X3 Forum Debate #3: "Should Cyclops and/or Jean Return?"

[X-Maniac]

DEBATE OF THE WEEK NO. 3

Scott Summers and Jean Grey - Cyclops and Marvel Girl/Phoenix – one of comicbook lore’s most famous and enduring couples.

In one of the most controversial departures from the source material, Jean Grey’s Dark Phoenix persona appeared to kill Cyclops in X-Men The Last Stand. We heard Professor Xavier tell Jean ‘You killed the man you loved’; we saw Scott’s gravestone at the end. Many fans were outraged - for some it totally ruined the movie to see Cyclops killed and Wolverine take over. Even for those who enjoyed the movie, this was at best a very risky move, at worst the biggest mis-step in the movie and/or franchise. Even though Cyclops had limited screentime in X2, to go as far as killing him off seemed to hint at either politics and petty revenge (because Marsden had followed Bryan Singer to the Superman Returns project), or interference by studio suits who cared nothing for the source material and simply wanted Wolverine to hog the limelight once again.

But did Cyclops really die? His death was never shown. Could he have survived? Should he have survived?

Would you want either Jean or Cyclops, or both, to return in any future X-movie? Or is it time to move on and give screentime to other characters (Gambit, Emma Frost, Bishop, for instance)? Would it cheapen the events of X3 if Jean and/or Cyclops returned? Would critics and audiences groan and be turned off, would it be too soap opera?

Should they come back? If so, why and how?

Some might say that if Cyclops can be so easily and quickly killed, then he can be easily and quickly shown to be still alive; and that a Phoenix is by its nature something that dies only to be reborn. But remember these are movies with simpler, more condensed versions of long, involved comicbook storylines and try to consider mainstream audience reaction in your arguments rather than using pure fanboy-ism.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

IMO, Phoenix/Jean should stay dead. It would be a little laughable if every movie Jean dies, and on the next, she's back rocking an even redder, wilder hairstyle.

Cyclops, however, is essential. He hasn't been developed. We still don't know who he is, why he is there, etc. His comeback isn't that hard to explain.

The most obvious choice would be that, on the moment Phoenix tries to kill him, she is so enchanted by her own power that she simply forgets she was controlling his power. (of course this corny explanation shouldn't be on the movie. Just a flashback showing his blast coming in full mode) He blasts her with all his power, and they are thrown in opposite directions.

This would explain quite a few things in X3.
-Why is Jean on the floor when Storm finds her?
The fall, she went unconscious after the huge blast. (this also shows Cyke isn't a lil' weak mutant). Since her power comes from subconscious, her mind would still be working in dormant levels, which causes the stones and water to hover around.

-Why does Jean thinks she killed Scott?
As we are led to believe in the lab scene, the Real Jean has no consciousness of what she does while she's Phoenix. This is why, when she comes back to herself, she asks where is she.
Well, since on the fatal moment, the woman kissing Cyclops is Phoenix, and not Jean, she couldn't remember. But she thinks she killed Scott because well, all the evidence points so.

Why does the Professor thinks Scott is dead?
The blast throws Cyclops away, and he falls in an almost comatose state. Professor wouldn't be able to sense him. Also, on the moment Phoenix is attacked, she sends a huge telepathic scream, which confuses and "hides" the real facts to Professor X.



How would this be worked in an eventual X4?
When Storm finds out he's alive, she would be the epitome of guilty. She would regret saving Jean for a moment, and ask for Cyclops' forgiveness since she left him out there, without further searching. He, as a brother, understands everything and knows that, since they are X-men, they will always be exposed to death. He will be shocked by the deaths of Professor and Jean, and then rely on leading the team as a way to keep Xavier's dream and forget the biggest loss of his life.

Alo, he could be ffound by Sinister in the beginning of the movie, still on a coma state. Sinister takes care of him, and blah blah blah.


This way, the first half of the movie would rely on Storm, her issues and her leadership. The second half would have Cyclops and Storm sharing the field leadership as true partners.

 

[Angamb]

shouldn't this be in the sequels board?

 

[04nbod]

shouldn't this be in the sequels board?

its our discussion of the week.


as for the question- i want cyclops to return only for it to be revealed he wasn't dead in the first place but badly injured only to be revived by experimental drugs from Mr. Sinister.(who also helped create the cure) and my plot would revolve around thatt:

 

[BMM]

Cyclops: I would like to see Cyclops in another X-Men film, but realistically, I don't see it happening... at least not in a decent way after the events of The Last Stand. I know a lot of people envision an unconscious Cyclops being retrieved by Mr. Sinister... but I just don't see the storyline going anywhere.

In so far as the introduction of Emma Frost as a potential love interest, she would probably just come across as a blonde Jean Grey with more attitude and pomp for those who aren’t familiar with her.


