X3's ending vs. Superman Return's

[tonytr1687]

Indeed, the same cannot be said. The details of how the Daily Planet should look, how the fortress should look, etc, are all there - I was looking at Superman Returns: The Visual Guide in a bookshop today - but the problem is that the details of production design are at the expense of the story. The film is straining so hard to be visually impressive that it forgets to make the story match up.

For instance - Superman and Clark are gone the exact same length of time, but no-one suspects anything. Superman just vanishes, telling no one. Lois, despite being a tenacious reporter in the media industry, is unaware of the remains of Krypton being discovered. Lois was heartbroken by Superman's disappearance (driven by bitterness to write a prize-winning article) but had met and had sex with Richard quickly enough for Richard to believe he is Jason's father. Lex creates craggy black rock that no one would ever want to buy. And the opening sequence was dreadful - an old widow who dies within seconds (so no need for any emotional engagement with her, the audience is lured in to a scene which is then slammed shut on them, no need to care about this old woman, she's done her part, she's dead, move on..). And the utterly ridiculous scene with that kid screaming when he throws his wig at her - what child would squeal like that over a hairpiece.

This wasn't Superman, this was Superglance - a film of people doing allegedly meaningful glances and strange staring. Clark sees Lois's article, he sees the picture with Richard, he is told of Lex's freedom because Superman was absent... but no emotional conflict, no drama, just lots of people moving their eyes from side to side.

The irony of Lex winning freedom because of Superman's absence was totally unexplored (never mind the apparent idea that Lex staged the apparent discovery of Krypton's remains as a ploy to gain freedom, a point entirely absent from the movie). The film should surely have opened with Lex's court case and Superman flying away from earth, then flashed forward five years.

So much opportunity squandered and missed. A good story melting away as i watched, the result as barren and lifeless as Lex's new island.

Conversely, X3 sits at the other end of the spectrum, packing in the emotion, the epic scale and comicbook feel... but lacking the attention to detail and subtlety and breathing space in places... These two movies are very different. Neither succeeded entirely. But I can forgive a few details in X3 more than i can forgive the sombre understated dullness of SR. And it seems the box office agrees - they want something epic and emotional with energy and adventure. The behind-the-scenes detail of SR is no good if the end result is lacking.

Superman and Clark being gone the same time and returning the same time: thats like complaining that nobody notices Clark is Superman behind the glasses...suspension of disbelief. And if you'll notice there are two moments in the film where ppl consider the possibility that Clark is Superman. When Jason looks at Supes on the tv and then Clark next to him, he starts wheezing. Then when Jason and Lois are talking in the Daily Planet about Clark being 6'4 and whatnot.

Superman vanishes, telling no one - And how is this a flaw? It was already explained that he didnt know how to say goodbye.

Lois doesnt know about Krypton's remains - ohh woop-dee-doo, and really I didnt even get the impression that she didnt know about it. It wasnt really addressed and is an incredibly minor detail and therefore an incredibly minor nitpick.

Lois going from heartbroken to engaged with child - Lois is the type that hides her feelings. She puts on a brave face even when deep down she's still heartbroken. She forces herself to get over that kind of heartbreak and so I'm sure she got with Jason in order to do that. I'll admit this part takes a little suspension of disbelief but it's still a nitpick. You actually have to dissect the details to find a flaw, so it really aint much of one.

Lex's scheme - It's hinted that Lex is slightly insane. Lex even admits himself that the "craggy black rock" is a little too alien, lacks that human touch etc. Plus the whole scheme was mostly done to lure out Superman and kill him.

The opening scene - wow, you're really grasping now. We're not supposed to be emotionally invested in this old, dying woman. The scene's only purpose was to establish how Lex got his money and his boat, and that is by swindling a dying widow's fortune. Another example of Singer paying attention to detail. He could have easily just showed Lex already rich again but instead went to lengths to show how he got that money.

The wig scene - grasping once again. Nitpicking yet again. You're complaining about the way the little boy squeals? You're kidding right? He's a kid. Little kids do the damndest things and get scared pretty easily. Cant believe you used this as an example of a flaw...

Lex's court appeal - First off it was never even hinted at that Lex staged the news of Krypton's remains. How would he even do that when he was in prison? Now you're just making stuff up. I agree it would have been cool had the movie opened with Lex's court case and Supes flying off to Krypton, but not seeing those things didnt ruin the film. The irony you mention WAS explored. Thats why there were two conversations dedicated to it. Anything more than that would be overkill for what is something that occurred in the past.

