I don't understand why they limited Wally's role even more in S2 considering "Bloodlines" made it painfully obvious how redundant and useless Wally was as a speedster in the grand scheme of things with Bart's arrival.
Since when does Bart being faster than Wally make him useless?
And I really think they misplayed Wally's death going back to the first season. As has been mentioned before, they supposedly dealt a bit with Wally's issues of inferiority to Barry in the tie-in comic, but it seems like a pretty big thing to completely leave out of the show considering the only reason he died was simply because he wasn't fast enough to live. But outside of Dick's quick jab about how Wally got bloody noses when he tried to vibrate through objects ("Welcome to Happy Harbor"), I can't recall anything else saying that Wally was slower than Barry, or was bothered by that fact in the first season. If someone doesn't read the tie-in comic, it really feels like they missed out on a crucial part of his story. Of course, they tried to fit it in "Bloodlines", but I don't think it worked for a few reasons - most notably being that there was a five year gap between seasons, and not only does it come out of left field, but it comes across as just an excuse to kill the character off instead a big part of his story since it was pretty much ignored in S1.
Your assuming that Wally's insecurity w/ Barry is a bigger deal than it was actually made out to be. You think it would be as big a deal as the years went by later on? Also how did all those things you noted in Bloodlines come out of nowhere?
Not to mention Wally's insecurities were suppose to be vital to the character (at least in S1) and one of the big reasons why they paired him with Artemis, but honestly, Wally always struck me as the member of the team who was most comfortable with who they were and their role on the team given what they showed on the show itself.
Just because he might've been comfortable in that role, means he wasn't insecure how? There were plenty of ways they showed he was insecure in season 1:
-In Infiltrator if Roy not being on the team was such a big deal to him, don't you think we would've heard about that more between this episode AND Insecurity? He made a big deal about Artemis replacing Roy for one reason, as a shallow attempt to get her to not focus on the fact that he tripped and humiliated himself right infront of her as a first impression.
-Similarly in Denial, the reason he got on a soapbox about how magic is a lie was because he humiliated himself BY almost costing the team their lives. If they're focusing on his claims, THEY'RE NOT focusing on his blunder almost killing them.
-Same thing with Disordered and Secrets, he went about hitting on Canary and M'gann as a pitiful attempt to make people think, the failsafe simulation didn't bother him.
Now if you THINK he's wasn't an insecure person after all THAT I don't know what else to tell you.
but very little came from it in regards to Wally's development besides the show telling us he's a stubborn idiot that needed Artemis to be his keeper.
Yeah because a 15 yr old adolescent is an accurate portrayal of someone's intelligence. Him denying magic doesn't make him an idiot, just stubborn. I also don't think it showed that Artemis was going to be “his keeper”. By that same token, Wally calling her out in Insecurity makes Wally her keeper. But I don't think EITHER of those claims are true.
It was the first episode of the show which seemed to try to cement the fact that Wally was a science buff, and it chose to do that by making him deny obvious magic to the point of absurdity, until it reaches the "no, duh, he has to accept it at least to himself" conclusion.
See now, if the magic Wally were criticizing was so OBVIOUS, than don't you think anyone would be able to prove it's existance easily, and that it's not just an advanced form of science? Nobody is able to give any effective counterpoints to Wally's claims. Kaldur's claim came down to “school says so”, and everyone else just blindly accepts it, without thinking about it on a deeper level. Not exactly effective counterpoints to Wally's theory that “Anything can be explained by science.” is it? The only thing that got him to be more open minded was Kent Nelson dying infront of him, then him seeing his “soul” in the helmet, AND Wally using powers he's never had (while the helmet was on him). Science isn't exactly going to be able to explain a dead man's SOUL still being in the helmet so easily, is it?
It also was one of those episodes which TOLD, rather than SHOWED, that Wally's destiny was to date Artemis. Later episodes handled it better, but this one didn't.
