Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

[heatvision38]

Not true, bald man. He screams and then Lois comes and hugs him and what not. Eh, if it didn't work for you that's fine tho, but that Superman felt real to me for a moment, surely more real than Reeves ever did to me. lol

Zod bless this type of fandom for keeping this same debate alive. That takes commitment.

That scream gave me chills. Not as powerful as Reeve's scream after Lois' death in Superman the Movie, but powerful nonetheless. You can just see how much pain he is in, how painfully conflicted he is.

[YT]lpod4qQzO7Q[/YT]
1:07 mark.

Seems pretty powerful to me.

 

[heatvision38]

I don't have a problem with Superman killing... I just wish it was set up better. Or at all. It just comes off borderline comedic from how out of left field it is. It's also silly to see him all worked up over those 4 people when he definitely killed at least about 50 people just from creating falling debris like 2 minutes prior

Because this was the only moment where he could actually do something about it. The family was right there in front of him, he could see them begging for their lives, so it was more personal. It's easier to not get weighed down by deaths (as they are happening) when they are more abstract. This family was not abstract.

 

[The Guard]

He screamed for a second and then we immediately cut to him joking around with a general. It never comes up again after that. That's treating this as a small thing, there's no "cost" beyond being sad for a brief moment.

He actually screams for more like four seconds.

We do not immediately cut to him joking around with a general. It's at least 30 seconds later, because there's a sequence of Lois holding him.

And he's not joking around, he's a having a fairly serious conversation with the General. He pretty much never jokes around with the General in the ensuing sequence. I'm not sure what you're talking about with that.

As I already told you, I'm not talking about the future cost to Superman, but the act itself in the moment.

Superman very clearly experiences immense emotional pain because of what he has done. Whether the cost was temporary pain or not, there was still a cost.

 

[The Guard]

I don't have a problem with Superman killing... I just wish it was set up better. Or at all.

If only there was a series of sequences built into the film that could have set up and developed the fact that Zod has nothing to lose and wants Superman to suffer as he takes all the humans from Superman one by one, and maybe even as the sequences wear on he says something along the lines of "There's only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die...or I do" that would clearly convey where this was heading. If only there was something that set up the need for Superman to kill Zod that might have contexualized it.

If only.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If only there was a series of sequences previously, that set up and developed the fact that Zod has nothing to lose and wants Superman to suffer as he takes all the humans from Superman one by one, and maybe even as the sequences wear on he says something along the lines of "There's only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die...or I do". If only there was something that set up the need for Superman to kill Zod that might have contexualized it.

If only.

I always hated that line, LOL! I mean, I know what he is saying but...Zod says this will end one way, and proceeds to offer 2 ways it can end. He should have instead said "There's only one way this ends, with one of us dead!" Saying the same thing, but sounds less contradictory.

 

[The Guard]

I always hated that line, LOL! I mean, I know what he is saying but...Zod says this will end one way, and proceeds to offer 2 ways it can end. He should have instead said "There's only one way this ends, with one of us dead!" Saying the same thing, but sounds less contradictory.

Oh, was that sequence in the film?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Oh, was that sequence in the film?

Your reply confuses me? What sequence? I am talking about a line of dialogue. Your reply makes absolutely no sense.

 

[chintai80]

I always hated that line, LOL! I mean, I know what he is saying but...Zod says this will end one way, and proceeds to offer 2 ways it can end. He should have instead said "There's only one way this ends, with one of us dead!" Saying the same thing, but sounds less contradictory.

lol!
math wasn't really one of zod's strongest suits.

 

[misslane38]

The reason I say it would have fit that scene is because in the desert sequence, one of the things he's accused of his burning up the bodies in the village and everything like that. So having that conversation would have felt natural. So Superman saying he does not kill fit there. But this is not the only such example I would point out where there was a miscommunication. The biggest is the Martha scene. I get what the scene is conveying and what it was supposed to mean, but people at large have adopted it as a meme. Again, this is an example of the message and goal not being fully achieved with the audience at large. There are several examples where Zack meant A, but audience saw B. This is why I think this is an area of improvement for him overall.

A conversation about what? He talks about the fact that he didn't kill those men, and he didn't. I'm not sure why it would be a good time to talk about his killing code. The point of the scene seems to be very much what you're talking about: Person X means to do or say A but Audience Y interprets A as B. It's cognitive dissonance. People see what they want to see. And, when it comes to the Martha scene, I think people understand its meaning just fine. It's been turned into a meme because people don't want to take it seriously. They want to make it a joke. The audience sees A and gets A, but it is easier and more popular to get fired up about B. So B becomes the debate -- becomes the meme.

