Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

[kguillou]

You know what's funny, just for ****s and giggles, I went to the User Review Thread and read through the initial few pages worth of reactions from everyone and it seemed unanimously very positive. A lot of us, myself included, were saying "the film is a lot of fun, the characters are great, Superman rocks, but Steppenwolf's kind of whatever and the CGI is spotty." That seemed to be consensus and people seemed happy...it wasn't until I would say a week after release that I think a lot of us seemed to start having serious second thoughts about the movie and now the consensus amongst most of us is that its the most embarrassing DC movie they've made thus far. lol

I dunno, its a weird effect this movie has brought out in the fans or maybe we just don't know what we want.

 

[_Superman_]

You know what's funny, just for ****s and giggles, I went to the User Review Thread and read through the initial few pages worth of reactions from everyone and it seemed unanimously very positive. A lot of us, myself included, were saying "the film is a lot of fun, the characters are great, Superman rocks, but Steppenwolf's kind of whatever and the CGI is spotty." That seemed to be consensus and people seemed happy...it wasn't until I would say a week after release that I think a lot of us seemed to start having serious second thoughts about the movie and now the consensus amongst most of us is that its the most embarrassing DC movie they've made thus far. lol

I dunno, its a weird effect this movie has brought out in the fans or maybe we just don't know what we want.

Honestly if i didn't know about the bts stuff i would've looked at this movie like F4 where itz was a average to good movie but just felt incomplete. However knowing what i do know i feel this is a completely different movie and not at all what we were promised.

 

[Micromind]

As long as he's wearing gloves. He didn't originally wear gloves back in the day. Didn't have to worry about finger prints then.

the s should be small and inside a small yellow shield!

and he wore blue boots, not red!

I hope someone makes an "else-world" standalone movie set in 1940's, which has Trinity in their Original costumes.

 

[signalman]

Owlman did wear the 1939 Bat-Uniform in BATMAN: THE BRAVE & THE BOLD, "Game Over for Owlman".

 

[Aurakles]

I love Brave and the Bold, was a bit disappointed they didn't work an "Outrageous" into Justice League. Hoping it'll be in Aquaman.

 

[Tra-El]

I mean Batman is not real. He can react to situations in whatever way a creator deems necessary for the story. I know I will now be deemed less of a fan for saying that, but this is my general feeling on every fictional character. That doesn't mean I'll like every change that's made, but I firmly believe every artist has the right to experiment and such experiments should be judged on their own merits.

You're on a roll, Da-Scribe:

 

[super85]

heatvision38

Batman did actually wear gloves, but Purple ones. I Think that scan is just of low quality. DC Direct released "first appearence" action figures som years back and Batman had Purple gloves. and to make things even more confusing, sometimes when DC reprints the first apperance comics, Batman suddently has normal black gloves, because somebody who edits has probably asked the colorist to add that in.

 

[Tra-El]

I’m not side stepping anything. I’m just saying that Snyder moves Batman too far away from his intrinsic elements, which is of detriment to the character. I know you’ll argue against that, and neither of us will change our minds, so let’s save us both lots of typing time, eh?

Snyder does this intentionally, though. In his version, the familiar Batman that you speak of that has his intrinsic elements have already occurred at one point during his crusade against Justice. This wasn't an origin Batman or even a primed Batman. Snyder intentionally broke him down to a dire state of mind. A hero that lost his way. A hero made out to be the villain. That was a theme in BvS. That was a mark Zack wanted to hit. It's not like Zack read the source material and COMPLETELY got that source material wrong about Batman's true instinctual beats over the course of his own history..whichever history you would want to source. That's not the case. Snyder's Batman theme in BvS was CLEAR. The entire point was to watch Bruce find his way back to the hero he was always destined to be and more importantly, the hero he once was. It has nothing to do with being detrimental to the character as it was reminding ourselves of who that character IS at the core. Snyder simply played on those themes ontop of a tragic redemption story.