X3 epic? X3 emotional? Jean's 5 minute death scene in X2 was more emotional than all of X3 put together. And this epic quality you speak of, I didnt see it anywhere. I saw it all over Superman. And not just in the special effects but in the attention to character development, the fact that the stakes were much higher with over half the country being threatened instead of a mere 6 mutants, who by the way somehow defeated a whole army all by themselves. Right, it's so not obvious how night becomes day in a matter of seconds. It's so not obvious that Magneto had no reason to move that whole bridge just so he could cross to Alcatraz. It's not obvious how ridiculous it is that Rogue gave up her powers just so she could have sex. It's not obvious that Logan has known Jean for a mere few weeks and then confesses his love for her. Or that in the midst of everything happening the X-men somehow managed to stage a grand funeral for Xavier, and ohh! Damn they forgot to include their old friend Cyclops in the ceremony. Or that Logan is able to heal massive amounts of tissue and skin in seconds when its been shown before that something so serious can nearly kill him. Or that instead of using her powers to fight Callisto Storm instead opts for hand-to-hand combat. Real smart of her huh? Or how Angel goes from hating his wings so much that he wants to cut them off to outright rejecting the cure to the point that he jumps out of a window to avoid it? Hmm real attention to character there...I guess he just woke up that day and decided he liked his wings now. X3 managed to be too light-hearted for its subject matter AND dull at the same time. It managed to move too quick and move too slow at the same time.

Oh and you're right, SR was undersated. Singer thanks you for the compliment.

 

[BMM]

This wasn't Superman, this was Superglance - a film of people doing allegedly meaningful glances and strange staring. Clark sees Lois's article, he sees the picture with Richard, he is told of Lex's freedom because Superman was absent... but no emotional conflict, no drama, just lots of people moving their eyes from side to side.

I find there are equal amounts of staring by major characters in both films when better things could have been done.

 

[X-Maniac]

X3 epic? X3 emotional? Jean's 5 minute death scene in X2 was more emotional than all of X3 put together. And this epic quality you speak of, I didnt see it anywhere. I saw it all over Superman. And not just in the special effects but in the attention to character development, the fact that the stakes were much higher with over half the country being threatened instead of a mere 6 mutants, who by the way somehow defeated a whole army all by themselves. Right, it's so not obvious how night becomes day in a matter of seconds. It's so not obvious that Magneto had no reason to move that whole bridge just so he could cross to Alcatraz. It's not obvious how ridiculous it is that Rogue gave up her powers just so she could have sex. It's not obvious that Logan has known Jean for a mere few weeks and then confesses his love for her. Or that in the midst of everything happening the X-men somehow managed to stage a grand funeral for Xavier, and ohh! Damn they forgot to include their old friend Cyclops in the ceremony. Or that Logan is able to heal massive amounts of tissue and skin in seconds when its been shown before that something so serious can nearly kill him. Or that instead of using her powers to fight Callisto Storm instead opts for hand-to-hand combat. Real smart of her huh? Or how Angel goes from hating his wings so much that he wants to cut them off to outright rejecting the cure to the point that he jumps out of a window to avoid it? Hmm real attention to character there...I guess he just woke up that day and decided he liked his wings now. X3 managed to be too light-hearted for its subject matter AND dull at the same time. It managed to move too quick and move too slow at the same time.

Oh and you're right, SR was undersated. Singer thanks you for the compliment.

Ironic that when I raise points about SR that I am 'grasping' or 'nitpicking' and lacking 'suspension of disbelief' and yet you then provide a similar list of points! Sanctimonious or what!

Each of your points has been explained and countered on here numerous times, i won't go over all of them again. But I will point out that Angel doesn't hate his wings, he is afraid - afraid of his father's reaction as much as anything... 10 years later, he is an adult who's been hiding his wings all that time and has come to accept them...it's all about wanting to fit in, to be accepted. Similarly Rogue wants true acceptance from Bobby rather than him trying to work around it (as he said in X2), it isn't just about sex, it's about closeness and completeness, about the removal of an obstacle to a 'normal relationship'. And Storm does use her powers to fight Callisto - her first move is to fling her into the house with a lightning bolt (with Callisto getting up straight away and showing she is physically resistant), her last move is to electrocute her with a lightning bombardment that was intensified by metal fencing.. between those times, Callisto kept Storm far too occupied to allow her to begin summoning elemental phenomena...

Superman should never be understated. This is a superhero movie, people want much more than introspective, leaden moments.... The dark, restrained costume (which I thought was okay) was an ominous sign of a dark and restrained movie that has been a box office disappointment.

 

[ntcrawler]

I find there are equal amounts of staring by major characters in both films when better things could have been done.

I think he's trying to explain the above-mentioned contradictions and plot errors to Jean.

 

[XCharlieX]

I liked both flicks so i cant pit them against each other much except to say Superman Returns had a lot more meat.

 

[ntcrawler]

there are two moments in the film where ppl consider the possibility that Clark is Superman. When Jason looks at Supes on the tv and then Clark next to him, he starts wheezing. Then when Jason and Lois are talking in the Daily Planet about Clark being 6'4 and whatnot.

And then this part is never again touched. I thought that despite her memory blocks, after Superman II Lois would be suspicious again, since in Superman II she worked along similar lines of reasoning to discover his secret identity.