Sure they showed it. Just because you're not a fan of the beligerent sexual tension trope, doesn't mean they didn't. As Greg pointed out, there has to be a reason for WHY Artemis keeps on Wally's case till the end, why would she bother otherwise? They SHOWED that.
So epic they need their own posts! And to anyone who might ask, I would rather endlessly debate a good show that was canceled than, say, put myself through "AVENGERS ASSEMBLE".
Here, here!
Roanoke Island has a real historical mystery and mystique to it to add a detail to an episode. What does the North Pole have - Santa Claus? Hyperborea? It's apples and oranges. But, I suppose anything is possible in terms of theoretical possibilities of plots of a cancelled show.
Well for starters, Superman's fortress of solitude is up there. Its also a possibility that Superman MIGHT have access to the phantom zone.
By "cease", my interpretation of Scarab's meaning was, "cease to exist".
What was stopping the scarab from adding those last 2 words? One of the definitions of cease, among MANY is disappear, vanish, etc. If your the producers, and want to make Wally's death obvious and NOT IN ANY WAY AMBIGIOUS, why choose a word that can be interpreted in different ways, or a way that can be thought of as ambigious?
Because that's what was happening. The energy from the bomb was causing Wally to break down at the atomic level. He's hardly the first subject in animation to seemingly "fade away" as a death scene.
He's also not the
first person to
vanish in a blinding flash of light, with everyone thinking he's dead ONLY to be proven otherwise later.
If he's breaking down at the atomic level, then what sense does it make for him to start glowing just before he disappears? That's just adding more energy, just AFTER taking it away. That makes NO SENSE to me. If his atomic structure is so weak WHY does it need a burst of energy to finish the job? Why doesn't he just disappear?
If he's breaking down at the atomic level a scene like
THIS from 1:46 to 1:53 would fit that description better. There, his atomic structure is seemingly breaking down AND there's no flash of light (no pun intended) when he vanishes.
What would happen with Bart would have depended on how long that time skip between seasons 2 and 3 would have been. Weisman said there'd have been one, but not how long it was. Wally was willing to still run around and be called "Kid" by Barry even as he was 21-22 years old, and Bart is younger than he was in Season 1. I would hope that Bart's tenure as Flash wasn't going to be foregone conclusion, but who knows. I certainly wasn't jiving for more Bart.
I'm pretty confident that the skip would be between 3-7 years. Long enough for a change between what they were in season 2, to contrast with season 3. Just like with the first-second season transition.
The thing with Bart is that his age in the comics BARELY leaves the teen years, and there's not much there afterwards to draw from, at least given that there Greg said he had plans for 7 seasons IF they'd let him. So what's the rush in bringing in Bart this early, OR doing a “death” like Wally's where Greg claims the reason they chose Wally is, “I can’t think of a character who would hurt more for you to lose than Wally.” How many deaths AFTERWARDS would top his?
I do think more consistent appearances this season would have only enhanced that effect. But, I think we agree on that at least. The point I was trying to make was that through continued use, Superboy always felt like a presence on the show and a member of the team. So did Megan, Nightwing, and yes even Artemis. Wally, though, could be seen as the demoted cast member who got the noble sacrifice.
Yes but what did that “presence” amount to in season 2?
Probably my biggest reason for, well, accepting the show's finale at face value is that Weisman and Vietti set a tone of major things coming with a price. The price of thwarting the Reach invasion and disorganizing the Light was Kid-Flash. That was what was lost and has to be mourned as everyone goes forward. Negating that with a "Hey, I'm back from the 31st century New Genesis, how's tricks?" resurrection would take the punch out of those final scenes that even months later have everyone still riveted.
I'm guessing were not counting Lex Luthor being well on his way to becoming UN Secretary General, or Mount Justice being destroyed as things that come with a price? Costing Wally years of his life on earth is still a price, and theoretically they can get away with saying it WASN'T a death scene, on the technicality of because they showed you what happened. So all that would be left is everyone mourning Wally's “death”, yet I don't remember people complaining about people mourning over Artemis's death when it wasn't real, and how it's a waste because it “cheapens” it when Artemis's death IS REAL. Even a “temporary “death”” of Wally would have more impact than Barry's permanent death. Also your assuming Wally coming back would workout so easily and wouldn't have it's own pitfalls.