 

[Jekecy]

Person X means to do or say A but Audience Y interprets A as B. It's cognitive dissonance. People see what they want to see. And, when it comes to the Martha scene, I think people understand its meaning just fine. It's been turned into a meme because people don't want to take it seriously. They want to make it a joke. The audience sees A and gets A, but it is easier and more popular to get fired up about B. So B becomes the debate -- becomes the meme.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the audience. I myself am perfectly fine with the Martha scene as is, but I've talked and debated with enough people (online and offline) to acknowledge there is just something about that scene which has rubbed people the wrong way and has become indefensible to that crowd.

I saw the memes coming as early as my very own midnight showing, via overheard convos of audience members around me walking out. Before there was any time for the internet to make it go viral, it was already making the rounds through the public. An opening as high as what BvS made doesn't get to that point with people going into it looking for material to ridicule. The film unfortunately just became that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

A conversation about what? He talks about the fact that he didn't kill those men, and he didn't. I'm not sure why it would be a good time to talk about his killing code. The point of the scene seems to be very much what you're talking about: Person X means to do or say A but Audience Y interprets A as B. It's cognitive dissonance. People see what they want to see. And, when it comes to the Martha scene, I think people understand its meaning just fine. It's been turned into a meme because people don't want to take it seriously. They want to make it a joke. The audience sees A and gets A, but it is easier and more popular to get fired up about B. So B becomes the debate -- becomes the meme.

Quite honestly, I don't think the audience overall got the Martha scene. I know plenty of people less into films than me who simply thought he stopped himself because their mothers had the same name, not examining the deeper meaning. This is not something I isolated out in my circle of friends either (I hate using your own cliques to form a world view), I have observed that as a trend overall. I personally thought the intent was clear, but how that scene is perceived I definitely not just see as being people like laughing about it. I think it runs deeper.

Conversely, before anyone gets mad, I am not saying you "didn't get the movie." I am saying the film had a disconnect with the audience, and part of that is the presentation. Like I said before, people can love the movies as they are. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm just kind of calling it as I am seeing it with the relationship between Snyder and the audience. The misinterpretation of what Martha was saying to Clark is kind of what got me onto this line of thought.

 

[chintai80]

Quite honestly, I don't think the audience overall got the Martha scene. I know plenty of people less into films than me who simply thought he stopped himself because their mothers had the same name, not examining the deeper meaning. This is not something I isolated out in my circle of friends either (I hate using your own cliques to form a world view), I have observed that as a trend overall. I personally thought the intent was clear, but how that scene is perceived I definitely not just see as being people like laughing about it. I think it runs deeper.

Conversely, before anyone gets mad, I am not saying you "didn't get the movie." I am saying the film had a disconnect with the audience, and part of that is the presentation. Like I said before, people can love the movies as they are. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm just kind of calling it as I am seeing it with the relationship between Snyder and the audience. The misinterpretation of what Martha was saying to Clark is kind of what got me onto this line of thought.

yea i was talking to one of my friends who is not a big a comic book fan as i am, and he understood what the martha scene trying to convey, but he thought it was done clumsily.

he thought bvs was a decent movie - but with some occasional clumsy/contrived writing in it.

 

[Kevin_28]

Same story here. Most of my friends actually liked BvS for the most part, but they just hated the Martha scene. "Oh our mothers have the same name? We're buddies now."

 

[chintai80]

yea. i think lot of us genre fans are more love it or hate it with these movies.
we're nitpicky aholes haha.

the general audience seems to be more forgiving.

 

[Kevin_28]

I also think that in a lot of the reviews/feedback, the martha scene was a consistent point of criticism.

 

[Spider-Fan]

yea i was talking to one of my friends who is not a big a comic book fan as i am, and he understood what the martha scene trying to convey, but he thought it was done clumsily.

he thought bvs was a decent movie - but with some occasional clumsy/contrived writing in it.

The most common complaints from people I talked to at work, home, etc (aka not no here) for hating BvS were "Martha!!!!" and they didn't get exactly what happened in the desert/why Superman was making a big deal about Batman now. Many of these people never saw the UC, so I can definitely see that. Without knowing all those details, it makes Superman's grudge against Batman/the Bat branding less clear (also I felt it gave Superman too little presence in the theatrical cut).

I heard plenty of other things people didn't like, but these 2 things were most common.

 

[Superchan]

The reason I say it would have fit that scene is because in the desert sequence, one of the things he's accused of his burning up the bodies in the village and everything like that. So having that conversation would have felt natural. So Superman saying he does not kill fit there. But this is not the only such example I would point out where there was a miscommunication.