Lois doesnt know about Krypton's remains - ohh woop-dee-doo, and really I didnt even get the impression that she didnt know about it. It wasnt really addressed and is an incredibly minor detail and therefore an incredibly minor nitpick.

Even if she knew about it, she wouldn't forgive him for flying away without saying goodbye. The only part this would change was she wouldn't call BS on him when he tries to explain his reasons later.

Lex's scheme - It's hinted that Lex is slightly insane. Lex even admits himself that the "craggy black rock" is a little too alien, lacks that human touch etc. Plus the whole scheme was mostly done to lure out Superman and kill him.

He's been insane since Superman: The Movie. Don't you remember his insane plan? The Crime of the Century? To cause an artificial earthquake, then sink California in order to turn Arizona into beachfront property? Marina Del Lex ring a bell?

The opening scene - wow, you're really grasping now. We're not supposed to be emotionally invested in this old, dying woman. The scene's only purpose was to establish how Lex got his money and his boat, and that is by swindling a dying widow's fortune.

Exactly. We're not supposed to care about her, just like Lex didn't care about her! She was just a plot device to acquire the resources that Lex needed to implement his latest and greatest scheme. Give a damn just long enough for her to sign that document, and then viola!

The wig scene - grasping once again. Nitpicking yet again. You're complaining about the way the little boy squeals? You're kidding right? He's a kid. Little kids do the damndest things and get scared pretty easily. Cant believe you used this as an example of a flaw...

He was as disgusted with Lex's appearance and behavior as the rest of us are supposed to be. How often to you encounter someone who takes his hair off and tosses it at you? Wouldn't you freak out a little too? Try it sometime!

X3 epic? X3 emotional? Jean's 5 minute death scene in X2 was more emotional than all of X3 put together. And this epic quality you speak of, I didnt see it anywhere.

I couldn't agree more. I knew after Jean got rid of Scott that she was pretty much doomed. Her death was in no way suspensful or a surprise. The only thing that surprised me was that 1) no one even remotely tried to save her or reach out to her and 2) They used the Cure on Magneto, but not on her.
You can debate this all you want, but the way it was set up in the film made it clear that she was one of the people on the checklist meant to die, and by God they were going to bury her no matter what. I cried at the end of X2 because it was so emotional and real. I only cried at the end of X3 because I felt sorry for what the writers did to these chars.

I saw it all over Superman. And not just in the special effects but in the attention to character development, the fact that the stakes were much higher with over half the country being threatened instead of a mere 6 mutants, who by the way somehow defeated a whole army all by themselves.

what surprised me was just how close to the bottom of the barrel they were scraping for resources to fight against Magneto's army. You would figure they'd at least have some other connections to rely on Than just 3 adults and 3 noobs.

Real smart of her huh? Or how Angel goes from hating his wings so much that he wants to cut them off to outright rejecting the cure to the point that he jumps out of a window to avoid it? Hmm real attention to character there...I guess he just woke up that day and decided he liked his wings now.

Well you can only squeeze in so much into a proverbial 2-scene story arc

X3 managed to be too light-hearted for its subject matter AND dull at the same time. It managed to move too quick and move too slow at the same time.

It also managed to mix a feeling of doom with light-heartedness, and done in bad taste. like cracking jokes at a funeral. the only time you really felt the impact of the subject matter and the intensity of the situation was in the trailers. You have 2 major characters dead. 3 if you count Jean and what came back as not being Jean. And how does it impact the mansion? Are the students distraught and upset? Yes, but for other reasons. Kitty doesn't miss Dr Grey or Mister Summers, she misses snow... And Rogue doesn't miss Mr Summers or Dr Grey either, she wants intimacy. She saved their lives in X2 when she flew that Jet, they made her feel a member of the family and have a place, and now she's going to run off again. Jeez, couldn't she at least wait until AFTER Alcatraz to take the cure? Just in case she might be needed by her teammates?

 

[Drago]

Oh do shut up. It's embarrassing.

For the record, I don't think Superman had a good ending. The Christ allegory of disappearing from the tomb was a little unecessary, and carried little weight, save for bunch of gawking individuals such as yourself, basking in pomposity of it all.

Great film, yes, but good ending? No, albeit better than X3's.

I don't think Supes ending was made to show him as a Christ figure (or any other religious savior)- it was good him dissapearing from the hospital the way he did (could you imagine Superman waking up and changing from scrubs back into his Supersuit?)... the only other thing resembling Christ was his fall after throwing new krypton, but that's just the way a body would fall. That would be the same thing as saying that Spidey 2 when he's carried through the train is to show him in the same light as Christ.

