Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

[Erzengel]

I'm not gonna lie, I want the movies to be successful, just like any movie in general I enjoy, and yet theres a part of me that has grown cynical of this Hollywood system and how they compromise these films that once had an artistic direction attached to them.

Absolutely. For example, I love Blade Runner 2049. But it didnt do well BO wise. But I wouldnt change a thing in it just so the "masses can like it". Its a movie, its a work of art, made by hours of work of many creators. I dont care about hollywood cynicism and second guessing audience tastes to focus group a movie...I would take one ****ing masterpiece over a trilogy of mediocrity.

In an ideal world, people want a movie they A - Like and B - Others like. It's more fun when people share your enthusiasm, right? But, if it comes down to one or the other, I prefer movies I like. I'll use the example of TDKR. Many people like it. I do not. I have no desires to rewatch it or anything. I am glad people get satisfaction out of that movie, but how does the satisfaction of others help me when I sit down to watch it? It doesn't. Conversely, many hated TLJ. I loved it. Yeah, it sometimes sucks when I get into the same debates in the Star Wars forum all the time, but when I sit down to watch it, I enjoy it. It brings me joy. I prefer to have that joy myself. After all, I only experience life through my own eyes. But again, having both is nice (I'm more of a Marvel guy, so I am spoiled in that regard, LOL). .

Blade Runner 2049 and I'd add Mad Max to that, are different that they are based/rebooted off of cult movies that were exactly box office juggernauts. No matter their quality, there isn't that mass appeal.

Star Wars is a different animal of it's own that even despite how divisive TLJ, it still was embraced critically and still made a lot of money. Star Wars will still be marketed at trying to appeal to the mass audience.

Batman v. Superman is not based on a cult flick but I think it falls closer to Star Wars in terms of pop culture. So that's why something as divisive as BvS still made what it did. The problem is you shouldn't be trying to make a niche film for 2 of the most popular comic book characters in history.

And I agree with what Aurakles says below...

I'm in a minority and pandering to me would be bad for business, so if we're talking about how to make WB the most money, absolutely Snyder was the wrong man for the job.

If WB/DC wants to make more main stream movies with the Justice League and other characters and try and do more niche stuff with Vertigo type characters or darker DC characters that's a way to keep both sides somewhat happy.

But you don't drop $250M to $300M just on production and try and deconstruct the A list characters and then wonder why they don't make over $1B and you don't continue to try and market certain characters that way if you want to do blockbusters.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Blade Runner 2049 and I'd add Mad Max to that, are different that they are based/rebooted off of cult movies that were exactly box office juggernauts.

Star Wars is a different animal of it's own that even despite how divisive TLJ, it still was embraced critically and still made a lot of money.

Batman v. Superman is not based on a cult flick but I think it falls closer to Star Wars in terms of pop culture. So that's why something as divisive as BvS still made what it did. The problem is you shouldn't be trying to make a niche film for 2 of the most popular comic book characters in history.

I agree in terms of thinking from a business stand point, you want something that will appeal to as many people as possible. But what I am saying isn't really about the business end, I am talking about personal enjoyment. I would rather watch something I enjoy than something that is popular that I don't like. If we're talking in terms of the business end of filmmaking, I agree with you 100%. But at the end of the day, ignoring all other factors about business, I want something I will enjoy when I dedicate 2+ hrs of my night to watch it. When we get both, that's phenomenal. But if I am to choose one or the other, I choose enjoyment.

 

[STARMAN]

When Snyder was announced as director I supported that decision. I do see qualities in him as a director and not simply a cinematographer. But Snyder is one of many directors that needs a screenwriter helping transfer his ideas on screen. He is not a verbal director. He is a visual director to the point when I find it a detriment at times. Even beautiful images and good ideas sometimes come off as overly staged. It gives a stiffness to some of the scenes and his intentions behind them. It also stiffens the performances, where even the veteran actors come off as wooden.

This is not to say Snyder doesn't have his merits. As I said, I see ability in him and like some of his films but even things I thought would be great when he was first announced has left me feeling cold. The flying sequences outside of his first flight have been dull. The third act battle sequences in both MOS and BvS bored me. Something I would have never initially expected from Snyder.