To be honest when Clark told lois that "I didn't kill these people" it was very hard for anyone to take him seriously when we just saw him body slam a human being through 2 concrete walls at superspeed! Didn't make much sense but Snyder felt that it looked cool so....

The biggest is the Martha scene. I get what the scene is conveying and what it was supposed to mean, but people at large have adopted it as a meme. Again, this is an example of the message and goal not being fully achieved with the audience at large. There are several examples where Zack meant A, but audience saw B. This is why I think this is an area of improvement for him overall.

The martha scene had the right intention but sadly failed miserably for most people due to it's poor execution by Snyder and his editor.
If they juxtaposed the scenes of the waynes dying with those of Clark lying in lois's lap with the edited images of Joe Chill and psycho batman standing over them, the audience might've understood that Batman saw himself as the killer that he was made out to be instead the whole thing came off as "your mom is also called MARTHA!!!...high five supes!".
A half decent filmmaker could've made it work but alas...

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

The martha scene had the right intention but sadly failed miserably for most people due to it's poor execution by Snyder and his editor.
If they juxtaposed the scenes of the waynes dying with those of Clark lying in lois's lap with the edited images of Joe Chill and psycho batman standing over them, the audience might've understood that Batman saw himself as the killer that he was made out to be instead the whole thing came off as "your mom is also called MARTHA!!!...high five supes!".
A half decent filmmaker could've made it work but alas...

I agree 100% but people will shame you for wanting everything "Spoonfed"

 

[Superchan]

I agree 100% but people will shame you for wanting everything "Spoonfed"

*shrugs* ah well what can ya do.

 

[Polux]

lol!
math wasn't really one of zod's strongest suits.

He's designed to be a soldier, not a scientist!!!





People still fighting over this...Jesus....

 

[Aurakles]

I don't think it's fair to say Snyders a bad director because some of his messages and intentions aren't immediately obvious, he just has a different style from most other superhero films.

Generally superhero films have been aimed primarily at children, and have had a more straightforward style, they try to be easier to understand than some other areas of film.

Because of this, Snyders films contrast with the expectations we have for superhero films, audiences have been taught that Superhero films won't require more in depth thought.

An extreme example perhaps, but something by David Lynch can take multiple viewings and a lot of contemplation to understand, (some stuff from Twin Peaks still has me scratching my head). Lynch has a very different style from most superhero films, but that doesn't make him a bad director, nor should it mean he couldn't direct a superhero film.

Superhero films are becoming more diverse now (in terms of both style and not being exclusive to white men), so hopefully audiences will have a less assumptions about what to expect from a superhero film.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I always hated that line, LOL! I mean, I know what he is saying but...Zod says this will end one way, and proceeds to offer 2 ways it can end. He should have instead said "There's only one way this ends, with one of us dead!" Saying the same thing, but sounds less contradictory.

I don't get the issue with that line, he is basically saying either you kill me or I will kill you, that's two possibilities, but only one outcome. He is telling Superman the only way you will stop me is to kill me. If you don't, I will kill you.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't get the issue with that line, he is basically saying either you kill me or I will kill you, that's two possibilities, but only one outcome. He is telling Superman the only way you will stop me is to kill me. If you don't, I will kill you.

It's not what he is saying at its core, its the phrasing. It sounds weird to say this will end one way and present 2 possible endings. Just to the ear it sounds stupid, this is why I think the line needed tweaking. As it stands, he sounds like a more serious version of the Spanish Inquisition guys in Monty Python when they keep adding things to their list.

 

[Aurakles]

I'm a big fan of MOS but it has a few bits of dialogue that bother me, such as Faoras bit about evolution and the first kiss joke.

Although I'd happily take them over some of the dialogue in Justice League.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't think it's fair to say Snyders a bad director because some of his messages and intentions aren't immediately obvious, he just has a different style from most other superhero films.

Generally superhero films have been aimed primarily at children, and have had a more straightforward style, they try to be easier to understand than some other areas of film.

Because of this, Snyders films contrast with the expectations we have for superhero films, audiences have been taught that Superhero films won't require more in depth thought.

An extreme example perhaps, but something by David Lynch can take multiple viewings and a lot of contemplation to understand, (some stuff from Twin Peaks still has me scratching my head). Lynch has a very different style from most superhero films, but that doesn't make him a bad director, nor should it mean he couldn't direct a superhero film.

Superhero films are becoming more diverse now (in terms of both style and not being exclusive to white men), so hopefully audiences will have a less assumptions about what to expect from a superhero film.

Agree with this, I have seen so many misinterpreted moments in Snyder's movies. Personally I get his movies and more often than not what he is trying to say in scenes. Maybe it's something in the execution that makes people misinterpret his stuff?