories.

Instead they moved to the only city in the United States that is more European than American. Moving the X-Men to a city like San Fransisco isn't them co-existing. That's them still fleeing from hateful elements instead of confronting them. Did Martin Luther King, Jr. flee from the South when the going got tough? Hell no! And he didn't have superpowers.

And this was a good move. It's hard to co-exist with humans if they fear the darker members, so a P.R. person helps establish the trust that's need to co-exist with a world that hates and fears them.

Now this I'll agree with.

The Dracula thing is him keeping his word, which in a round about way is actually noble.

Except it's ****ing Dracula. He's a murderous monster who has killed thousands.

As for Wanda, that was a very personal issue and not everyone can be a boyscout about it. I don't really mind his response to this, though I do wish it was toned down a bit. Honestly, Heinburg's characterizations of several characters has been way off, Cyclops and Wolverine among them.

Reason should still prevail over emotion. Charles Xavier would have at least listened to Wanda before deciding to automatically punish her.

I think the only one was X-Force and he decided to stop that (no matter the reasons) so he's back on track as far as I'm concerned.

Except he didn't go back on track. Scott said that he has no regrets about X-Force and if he wasn't afraid of the general public and the Avengers finding out about it, he'd probably would have kept them around.

 

[Specter313]

You guys all say Cyclops is more like Magneto and that he doesn't follow Charles' dream, but he's made the X-Men accepted superheroes, put them in a city that loves mutantkind, and hired PR people to improve the image of mutants with the national public.

He's still following Charles' dream. He just dropped the "no killing" rule.

Exactly

 

[Havok83]

Im with Hippie Hunter. Cyclops has become Magneto in so many ways

 

[Manic]

hippie hunter, speaking as someone who lives in the Bay Area, I ask you: what the HELL does "mainstream America" mean? As far as I can tell, San Francisco is far from being some sort of underground secret.

 

[roach]

You guys all say Cyclops is more like Magneto and that he doesn't follow Charles' dream, but he's made the X-Men accepted superheroes, put them in a city that loves mutantkind, and hired PR people to improve the image of mutants with the national public.

He's still following Charles' dream. He just dropped the "no killing" rule.

The X-men becoming accepted superheroes is something that happens to them every few years...almost as on cue as Jean dying.
They were accepted as heroes at the end of Fall of the Mutants...I seem to recall NYC throwing a parade for X-factor.

 

[hippie_hunter]

hippie hunter, speaking as someone who lives in the Bay Area, I ask you: what the HELL does "mainstream America" mean? As far as I can tell, San Francisco is far from being some sort of underground secret.

I'm not saying that it's not part of America. It's most definitely American. But politically and socially it is far more progressive than the more moderate mainstream America. It's the progressive bastion of the United States. It's often been called more of a European city than an American one. And it has built up and thrived on that image. Not that this is a bad thing.

It really gives the city it's charm IMO. It feels more cosmopolitan than other American cities. It has a certain joie-de-vivre that just doesn't exist anywhere else in the United States. It's more environmentally aware. The architecture and organization of the city is just beautiful like a European city.

 

[roach]

hippie hunter, speaking as someone who lives in the Bay Area, I ask you: what the HELL does "mainstream America" mean? As far as I can tell, San Francisco is far from being some sort of underground secret.

thats cause you are one of themt:

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The X-men becoming accepted superheroes is something that happens to them every few years...almost as on cue as Jean dying.
They were accepted as heroes at the end of Fall of the Mutants...I seem to recall NYC throwing a parade for X-factor.

Yeah, that's what Whedon's Astonishing X-Men started out as and what Alan Davis' run on Uncanny X-Men from a few years ago (when the X-Men first moved to San Fran but before they established Utopia) was about. They even got badges for the latter.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm not saying that it's not part of America. It's most definitely American. But politically and socially it is far more progressive than the more moderate mainstream America. It's the progressive bastion of the United States. It's often been called more of a European city than an American one. And it has built up and thrived on that image. Not that this is a bad thing.

It really gives the city it's charm IMO. It feels more cosmopolitan than other American cities. It has a certain joie-de-vivre that just doesn't exist anywhere else in the United States. It's more environmentally aware. The architecture and organization of the city is just beautiful like a European city.

If San Fran is more progressive than the rest of America then isn't that the perfect place for the X-Men to go? They'd be more accepting and therefor potentially be a first step toward showing the rest of the country that humans and mutants CAN co-exist? It'd be a good way to ease into that in my opinion so I still call San Fran a good idea (one of the few Fraction actually had to be honest... when it comes to X-Men anyway).

 

[Havok83]

It'd be a good way to ease into that in my opinion so I still call San Fran a good idea (one of the few Fraction actually had to be honest... when it comes to X-Men anyway).

Im not sure I would give Fraction that credit. Brubaker was the one that moved the team to SF. His last solo arc in UXM did that

 

[Manic]

With the exception of the Sisterhood arc, the X-Men's initial move to San Francisco was just so fresh and crispy. Uncanny's "SFX" and "Lovelorn," Young X-Men's final 7 issues, and Legacy's wrapping up of its Xavier arcs were all good. Things went downhill when they moved to Utopia, but (surprise surprise) things picked up a little when they partially moved back into SF after "Second Coming."

 

[Panthro]

Just for the Hell of it -

 

[Havok83]

Like this?

LOL

 

[Manic]

Charles is rocking that sash.

 

[hippie_hunter]

If San Fran is more progressive than the rest of America then isn't that the perfect place for the X-Men to go? They'd be more accepting and therefor potentially be a first step toward showing the rest of the country that humans and mutants CAN co-exist? It'd be a good way to ease into that in my opinion so I still call San Fran a good idea (one of the few Fraction actually had to be honest... when it comes to X-Men anyway).

Except the rest of the country would just see it as San Fransisco acting as San Fransisco. I think Seattle or Los Angeles would have been the best places to go. Both are rather progressive cities (Seattle in particular), but are more mainstream American than San Fransisco.

 

[Anubis]

They are?

When I think of Seattle I think of Frasier, rain, Kurt Cobain, and the Super Sonics. (who left.)

But Progressive city? Eh.

And L.A. is racist as hell.

 

[storyteller]

Thats it, I want the the current version of X-force to be made into a movie. Screw all the side projects and continuity. Get Jackman and Reynolds on a film made from Xforce. Literally do it page by page!.

 

[hippie_hunter]

They are?

When I think of Seattle I think of Frasier, rain, Kurt Cobain, and the Super Sonics. (who left.)

But Progressive city? Eh.

True, but it's a city that has also taken in progressive ideology. But they aren't as extreme as San Fransisco.

And L.A. is racist as hell.

It's the second largest city in the United States that is often ignored in the Marvel Universe. And with the racism in L.A. it would be a great story for the X-Men to deal with.

 

[Anubis]

Sure, it would be interesting......but if I were the X-Men, I'd be trying to find a less racist city.