I guess now is good time to go into the theory I believe holds the most weight on Wally being alive. The zeta beam one:
Wally leaves the watchtower to go help*
through the Zeta-Tubes. *The zeta radiation had probably
not worn off YET when Wally got to the North Pole.**So whatever the
alien energy that disrupts earth’s magnetic fields that fired at Wally PROBABLY*
mixed with the zeta beam radiation that wally was fresh out of the tubes from.**Since this thing messes with Earth’s magnetic field my first guess is that Wally was teleported to*another dimension.
Now before someone brings up how the
zeta tubes teleportation beams are
a yellow/gold color, you’re right. *But we’ve also been shown something else that runs on
zeta radiation (along with chronotron radiation),
the time machine Bart went back to the past in. *
It’s color is blue when it’s radiation is used.
At the end of Bloodlines when Bart’s time machine leaves the year 2056 to go back in time to 2016,
it’s charges up THEN*disappears in a bursting flash of light. *Similar to THE SAME WAY Wally
disappeared.
Also in the comics the first form of zeta beams would have it’s radiation ware off within a week, after that the person covered in it would transport back to the place they were teleported from. *Later versions are pretty much what we see on this show. *My point, given Greg and Brandon’s desire to stay true to the comics (to a certain degree), the zeta beam radiation ALSO probably takes time to ware off, though no one will probably get teleported back.
Also it’s a pretty safe bet THAT in order for the zeta beams or time machines to work, the user has to de-materialize/have their atomic structure broken down temporarily to become the energy that gets transported.
Here are the elements we do know are in play here:
-We’ve got a zeta radiation covered Wally running probably near the speed of sound.
-We’ve got the kinetic energy generated by the 3 speedsters.
-We’ve got the speed trails formed by the 3 of them.
-We’ve also got the chrysalis energy which messes up the earth’s magnetic field, and it’s firing beams at Wally.
-There’s also the potential possibility of the earth’s magnetic field not fully recovered at that point could allow someone to slip through a dimension.
Now I don’t have a degree in nuclear physics. BUT I would be fully confident in buying that the three things bolded above COULD make some form of radiation and COMBINE itself with the zeta radiation Wally is covered in.
IMO Wally is alive and I believe it is thanks to the fact THAT he traveled through zeta tubes from the watchtower to earth.
If zeta beam radiation can be combined with chrontron radiation to go back in time. I DON’T think it’s a bridge too far to buy into the idea that Wally was teleported due to still being covered in zeta radiation combined with the magnetic field disruptors energy TURNING into radiation with the heat the speedsters were generating.
Because Tim at one point called himself Red Robin and was far more deductive than Nightwing was, and more even tempered than Jason Todd was. He had something to define him as unique and special. Also, to be blunt, powerless human masked vigilantes are a dime a dozen in comics and some overlapping is acceptable.
Those things in bold were shown from Tim on Earth-16 WHEN?
Yet when I dismiss Kid-Flash's volcano exposition in "HUMANITY" because Robin could have just Google'd it if the plot required, I'm a heathen.
There's a world of difference between googling something AND knowing the signs of something RIGHT OFF THE BAT, because of someone's knowledge. Sure Dick COULD look something up in that scene, but that guarantees that he would know that the volcano's eruption was a world wide problem and not just a routine eruption how? Googleing that stuff isn't going to teach you knowledge on how to spot something on the fly WITHOUT A COMPUTER. Using Wally in that scene, not only takes LESS TIME, but does it BEFORE the planet's population is killed off. The way you make it sound, is like the internet can be used to solve any problem. That's only true to a certain extent, but where do you look up stuff on how to make a device on disabling Electronic machines LIKE the Red's in Homefront? Of course the counter point would be making Dick smarter, but that would be entering in to Wally's skill set. All of the original six had certain elements ALL OF THEM brought to the table, that made them unique. Wally's so called, “science exposition” was one of them.