 

[idiot09]

I agree in terms of thinking from a business stand point, you want something that will appeal to as many people as possible. But what I am saying isn't really about the business end, I am talking about personal enjoyment. I would rather watch something I enjoy than something that is popular that I don't like. If we're talking in terms of the business end of filmmaking, I agree with you 100%. But at the end of the day, ignoring all other factors about business, I want something I will enjoy when I dedicate 2+ hrs of my night to watch it. When we get both, that's phenomenal. But if I am to choose one or the other, I choose enjoyment.

Exactly.

 

[Tra-El]

When Snyder was announced as director I supported that decision. I do see qualities in him as a director and not simply a cinematographer. But Snyder is one of many directors that needs a screenwriter helping transfer his ideas on screen. He is not a verbal director. He is a visual director to the point when I find it a detriment at times. Even beautiful images and good ideas sometimes come off as overly staged. It gives a stiffness to some of the scenes and his intentions behind them. It also stiffens the performances, where even the veteran actors come off as wooden.

This is not to say Snyder doesn't have his merits. As I said, I see ability in him and like some of his films but even things I thought would be great when he was first announced has left me feeling cold. The flying sequences outside of his first flight have been dull. The third act battle sequences in both MOS and BvS bored me. Something I would have never initially expected from Snyder.

I agree with Superman's flying. I expected more and even though there are some beautifully shot sequence's, he lacked balance with the type of speed he wanted to portray Superman with having. I understand his explanation and theory behind Superman's speed and how realistic that could come across to the human eye but you still have to have that knack to translate that to film so the majority of his application behind that looked messy.

I really enjoyed Spider-Man's first person point of view in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. That technique was much superior to what Snyder gave with his Superman. I'd like that to be studied and applied to Superman for sure in future takes.

 

[2kt09]

I really enjoyed Spider-Man's first person point of view in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. That technique was much superior to what Snyder gave with his Superman. I'd like that to be studied and applied to Superman for sure in future takes.

That sort of first person of view works best with characters who are abiding by sensible restrictions. Spider-Man treats his environment as a jungle in the same way Tarzan or Mowgli do.

Superman almost always has to travel fast into action and once the task is done he floats down.

 

[Limonade]

I agree in terms of thinking from a business stand point, you want something that will appeal to as many people as possible. But what I am saying isn't really about the business end, I am talking about personal enjoyment. I would rather watch something I enjoy than something that is popular that I don't like. If we're talking in terms of the business end of filmmaking, I agree with you 100%. But at the end of the day, ignoring all other factors about business, I want something I will enjoy when I dedicate 2+ hrs of my night to watch it. When we get both, that's phenomenal. But if I am to choose one or the other, I choose enjoyment.

I understand that people like what they like for their own reasons. But nobody wants Superman or Batman to merely appease a niche audience. That's the quickest way of diluting the brand and forcing a quick death to a franchise. As you saw in a smaller scope with JL with even more superheroes than BvS. The trajectory looked to be going downhill pretty fast, if you ask me.

It's unfortunate that Snyder fans didn't get their ending... but the rest of the audience didn't get their heroes either in the midst of the Snyder-fueled films... at least not completely. No one is completely happy to how this debacle turned out.

I would've been fine if Snyder stuck to a World's Finest Comic and used it like he did with 300. That's something I was initially excited for. Those amazing stories needed little polish and are already written for him--all he has to do is make them come out the panels. That is Snyder's amazing strength! Why couldn't they save themselves the money and hassle with Goyer's script, and do what worked in the past?

All I want is my comics to come to life. What Snyder did, though, was take multiple comics, some useless subplot, added additional setup for the next film, and mish-mashed them into some Frankenstein-ish monstrosity and called it BvS. Just like with Spider-man 3... the way those movies did so much and pleased only a small number of people.

 

[FunkMiller]

Found this on another website. Snyders reply on Vero to a person asking him why Wayne Manor was in the state it was in in BvS and Bruce was living in the lakehouse.

"I think his father commissioned the lakehouse as a gift to his mother a place built by her favorite architect and she loved it when Bruce turned 18 he moved in he ordered Wayne Manor be left to decompose"

I just can't with this guy, I'm sorry. So Bruce didn't even ever live in Wayne Manor as an adult? And Alfred just let Wayne Manor go to **** like that?