Jean: She should stay dead. Her returning yet again would be comical... Besides, hasn't Famke said she's done with the character?

Also, I don’t see Madelyne Pryor or Rachel Summers working. While both are normally tied to Jean Grey (which wouldn’t work if Jean Grey is dead), I don’t see their storylines as particularly viable unless someone gets extremely creative.

In short, I think both Cyclops and Jean are kind of done for, and some members of production seem more concerned with introducing the likes of Gambit than continuing the adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

 

[chaseter]

I want Jean to stay dead but a vengefull, angry, remorsefull, etc... Cyclops to come back and develop a relationship with Emma Frost.

 

[cronosred]

Jean should stay dead as for Cyclops I wouldn't mind him being alive but I just don't think it would work because although they didn't show him die there are several referances made about him being dead one which is made by Professor X who is supposed to be one of the strongest telepaths in the world so honestly I just don't think they could bring him back without it being laughable for the audience.

 

[phoenix_force]

keep um both dead
bring anyone else back in an x-men movie would be terrible

i'd also like Xavier to stay dead and the after credits scene ignored
X4 should be about Storm ,Beast and the school

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm torn, because on one hand, you can't just go around removing core characters and switching them around.

But on the other hand, the franchise loses credibility if everytime a character dies, they just come back.

When Jean did it, that's part of her arc. Being reborn as the Phoenix is well, part of her character.

But if Cyclops does it, it will just become pretty cheesy and cliche.

That's why I don't want to see an X-Men 4, because whether the conclussions were good or not, these characters and this world was brought to closure. It wouldn't be a natural continuation if they made a 4th movie.

But no, they shouldn't return, and reasons why:

Cyclops:

While he is a vital member of the X-Men that didn't get the treatment he deserved (although I believe people are a lot more negative towards his X-Men, X2 treatment than what is warranted), you can't just keep bringing characters back from the dead. Yea yea yea, spare me the "we never saw him die" lecture, X-Men: The Last Stand established that he died and he never came back. To bring him back would become laughable. Just because certain things work in the comics doesn't mean they'll work on the big screen. They are different mediums, and what works in one doesn't always work in the other.

Jean:

Jean's power isn't to return from the dead. She's a telekinetic, with telepathic powers. Her survival was explained by the fact that her powers and instincts kept her alive underneath Alkali Lake. In X-Men: The Last Stand, she allowed herself to be killed. Her powers weren't keeping her alive this time.

No, neither character should return in a future film. And it is because of this reason that a future film should not be made.

The ongoing story of the trilogy has been brought to closure. There's nothing left of that story to tell. It's come to it's natural end. Continuing this world would be an unnatural continuation, and it would not be able to include vital, core characters like Cyclops and Jean because their arcs have been brought to an end. Bringing them back just for the sake of bringing them back would turn the franchise into a joke.

 

[britrogue]

I'm sorry, but I want them both back. I still haven't seen Phoenix imo, and Cyke has been wasted so far

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Edit: Double Post.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I'm torn, because on one hand, you can't just go around removing core characters and switching them around.

But on the other hand, the franchise loses credibility if everytime a character dies, they just come back.

When Jean did it, that's part of her arc. Being reborn as the Phoenix is well, part of her character.

But if Cyclops does it, it will just become pretty cheesy and cliche.

That's why I don't want to see an X-Men 4, because whether the conclussions were good or not, these characters and this world was brought to closure. It wouldn't be a natural continuation if they made a 4th movie.

But no, they shouldn't return, and reasons why:

Cyclops:

While he is a vital member of the X-Men that didn't get the treatment he deserved (although I believe people are a lot more negative towards his X-Men, X2 treatment than what is warranted), you can't just keep bringing characters back from the dead. Yea yea yea, spare me the "we never saw him die" lecture, X-Men: The Last Stand established that he died and he never came back. To bring him back would become laughable. Just because certain things work in the comics doesn't mean they'll work on the big screen. They are different mediums, and what works in one doesn't always work in the other.

Jean:

Jean's power isn't to return from the dead. She's a telekinetic, with telepathic powers. Her survival was explained by the fact that her powers and instincts kept her alive underneath Alkali Lake. In X-Men: The Last Stand, she allowed herself to be killed. Her powers weren't keeping her alive this time.

No, neither character should return in a future film. And it is because of this reason that a future film should not be made.

The ongoing story of the trilogy has been brought to closure. There's nothing left of that story to tell. It's come to it's natural end. Continuing this world would be an unnatural continuation, and it would not be able to include vital, core characters like Cyclops and Jean because their arcs have been brought to an end. Bringing them back just for the sake of bringing them back would turn the franchise into a joke.

No offense, but the franchise turned into a joke with Xavier returning. If they were going to keep characters dead they should've done it. Hence why people are saying it would not hurt to bring back Cyclops at all.