"ENDGAME" established that Bart and Artemis were starting to bond over their mutual loss of Wally. I presume she'd have remained involved in his life at some point as an adopted aunt or friend or something. There also is no guarantee that Sportsmaster couldn't have been rehired or even manipulated by Savage in a third season. There also was a lot invested into Artemis to abandon, especially as she is very close to being a unique character to the universe - a merger of Artemis Crock and Arrowette with her own angles like being related to Cheshire and all that.
As I've stated before I don't think Artemis is done “distancing herself” from Wally. I think seeing the kid flash costume on someone else is going to make things difficult for her to the point where she takes a leave of absence from the team. I also think my Huntress theory still holds some weight as well.
Sure Crusher could end up back with The Light but why would he when he feels the light turned on him? Also why would savage go through the trouble of manipulating someone when he could easily get someone else to fill his void the same way Savage did with Deathstroke?
Greg has stated that Cissie King Jones as Arrowette is something he would've gotten to eventually, and that her mother Bonnie, was the original Arrowette as a wanna be sidekick to Ollie before Roy came along. Yes Artemis is a unique character for the series, BUT Aqualad was an original character created for the show, and many have argued that he got shortchanged in development during season 1. Yes Chesire could get Artemis involved, but given that next season is going to seemingly be involved MORE on the galactic stuff how would she fit in to the plot?
Frankly, no. Artemis tore into herself in "THE FIX" for agreeing to Nightwing's proposal so fast that she didn't consider the consequences or appreciate what she had with Wally. Which, post "ENDGAME", proved more tragic because she literally missed out on the last months of his life. Wally wasn't happy with it from the start, but accepted it was what Artemis wanted.
That doesn't prove Artemis WASN'T cautious about it BEFORE the mission, it just proves she underestimated the mission and how IT DID go south. And I seriously DON'T see that reasoning flying well with Wally when others are still qualified, NOR do I think Artemis would NOT consider THAT.
Infiltrating a prison for one episode was different from Tigress' op. And in terms of "ties", Artemis had experience with the sorts of things which were expected of her from her family life. It aided in her performance.
Your usage of the term “ties” is extremely vague. You also assume that Black Manta's organization operates the same way as her father does.
Also none of your points PROVE that Conner, M'gann, and/or Barbara were not qualified. The only thing different about the Belle Reve cover is that it didn't last AS long. If Conner and M'gann could successfully stop a prison breakout with LITTLE experience, why is it so hard to imagine that they could handle something bigger like THIS with 5 more years of experience under their belt?
At least with Artemis's “death”, you can say Sportsmaster's reaction to The Light would be something no one else could bring to the table WITHOUT HER.
Wally could have been in the area to check on Impulse, who was being checked up at STAR LABS.
Wally knows that Impulse and the kids would be taken to THAT Star Labs facility, HOW? Remember he's NOT in the loop and he's NOT getting a briefing from Dick. Sure Wally could've been calling daily to find things out, BUT that doesn't mean Dick is going to tell him ANYTHING.
Having nearly sacrificed some kids for real for the sake of "the plan", Wally could have wanted to meet with Nightwing again to further discuss his concerns.
He could but aside from Dick's apartment where would he go to discuss with him AWAY from other heroes?
Frankly, Despero was there because he fit the theme of the season with alien invaders. And, of course, his status as JLA villain. In practice, he was a mindless, monotone brute.
Doesn't mean they wouldn't have plans for him again down the line.
Considering Red Volcano was reassembled by Lex Luthor for the purpose of providing a diversionary battle to get the "runaways" to his side as well as expose how "in the Reach" Jaime was, I have difficulty buying him as a large threat.
Even assuming those things about RV being less powerful are true (I don't), Dick knew about all of those things in advance, HOW?
I'm amazed he was able to reassemble him considering Red Volcano dissolved in molten lava.
With a name like Red Volcano would you count out the possibility of him surviving that?