Here's the symbolism I got out of it. Singer wanted to show Supes being alone... he used the crystals to communicate with his family (the only ones who really understand Kal-El), but in order to save everyone from Lex's plan he had to throw those relationships away forever... he was truly alone at that moment, and there was Superman's symbolic death. When Lois told him that he had a son, he was symbolically brought back to life. The symbolism was about relationships and being alone, not Christ in my opinion. As for Spidey, the symbolism stuck with the theme of duality- everyone complained about him "unmasking" so much, but it wasn't until he reconciled being Parker and Spidey that he was comfortable unmasking, symbolic of accepting that duality.

Just my opinion... and sorry for mentioning Christ so much if it offended anyone or isn't part of your religious beliefs.

 

[chaseter]

Ummm...why the **** do you think he was struggling to carry that thing the entire time, and then when he finally let it go he passed out and nearly died afterwards? He was using all of his might to push that thing into space. He was struggling even after just recharging his powers to their fullest extent. All you gotta do is pay attention to the details. Unfortunately one cannot pay attention to the details in X3 because there are none. There is no rational explanation for why Logan heals like a God during the climax, there is no explanation for why day turns night in a matter of minutes. There is no explanation for why Angel practically disappears in the second half, and no explanation for why Magneto had to move a whole friggin' bridge just so he could get to Alcatraz. Is Juggernaut's inability to swim the only reason? HAHAHAHA! X3 has many more flaws than merely one scene that requires a little suspension of disbelief, just look at the reviews. Say what you want about critics, but those guys are trained to look for flaws...and obviously they found more in X3. More glaring, more obvious, and more ridiculous. X3 was not deep in the slighest, it tried to be, but it failed b/c its director had ADD and the writers wrote a shallow script. No room for development, to attention to detail, just a rush-job through the character scenes in order to jump into the next action sequence. Say what you want about Superman, but the same cannot be said for Singer's film.

Did you not read what I was replying too??? Sure X3 had its flaws, I agree with that. Sure it could have been better, but so could Superman Returns. SR didn't do too great at the box office and X3 smashed it into the ground. X3 had too much action and not enough story and SR had all story and no action...Superman never punched anything. If Singer had stayed with the X-Men...we all would have been better off. But X3 was a good flick but could have been great.

Most of those things you mentioned have nothing to do with the plot. Would the Alcatraz scene been better if Magneto and his gang took a boat to Alcatraz???...No. Angel had also just arrived at the X Mansion. If everyone was hesitant to allow Iceman, Rogue, Kitty, etc... to actually fight in a battle due to lack of training and experience, do you really think they are going to allow someone who has been there for a few hours to join the team? It did turn to night quiet fast but doesn't take anything away from the film. It takes about 30 minutes to get dark when the sun goes below the horizon. The sun was below the horizon when Magneto started moving the bridge. Do you think Ratner was going to show 30 mins of film with Magneto moving a bridge??? Sure more critics loved SR than X3...but who do you think Fox is making the movie for??? Critics or everyone else...because the box office numbers show a lot of people loved it. But do not get me wrong...it was good but could have been great. I am just tired of all the rabid fans nitpicking at every little thing they can find...some sound so ridiculous in their constant rants.

 

[ntcrawler]

Angel had also just arrived at the X Mansion. If everyone was hesitant to allow Iceman, Rogue, Kitty, etc... to actually fight in a battle due to lack of training and experience, do you really think they are going to allow someone who has been there for a few hours to join the team?

Exactly. So how the heck did he manage to get there a few minutes after the X-men since it's clear he wasn't with them onboard the X-Jet? This was a cross-country flight. They had a supersonic Jet. He had... oh never mind, you get the idea

I am just tired of all the rabid fans nitpicking at every little thing they can find...some sound so ridiculous in their constant rants.

Does the above sound ridiculous to you? Or would you consider this a sloppy goof by the people who made the film?

 

[La_She-Beast]

I am just tired of all the rabid fans nitpicking at every little thing they can find...some sound so ridiculous in their constant rants.

LOL I'm not a fan of X-Men (I only have 12 comics of X-Men) and I didn't like the movie. I do admire the X-Men films though. That's why I came into the X-Men comics... but definetely I didn't like X3. It was sooo action-classic. Cheesy, unoriginal scenes. There's nothing unique coming from the director... not even the Wolverine character.

 

[tonytr1687]

Ironic that when I raise points about SR that I am 'grasping' or 'nitpicking' and lacking 'suspension of disbelief' and yet you then provide a similar list of points! Sanctimonious or what!

Each of your points has been explained and countered on here numerous times, i won't go over all of them again. But I will point out that Angel doesn't hate his wings, he is afraid - afraid of his father's reaction as much as anything... 10 years later, he is an adult who's been hiding his wings all that time and has come to accept them...it's all about wanting to fit in, to be accepted. Similarly Rogue wants true acceptance from Bobby rather than him trying to work around it (as he said in X2), it isn't just about sex, it's about closeness and completeness, about the removal of an obstacle to a 'normal relationship'. And Storm does use her powers to fight Callisto - her first move is to fling her into the house with a lightning bolt (with Callisto getting up straight away and showing she is physically resistant), her last move is to electrocute her with a lightning bombardment that was intensified by metal fencing.. between those times, Callisto kept Storm far too occupied to allow her to begin summoning elemental phenomena...