What an absolute gold plated cretin. Add this to the even more moronic notion that it’s Dick Grayson who’s the dead Robin, not Jason, and I struggle to see how anyone can still defend Snyder’s suitability to be anywhere near this character.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I understand that people like what they like for their own reasons. But nobody wants Superman or Batman to merely appease a niche audience. That's the quickest way of diluting the brand and forcing a quick death to a franchise. As you saw in a smaller scope with JL with even more superheroes than BvS. The trajectory looked to be going downhill pretty fast, if you ask me.

It's unfortunate that Snyder fans didn't get their ending... but the rest of the audience didn't get their heroes either in the midst of the Snyder-fueled films... at least not completely. No one is completely happy to how this debacle turned out.

I would've been fine if Snyder stuck to a World's Finest Comic and used it like he did with 300. That's something I was initially excited for. Those amazing stories needed little polish and are already written for him--all he has to do is make them come out the panels. That is Snyder's amazing strength! Why couldn't they save themselves the money and hassle with Goyer's script, and do what worked in the past?

All I want is my comics to come to life. What Snyder did, though, was take multiple comics, some useless subplot, added additional setup for the next film, and mish-mashed them into some Frankenstein-ish monstrosity and called it BvS. Just like with Spider-man 3... the way those movies did so much and pleased only a small number of people.

Again, I've been spoiled with Marvel because we have gotten movies I cherish and people on the whole love. It's wonderful, and I am sad DC fans didn't get that with the DCEU at this point, sans Wonder Woman.

But let's change gears for a second. I am a huge Marvel fan. Captain America is my favorite. Let's says I hated the MCU films. That when I watch them, I get no satisfaction out of them. Should I just accept the movies because they're popular? This is the point I am making. At the end of the day, if I am dedicating time in my life to films, I want to get something out of them and enjoy the ride. I value that over the film merely being popular. Captain America in my example being popular is great, but if his movies leave me empty, where is MY satisfaction?

We only get to live in our own skin. I am happy for other people who enjoy things I do not. Like my TDKR example, those that love it...rock on. Good for you. But, I'm selfish and I value my opinion and joy level over those of other people. So, if people who love Snyder's work on the series love his work, then why should they have wished a movie they enjoyed not be made? They got something they love out of it. Sucks not everyone did, but if you love a film, that should be what matters at the end of the day.

Again, I am talking in terms of enjoyment. From a business standpoint, yes...you want a wider audience than what they got. Love or hate his movies, you cannot deny that WB didn't get what they wanted, which is something WB most certainly SHOULD care about. But, that's a referendum of the box office of the film, not your personal perception. Only you can know if the joy MoS or BvS gives you outweighs the DCEU failing to reach the MCU in popularity.

 

[GothamBat]

 

[Limonade]

Again, I've been spoiled with Marvel because we have gotten movies I cherish and people on the whole love. It's wonderful, and I am sad DC fans didn't get that with the DCEU at this point, sans Wonder Woman.

But let's change gears for a second. I am a huge Marvel fan. Captain America is my favorite. Let's says I hated the MCU films. That when I watch them, I get no satisfaction out of them. Should I just accept the movies because they're popular? This is the point I am making. At the end of the day, if I am dedicating time in my life to films, I want to get something out of them and enjoy the ride. I value that over the film merely being popular. Captain America in my example being popular is great, but if his movies leave me empty, where is MY satisfaction?

We only get to live in our own skin. I am happy for other people who enjoy things I do not. Like my TDKR example, those that love it...rock on. Good for you. But, I'm selfish and I value my opinion and joy level over those of other people. So, if people who love Snyder's work on the series love his work, then why should they have wished a movie they enjoyed not be made? They got something they love out of it. Sucks not everyone did, but if you love a film, that should be what matters at the end of the day.

Again, I am talking in terms of enjoyment. From a business standpoint, yes...you want a wider audience than what they got. Love or hate his movies, you cannot deny that WB didn't get what they wanted, which is something WB most certainly SHOULD care about. But, that's a referendum of the box office of the film, not your personal perception. Only you can know if the joy MoS or BvS gives you outweighs the DCEU failing to reach the MCU in popularity.

There's also the flip-side to the argument, there are people who love the DC characters and want to match the same popularity if not more than Marvels. Why are they out of this equation?

I get that point of view of yours. But there's no reason for DC's superheroes to be pushed aside and struggle as they are now because Marvel's doing it one way and to match it would mean they're copying or pandering to the masses.