Again, we never saw him die, so who's to say that bringing him back would be laughable? I agree that one continues to bring back Jean would become cliche and corny.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

No offense, but the franchise turned into a joke with Xavier returning. If they were going to keep characters dead they should've done it. Hence why people are saying it would not hurt to bring back Cyclops at all.

Again, we never saw him die, so who's to say that bringing him back would be laughable? I agree that one continues to bring back Jean would become cliche and corny.

Because despite the fact that we never saw Cyclops blow into chunks, it was pretty well established in the film that he was killed.

Bringing him back would just be bad.

I also agree that the after-the-credits scene with Xavier was pretty weak also. But I think it's safe to say that was done more for shock value than any other purpose, so it's easier for me to dismiss it.

 

[grey_jeanie]

I hope it's a remake with the original team when they are young and just starting out. Therefore Jean and Cyclops will be there too.

 

[Cassandra581]

I think that if it is done correctly that Cyclops could be brought back for another movie. Jean/Phoenix can stay dead. It worked for Spock in Star Trek. In can work for Cyclops in the X-Men.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

But I think it's safe to say that was done more for shock value than any other purpose, so it's easier for me to dismiss it.

So was Cyke's death. t:

Personally Would want the pair to come back just so FOX would have the cojones to admit - if only indirectly - they f***d it up badly.

Do understand why it would be a problem from a narrative POV, but what the hell.

*Realistic* comic book-inspired flicks were one hell of an oxymoron in the first place anyway. *shrugs*

 

[Bastila]

I want both back or I shall cry forever lol.

Scott didn't die, they didn't film him dieing so they could bring him back, I'm sure a producer said something like that.
So his part is left open as no one knows what happened to him.

Jean has to come back, and both of them should have better story lines this time and Scott should be back as leader and Jean should be back, even if she came back without Phoenix just I want them back, it isn't X-men without them well for me it isn't.
Plus I hate Logan.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Sadly, I think too much damage has been done to bring back either of these characters. Truth is, there should have been only one casualty on the X-Men's side--and that's Charles Xavier.

Jean and Scott should have been able to finish what they started alongside Storm, Logan, Rogue and the newbies.

 

[Mike059jig]

Cyclops: I would like to see Cyclops in another X-Men film, but realistically, I don't see it happening... at least not in a decent way after the events of The Last Stand. I know a lot of people envision an unconscious Cyclops being retrieved by Mr. Sinister... but I just don't see the storyline going anywhere.

In so far as the introduction of Emma Frost as a potential love interest, she would probably just come across as a blonde Jean Grey with more attitude and pomp for those who aren’t familiar with her.


Jean: She should stay dead. Her returning yet again would be comical... Besides, hasn't Famke said she's done with the character?

Also, I don’t see Madelyne Pryor or Rachel Summers working. While both are normally tied to Jean Grey (which wouldn’t work if Jean Grey is dead), I don’t see their storylines as particularly viable unless someone gets extremely creative.

In short, I think both Cyclops and Jean are kind of done for, and some members of production seem more concerned with introducing the likes of Gambit than continuing the adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.

I agree

 

[storm-x-fan]

I want Cyclops to come back, and Jean to become Madelyne now...

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I want them both back. Their characters were both down right disgraced in X-Men: The Last Stand.

 

[Karategirlx2001]

Both characters deserve a proper return and the due respect that was sadly lacking in X3.

 

[X-Maniac]

Well, this thread was my idea, so it's time to have my say before it closes tomorrow...

I think that it's probably better to leave both characters dead and move on.

However, a way for Scott to come back is to have him comatose and 'off the radar' by being in captivity somewhere (Sinister?). Jean's powers could return in a cloned genetic experiment using her DNA (the clone would be called Rachel or Madelyne and, since it didn't have mental blocks, it would have natural control over the power with no instability).

Or perhaps both Jean and Scott are dead and maybe a clone is made with DNA from both Scott and Jean. If the clone had Jean's powers and Scott's solar-powered blasts, that might be a way to show a firebird. The clone could telekinetically shape the solar radiation into a firebird rather than emit it as eye blasts. The DNA could be stored in the mansion's medical facility, or at Muir Island, and then stolen by someone...

Those are the only ways I see working... But they could appear to be a bit soap opera. I am torn about this. I feel the Superman and Batman franchises are over-milking the characters and re-doing the same stuff over and over so if the audience can accept those, they should be able to accept more X-Men. But it could come across as poor if not done properly.

 

[xstormfan]

they should stay dead

 

[Bastila]

I want them both back. Their characters were both down right disgraced in X-Men: The Last Stand.

So true, bring them back and give them the good stroy and writing they deserve, its like they where just thrown to the side and not cared about.