Superman should never be understated. This is a superhero movie, people want much more than introspective, leaden moments.... The dark, restrained costume (which I thought was okay) was an ominous sign of a dark and restrained movie that has been a box office disappointment.

Your first mistake was using box office to try and prove your point. And while you equipped yourself well in your responses concerning Storm and Rogue, you clearly arent understanding the problem with Angel's character. Where's the ****in character arc? If he's trying to cut his wings off then he clearly doesnt like them and wants them gone because, as you said, he's afraid. But instead of showing how he grew to love his wings and want them intact and therefore reject the cure, they just fast-forward to that scene with him in the lab about to be cured. And just like that, by some miracle, he doesnt want them gone anymore. Just what the hell changed his mind huh?

Superman had its share of big effects moments that were much more than introspective. It had both, whereas X3 didnt have anything that was remotely deep or thoughtful, except maybe in its attempts to mimic Singer's social commentary. But in that respect it failed miserably. The reason your comments are nitpicks is very simple. The flaws I'm pointing out in X3 are very major, unlike a mere kid's squeal in one scene that lasts a total of 2 seconds. Yes its a comic book movie, but comic-book movies should never have to resort to being shallow. They can be deep and introspective too. They SHOULD be. Especially when the material is there. Superman Returns joins X1, X2, Spider-man, Spider-man 2, and Batman Begins on the short list of comic-book films that managed both spectacle and substance.

 

[tonytr1687]

Did you not read what I was replying too??? Sure X3 had its flaws, I agree with that. Sure it could have been better, but so could Superman Returns. SR didn't do too great at the box office and X3 smashed it into the ground. X3 had too much action and not enough story and SR had all story and no action...Superman never punched anything. If Singer had stayed with the X-Men...we all would have been better off. But X3 was a good flick but could have been great.

Most of those things you mentioned have nothing to do with the plot. Would the Alcatraz scene been better if Magneto and his gang took a boat to Alcatraz???...No. Angel had also just arrived at the X Mansion. If everyone was hesitant to allow Iceman, Rogue, Kitty, etc... to actually fight in a battle due to lack of training and experience, do you really think they are going to allow someone who has been there for a few hours to join the team? It did turn to night quiet fast but doesn't take anything away from the film. It takes about 30 minutes to get dark when the sun goes below the horizon. The sun was below the horizon when Magneto started moving the bridge. Do you think Ratner was going to show 30 mins of film with Magneto moving a bridge??? Sure more critics loved SR than X3...but who do you think Fox is making the movie for??? Critics or everyone else...because the box office numbers show a lot of people loved it. But do not get me wrong...it was good but could have been great. I am just tired of all the rabid fans nitpicking at every little thing they can find...some sound so ridiculous in their constant rants.

Superman all story and no action? Guess you missed about an hour of the film. Last time I checked action doesnt = throwing punches. The box office numbers show a lot of ppl love X3? Right...thats why its legs have been so terrible. The movie was garunteed a big opening no matter how good of a film it was...everything post-opening is what counts. And obviously word of mouth got around...

 

[tonytr1687]

And then this part is never again touched. I thought that despite her memory blocks, after Superman II Lois would be suspicious again, since in Superman II she worked along similar lines of reasoning to discover his secret identity.



Even if she knew about it, she wouldn't forgive him for flying away without saying goodbye. The only part this would change was she wouldn't call BS on him when he tries to explain his reasons later.

He's been insane since Superman: The Movie. Don't you remember his insane plan? The Crime of the Century? To cause an artificial earthquake, then sink California in order to turn Arizona into beachfront property? Marina Del Lex ring a bell?



Exactly. We're not supposed to care about her, just like Lex didn't care about her! She was just a plot device to acquire the resources that Lex needed to implement his latest and greatest scheme. Give a damn just long enough for her to sign that document, and then viola!



He was as disgusted with Lex's appearance and behavior as the rest of us are supposed to be. How often to you encounter someone who takes his hair off and tosses it at you? Wouldn't you freak out a little too? Try it sometime!



I couldn't agree more. I knew after Jean got rid of Scott that she was pretty much doomed. Her death was in no way suspensful or a surprise. The only thing that surprised me was that 1) no one even remotely tried to save her or reach out to her and 2) They used the Cure on Magneto, but not on her.
You can debate this all you want, but the way it was set up in the film made it clear that she was one of the people on the checklist meant to die, and by God they were going to bury her no matter what. I cried at the end of X2 because it was so emotional and real. I only cried at the end of X3 because I felt sorry for what the writers did to these chars.



what surprised me was just how close to the bottom of the barrel they were scraping for resources to fight against Magneto's army. You would figure they'd at least have some other connections to rely on Than just 3 adults and 3 noobs.