These two companies are cut from the same cloth! One does it better in comic form than the other! Why excuse the fault of the studio, film, production team... because--other's like it. That's never been what the constant outcry since MoS has been about.

 

[Micromind]

Again, I've been spoiled with Marvel because we have gotten movies I cherish and people on the whole love. It's wonderful, and I am sad DC fans didn't get that with the DCEU at this point, sans Wonder Woman.

But let's change gears for a second. I am a huge Marvel fan. Captain America is my favorite. Let's says I hated the MCU films. That when I watch them, I get no satisfaction out of them. Should I just accept the movies because they're popular? This is the point I am making. At the end of the day, if I am dedicating time in my life to films, I want to get something out of them and enjoy the ride. I value that over the film merely being popular. Captain America in my example being popular is great, but if his movies leave me empty, where is MY satisfaction?

We only get to live in our own skin. I am happy for other people who enjoy things I do not. Like my TDKR example, those that love it...rock on. Good for you. But, I'm selfish and I value my opinion and joy level over those of other people. So, if people who love Snyder's work on the series love his work, then why should they have wished a movie they enjoyed not be made? They got something they love out of it. Sucks not everyone did, but if you love a film, that should be what matters at the end of the day.

Again, I am talking in terms of enjoyment. From a business standpoint, yes...you want a wider audience than what they got. Love or hate his movies, you cannot deny that WB didn't get what they wanted, which is something WB most certainly SHOULD care about. But, that's a referendum of the box office of the film, not your personal perception. Only you can know if the joy MoS or BvS gives you outweighs the DCEU failing to reach the MCU in popularity.

Good point, say after 25 years, when you watch the same movie again, you don't think about how it was received when it was released. I mean ..who cares what was the second week drop or what was the movie multiplier ?

Only thing that matters is whether the movie was able to satisfy you or not.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There's also the flip-side to the argument, there are people who love the DC characters and want to match the same popularity if not more than Marvels. Why are they out of this equation?

I get that point of view of yours. But there's no reason for DC's superheroes to be pushed aside and struggle as they are now because Marvel's doing it one way and to match it would mean they're copying.

These two companies are cut from the same cloth! One does it better in comic form than the other! Why excuse the fault of the studio, film, production team... because--other's like it. That's never been what the constant outcry since MoS has been about.

It goes back to my point of if I am just judging what I want to dedicate MY time and energy to, then the opinions of other people are secondary. If the world were perfect, we'd get both, but someone should not have to apologize that something they loved was not popular.

In regards to MoS or BvS, I don't think either films are master pieces, but I also don't think they were Fan4stic either. I like many things in both, hate many things in both. Again, I am just saying that people who do find these to be amazing films and enjoy them really should not apologize they got something they loved and other people did not.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Good point, say after 25 years, when you watch the same movie again, you don't think about how it was received when it was released. I mean ..who cares what was the second week drop or what was the movie multiplier ?

Only thing that matters is whether the movie was able to satisfy you or not.

100% agreed

 

[Da-Scribe]

I've never once rewatched a movie or bought its home release because of how popular it was.

 

[chintai80]

haha. we are all batman in the knightmare scene.

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

 

[GothamBat]

 

[Limonade]

It goes back to my point of if I am just judging what I want to dedicate MY time and energy to, then the opinions of other people are secondary. If the world were perfect, we'd get both, but someone should not have to apologize that something they loved was not popular.

In regards to MoS or BvS, I don't think either films are master pieces, but I also don't think they were Fan4stic either. I like many things in both, hate many things in both. Again, I am just saying that people who do find these to be amazing films and enjoy them really should not apologize they got something they loved and other people did not.

You have people on both sides of the DC/Comic spectrum. That's not any different if the Marvel fandom takes a turn for the worst. That's fandom in general.

You have people ready to move on and you have people still relishing the past, currently. Yet, it's similar to the rub during the MoS debate in the forums in regards to the direction of Superman that Snyder was taking. Now the shoe's on the other foot--in regards to the direction of these movies now again.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Well I for one am happy for the people who got the one Snyder movie that they loved and that has tarnished the brand, I truly am. I hope they rewatch it atleast once a week while the DC brand burns to the ground movie wise.

I guess there's no other way these movies could've been made that they would possibly enjoy while at the same time laying a foundation for more of them to get made. No compromise.