Well you can only squeeze in so much into a proverbial 2-scene story arc




It also managed to mix a feeling of doom with light-heartedness, and done in bad taste. like cracking jokes at a funeral. the only time you really felt the impact of the subject matter and the intensity of the situation was in the trailers. You have 2 major characters dead. 3 if you count Jean and what came back as not being Jean. And how does it impact the mansion? Are the students distraught and upset? Yes, but for other reasons. Kitty doesn't miss Dr Grey or Mister Summers, she misses snow... And Rogue doesn't miss Mr Summers or Dr Grey either, she wants intimacy. She saved their lives in X2 when she flew that Jet, they made her feel a member of the family and have a place, and now she's going to run off again. Jeez, couldn't she at least wait until AFTER Alcatraz to take the cure? Just in case she might be needed by her teammates?

Concerning the first issue, I'm not so sure SR was supposed to include much of Superman II as its history. I remember Singer saying the first film and PARTS of the second were supposed to serve as a vague history.

 

[ntcrawler]

Concerning the first issue, I'm not so sure SR was supposed to include much of Superman II as its history. I remember Singer saying the first film and PARTS of the second were supposed to serve as a vague history.

You're allowed to do that with continuity? Wow, that's pretty neat. Leaves some ideas for future X-men films. Take this, take that, leave out this, and change a little of that. That's one way to fix a film!

 

[X-Maniac]

Your first mistake was using box office to try and prove your point. And while you equipped yourself well in your responses concerning Storm and Rogue, you clearly arent understanding the problem with Angel's character. Where's the ****in character arc? If he's trying to cut his wings off then he clearly doesnt like them and wants them gone because, as you said, he's afraid. But instead of showing how he grew to love his wings and want them intact and therefore reject the cure, they just fast-forward to that scene with him in the lab about to be cured. And just like that, by some miracle, he doesnt want them gone anymore. Just what the hell changed his mind huh?

As Angel says to his father 'it's what you want' - and now he's old enough, big enough, strong enough and adult enough to make his choice and stand up to him. It didn't look an attractive option to take that cure - restrained with straps, a giant syringe coming towards him, the rather sinister-looking Dr Rao and her comment about the transformation being jarring... it didn't add up to a very convincing reason for Angel to want the cure!

There was no way they could, or should, explore the previous ten years of his life in detail but in those short, key scenes we found out more about Angel's motivations and background than we ever have about Cyclops, Storm or Jean in the previous two movies where we were given no history on them at all.

I felt perfectly happy with what we did get on Angel - it was an introduction to the character with backstory and presented him as one of those at the centre of the cure storyline. I thought bringing in Angel, Beast and also Leech through the cure storyline was a brilliant idea. The cure story gave each of them an emotional connection to the viewer. I think X3 is deeper than you appreciate...it's just that its 'style' is different and non-Singer and evidently you prefer longer, quieter moments where people's thoughts and motives are implicit. As Bryan had intended Angel to merely be a captive at Stryker's dam in X2 - and even that got cut - I much prefer that we did get Angel this time and in a more fleshed-out way than simply being a captive with no backstory.

Superman had its share of big effects moments that were much more than introspective. It had both, whereas X3 didnt have anything that was remotely deep or thoughtful, except maybe in its attempts to mimic Singer's social commentary. But in that respect it failed miserably. The reason your comments are nitpicks is very simple. The flaws I'm pointing out in X3 are very major, unlike a mere kid's squeal in one scene that lasts a total of 2 seconds. Yes its a comic book movie, but comic-book movies should never have to resort to being shallow. They can be deep and introspective too. They SHOULD be. Especially when the material is there. Superman Returns joins X1, X2, Spider-man, Spider-man 2, and Batman Begins on the short list of comic-book films that managed both spectacle and substance.

Yes, Superman had big effect moments - largely Superman showing his power against inanimate things like rock, fire, falling debris... mostly devoid of emotion or interpersonal conflict. It's the parts between that are introspective. I felt a lack of interpersonal emotional expression was present throughout the film. I'd have much preferred flashbacks to Superman leaving earth and Lex Luthor being freed on appeal, and then later those issues coming to the front in heated exchanges between Lex and Superman, Lois and Superman... the irony of Superman's absence being at the heart of the story's events. But it was all so understated, and I felt it was very questionable in places. Another cringeworthy moment that springs to mind is Lois sashaying on to Lex's boat; having located the source of the EMP (but wasn't it at the house, not a boat?), she simply marches down there in an evening gown with her child to investigate and swishes oh-so-predictably into Lex's clutches.

I believe the flaws i'm pointing out are also very major. Lois being unaware of Krypton's remains being discovered, her having met and had sex with Richard quickly enough for him to believe he was Jason's father. Things like that stand out a mile. Not to mention the real estate that no one would ever want - New Krypton should have been something magical, alien, desirable. They could have got away with it, had they included some dialogue such as Kitty saying 'You call this real estate' to Lex and Lex replying 'Just wait until we use the other crystals...'. And the removal of that island from the sea would have had catastrophic consequences.... (Why did everything look so sombre and dark - even the fortress took on a muted look devoid of any 'magic'. The production designs were so gloomy!).

I guess if you liked all that, but disliked X3 intensely, we are never going to agree...

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

Angel was shown a much much more mature person when he was 10 yrs ago. Now able to choose his choice. To Take a Stand

 

[Obsidian]

Angel was shown a much much more mature person when he was 10 yrs ago. Now able to choose his choice. To Take a Stand

But he didn't make that choice until he was about to be strapped in. Right up until then, he was ready to make that choice and "clip his wings" permamently. But all of a sudden he changes his mind?!

 

[chaseter]

Exactly. So how the heck did he manage to get there a few minutes after the X-men since it's clear he wasn't with them onboard the X-Jet? This was a cross-country flight. They had a supersonic Jet. He had... oh never mind, you get the idea



Does the above sound ridiculous to you? Or would you consider this a sloppy goof by the people who made the film?

Ratner mentioned he could of stowed away. He was listening in on their conversation...how hard is it to hide on a large jet?

 

[Vile]

It's sad that we have to assume something like that, when a 2 and half second clip of him running up the ramp is all we would need.

As far as I'm concerned, he called the Spot and caught a lift with him.

Then again, the movie is filled with a hell of a lot worse...

 

[chaseter]

Superman all story and no action? Guess you missed about an hour of the film. Last time I checked action doesnt = throwing punches. The box office numbers show a lot of ppl love X3? Right...thats why its legs have been so terrible. The movie was garunteed a big opening no matter how good of a film it was...everything post-opening is what counts. And obviously word of mouth got around...

Word of mouth got around for what, and whose legs are you faultering??? Superman didn't break any records...and was easily trumped by Pirates 2 the next weekend. Superman's lack luster box office numbers show that. Action is not only using powers to save people but good fight scenes as well. How dumb would the X-Men comics be if all they did was use their powers to save people. It is like the old Batman series with no henchmen to fight. A trap is set and the hero saves the victim. I want...as well as America want a good fight with a villian, and a lot of critics are just giving it average reviews due to lack of action. Why do you think Singer said he wanted more action in the sequel???

Superman's box office is just over $175 million, over $60 million under X3. It will not catch X3...ever.

 

[chaseter]

It's sad that we have to assume something like that, when a 2 and half second clip of him running up the ramp is all we would need.

As far as I'm concerned, he called the Spot and caught a lift with him.

Then again, the movie is filled with a hell of a lot worse...

The point is...there was no need to film it because it really doesn't matter. I am sure if Ratner had been on from day 1...we would have gotten a better film. He did great with what he had time wise.

 

[danoyse]

This is sci-fi, after all.

But since you are on a constant 'I hate X3' nitpick setting, let's look at some other stuff in the first two movies.

Please get back to me on the effects of injecting a large syringe of iron into a human bloodstream (as seen in X2) - I really wonder if the prison guard would suffer no ill-effects from this! Please also get back to me on how Magneto was right underneath the plummeting X-jet and how, from a considerable distance, he was able to see and repair the metal of its ripped tail section. While you are at it, can you also tell me why a cat's tongue wasn't sliced to shreds when it licked Wolverine's claws, where the mobile phone went that Gyrich put in his pocket before transforming to Mystique in X1, why Mystique's claw scars changed direction between the wound in X1 and the tent scene with Logan in X2, how Wolverine was unable to detect Mystique in that tent when his sense of smell could discern it wasn't the real Storm at the end of X1, and how Nightcrawler knew exactly where to teleport when he vanished from the X-jet to save Rogue....

And let's not even begin to apply the laws of physics to the effect of suddenly removing a large island (and its root in the ocean floor) in SR. Surely, it should have been 'goodbye Metropolis' from the resulting tsunami....

As I said, this is sci-fi.

I think you are watching the wrong kind of movies for your mentality/personality. Choose something without any 'suspension of disbelief' required and you will be a lot happier.

That's something I've noticed as well...the first 2 X-Men movies had major nitpicks that were no better or worse than the nitpicks in X3, but somehow those nitpicks are completely inexcusable this time.

I mean seriously, how is every world leader present on Ellis Island, with massive security, and no one sees a boat carrying a lethal machine chugging it's way to the statue? Even if the jet was undercover, wouldn't someone have noticed the disturbance in the water? Wouldn't anyone have noticed the dead cops were missing? Didn't anyone see the X-Jet leaving the scene?

How long was Mystique posing as Senator Kelly? She was still acting as him in X2. Didn't this guy have a family or friends who thought anything was suspicious?