What an absolute gold plated cretin. Add this to the even more moronic notion that it’s Dick Grayson who’s the dead Robin, not Jason, and I struggle to see how anyone can still defend Snyder’s suitability to be anywhere near this character.

Right!? And I didn't even know that it was supposed to be Grayson? So it was Grayson swinging a halberd in the streets? Nice, real nice. Where does that leave the Nightwing movie I wonder? Probably next to that Black Adam and Joker/Harley one.

Snyder made a movie for himself plain and simple. Problem is, he had no business using these characters to do so.

Oh FFS

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well I for one am happy for the people who got the one Snyder movie that they loved and that has tarnished the brand, I truly am. I hope they rewatch it atleast once a week while the DC brand burns to the ground movie wise.

I guess there's no other way these movies could've been made that they would possibly enjoy while at the same time laying a foundation for more of them to get made. No compromise.

I am sure a movie that satisfied everyone on both levels could have been made. But, it's not what was made. You cannot compromise about something after the fact. It's not like we can go back now and make a BvS everyone loves. BvS exists as it exists. At this point, all that matters is did you like it or not. The people that like it have nothing to apologize for.

 

[Da-Scribe]

I am sure a movie that satisfied everyone on both levels could have been made. But, it's not what was made. You cannot compromise about something after the fact. It's not like we can go back now and make a BvS everyone loves. BvS exists as it exists. At this point, all that matters is did you like it or not. The people that like it have nothing to apologize for.

It's ridiculous that you keep having to explain this. I can't believe people are actually bothered that BvS has fans.

 

[Tra-El]

That sort of first person of view works best with characters who are abiding by sensible restrictions. Spider-Man treats his environment as a jungle in the same way Tarzan or Mowgli do.

Superman almost always has to travel fast into action and once the task is done he floats down.

Yeah I understand that but from a pure visual standpoint that looks appealing to the eye, I would like those same sensibilities applied to Superman in flight and make speed an essence of wonder in visuals rather than seeing him take off at Mach force speeds. There are ways to make Superman's speed a force but at the same time, slown down to appreciate it.

The knock on Snyder at the time Man of Steel came out was his use of slow-mo. I was actually looking forward to that in how he would slow Superman down in flight but he went the complete opposite. I appreciated the technical approach but we need more balance as far as making it look more fluid..and awesome.

For the record, I always loved how Reeve floated down from flight and used his one boot for a soft landing. So classic and suttlle.

 

[idiot09]

It's ridiculous that you keep having to explain this. I can't believe people are actually bothered that BvS has fans.

Yeah its frankly weird.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I am sure a movie that satisfied everyone on both levels could have been made. But, it's not what was made. You cannot compromise about something after the fact. It's not like we can go back now and make a BvS everyone loves. BvS exists as it exists. At this point, all that matters is did you like it or not. The people that like it have nothing to apologize for.

Nor do the people who utterly hate it. He made a piece of art now it's getting critiqued. I think that's fair game.

It's ridiculous that you keep having to explain this. I can't believe people are actually bothered that BvS has fans.

No one is saying this, I even said I'm glad for those who enjoyed it. I'm saying Snyder is the wrong stuff for a fruitful DC cinematic universe. He's been putting out a bunch of answers to questions his fans still have on Vero 2 years after the movie. Basically explaining the movie after the fact (Lord knows why right?) I dislike his answers so I try to discredit him. That's all it is.

Have I nothing better to do you ask? Sure, but I can afford to do this.

 

[Da-Scribe]

No one is saying this, I even said I'm glad for those who enjoyed it.I'm saying Snyder is the wrong stuff for a fruitful DC cinematic universe. He's been putting out a bunch of answers to questions his fans still have on Vero 2 years after the movie. Basically explaining the movie after the fact (Lord knows why right?) I dislike his answers so I try to discredit him. That's all it is.

Have I nothing better to do you ask? Sure, but I can afford to do this.

Well I for one am happy for the people who got the one Snyder movie that they loved and that has tarnished the brand, I truly am. I hope they rewatch it atleast once a week while the DC brand burns to the ground movie wise.

I guess there's no other way these movies could've been made that they would possibly enjoy while at the same time laying a foundation for more of them to get made. No compromise.

Yeah man you seem real happy for the fans.

At any rate, you seem really upset about a director that is no longer making movies for this universe explaining things about a series of films he never got to finish that involve details that aren't at all canon.

Do you though.