How was the mansion allowed to stay open an keep a jet under the basketball court after the events of X2? Because Xavier stopped time during a live TV broadcast and told the president that one of his students had broken into a government building to take documents blaming one of his staff? Is the world really at ease knowing the most powerful psychic in the world has the ability to wipe out the entire human race...and nearly did? What about the soldiers Wolverine killed...wouldn't there be reprecussions of that?

And why were Bobby's parents so shocked to find someone in the kitchen? Didn't they see the car in the driveway?

People mention the Golden Gate Bridge inaccuracies in X3. Do you really think that's a first in a comic book movie? One of the best scenes in "Spiderman 2" was when Spidey fought Doc Ock on the L-train in NYC. I've worked in NY for 10 years. There's no L-train in Manhattan. In fact, in one shot, it was clearly Chicago they were riding past.

How about the Metropolis in the original "Superman" movies...it was NY! Supes was clearly flying around the Twin Towers and the Statue of Liberty. I even saw the Port Authority in the background in one scene. Why does Metropolis have so many NY landmarks?

It's fine not to like the movie. I had my gripes with it, but overall I enjoyed it. I liked "Superman Retuns" as well. I actually thought I would have a lesser opinion of X3 after I saw SR, but in the end I did enjoy both movies for their own merits.

But it does seem like the inaccuracies in the first 2 X-Men movies get some sort of free pass because some of the fans liked those movies more.

 

[chaseter]

That's something I've noticed as well...the first 2 X-Men movies had major nitpicks that were no better or worse than the nitpicks in X3, but somehow those nitpicks are completely inexcusable this time.

I mean seriously, how is every world leader present on Ellis Island, with massive security, and no one sees a boat carrying a lethal machine chugging it's way to the statue? Even if the jet was undercover, wouldn't someone have noticed the disturbance in the water? Wouldn't anyone have noticed the dead cops were missing? Didn't anyone see the X-Jet leaving the scene?

How long was Mystique posing as Senator Kelly? She was still acting as him in X2. Didn't this guy have a family or friends who thought anything was suspicious?

How was the mansion allowed to stay open an keep a jet under the basketball court after the events of X2? Because Xavier stopped time during a live TV broadcast and told the president that one of his students had broken into a government building to take documents blaming one of his staff? Is the world really at ease knowing the most powerful psychic in the world has the ability to wipe out the entire human race...and nearly did? What about the soldiers Wolverine killed...wouldn't there be reprecussions of that?

And why were Bobby's parents so shocked to find someone in the kitchen? Didn't they see the car in the driveway?

People mention the Golden Gate Bridge inaccuracies in X3. Do you really think that's a first in a comic book movie? One of the best scenes in "Spiderman 2" was when Spidey fought Doc Ock on the L-train in NYC. I've worked in NY for 10 years. There's no L-train in Manhattan. In fact, in one shot, it was clearly Chicago they were riding past.

How about the Metropolis in the original "Superman" movies...it was NY! Supes was clearly flying around the Twin Towers and the Statue of Liberty. I even saw the Port Authority in the background in one scene. Why does Metropolis have so many NY landmarks?

It's fine not to like the movie. I had my gripes with it, but overall I enjoyed it. I liked "Superman Retuns" as well. I actually thought I would have a lesser opinion of X3 after I saw SR, but in the end I did enjoy both movies for their own merits.

But it does seem like the inaccuracies in the first 2 X-Men movies get some sort of free pass because some of the fans liked those movies more.

Lets not forget in X2 when Nightcrawler was already in the pit with the kidnapped X kids before he even bamfed??? You can see him in the freaking pit with his eyes closed! But do you know what??? I got over these little things and enjoyed the film...

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Magneto: Point those black eyes somewhere else. Now make the monkey infront of you look like its wearing nothing but a pink skirt. Can you handle that?

Jean: How long do I have to stare at it?

Magneto: As long as you have to. Toodles.

heh

 

[ntcrawler]

How was the mansion allowed to stay open an keep a jet under the basketball court after the events of X2? Because Xavier stopped time during a live TV broadcast and told the president that one of his students had broken into a government building to take documents blaming one of his staff? Is the world really at ease knowing the most powerful psychic in the world has the ability to wipe out the entire human race...and nearly did? What about the soldiers Wolverine killed...wouldn't there be reprecussions of that?

Yes, exactly! And these are serious nitpicks - to be addressed in X3! X3 failed to take into account a massive event dubbed by fans as the "great blackout", whene for about a minute first every mutant in the world, and then every human suddenly came down to the ground, clutching his or her heads in agony. If they were driving a car, or flying a plane, or doing anything dangerous that required concentration, they'd all be dead. Speculation puts the death toll worldwide in the millions. 8 Months have passed at the beginning of X3, and it's not even mentioned? And it's a post 9/11 world? I guess these things really are commonplace after all. But you can't blame this on X2 because the ending of the movie was so soon after the actual event that there wasn't even time for any of to settle in yet, or the repercussions. These issues should have been addressed by X3, and they weren't.