That said, though BvS was a Batman that we've never seen before (atleast to a cinematic extent), to me, Batfleck felt more BATMAN than ever. It still felt like Batman to me and how Batman would react to this world Zack created around him. That's important but all it boils down to is the creative freedoms an artist may have with his own version of a character that has a history and a lore. Everything is in play and everything exists the moment it is created. Like it or not, Zack added to the pantheon that is Batman with his DCEU take. You don't have to accept it as a fan, but it can now be referenced.

 

[Aurakles]

I think just as comics can add new ideas to the mythos of a character, the films can too. If writers can't take a few liberties, introduce a few new concepts and put twists on existing lore, then the characters will stagnate and we'll just get the same stories repeated over and over, just with updated dialogue and variation in art styles.

Storytellers should be able to create niche versions of the characters, playing into their personal tastes, because that's what infuses these characters with fresh energy, and creates a broader fan base for the character. These characters benefit from the fact that they have fans who have completely different tastes.

Batman stories have been comedy, horror, detective, sci-fi, supernatural, adventure, tragedy and more. Pick up a volume of Batman Black and White and you'll find characters who act in a variety of different ways, but are all undeniably Batman.

Some aspects may be core to the concept of Batman, but where he lives isn't one of them. There are various stories where Bruce Wayne doesn't live in Wayne Manor, but they aren't untrue to the character simply because of that.

I think this is something that elseworld stories are a great example of, they show how you can make vast changes to the lore and still retain the essential spirit of the character. Batman doesn't need to be in Gotham, or in the present day, or even be Bruce Wayne.

The films should be viewed more as elsewords, non-cannon stories with their own take on the characters.

 

[FunkMiller]

Snyder does this intentionally, though.

Yes. That was the problem, because it was largely awful.

The suit was great, though.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I think just as comics can add new ideas to the mythos of a character, the films can too. If writers can't take a few liberties, introduce a few new concepts and put twists on existing lore, then the characters will stagnate and we'll just get the same stories repeated over and over, just with updated dialogue and variation in art styles.

Storytellers should be able to create niche versions of the characters, playing into their personal tastes, because that's what infuses these characters with fresh energy, and creates a broader fan base for the character. These characters benefit from the fact that they have fans who have completely different tastes.

Batman stories have been comedy, horror, detective, sci-fi, supernatural, adventure, tragedy and more. Pick up a volume of Batman Black and White and you'll find characters who act in a variety of different ways, but are all undeniably Batman.

Some aspects may be core to the concept of Batman, but where he lives isn't one of them. There are various stories where Bruce Wayne doesn't live in Wayne Manor, but they aren't untrue to the character simply because of that.

I think this is something that elseworld stories are a great example of, they show how you can make vast changes to the lore and still retain the essential spirit of the character. Batman doesn't need to be in Gotham, or in the present day, or even be Bruce Wayne.

The films should be viewed more as elsewords, non-cannon stories with their own take on the characters.

Don't expect to build a succesful cinematic universe based on Elseworld concepts is the lesson here. Not if you're Zack Snyder.

Which is what they did.

 

[misslane38]

Yes. That was the problem, because it was largely awful.

I mean, this is subjective. So, if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. Just like it's hard to watch people you love in real life struggle, it's probably hard to watch a character you love at one of their lowest points in life. For me, it was compelling drama and character work that rewarded me at the end with something cathartic and inspiring. From the first notes of "Beautiful Lie," I was moved to tears and moved for Batman in a way I never had before; it's a story about trauma and healing, and it really worked for me on that level.

Don't expect to build a succesful cinematic universe based on Elseworld concepts is the lesson here. Not if you're Zack Snyder.

Which is what they did.

Not really.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Not really.

As in they were NOT out to build a cinematic universe?

 

[misslane38]

As in they were NOT out to build a cinematic universe?

No. They weren't Elseworld concepts. It's not as if mainstream movies or comics haven't explored some of these things before. I think the Elseworld label doesn't fit, in other words.

 

[flickchick85]

You know what's funny, just for ****s and giggles, I went to the User Review Thread and read through the initial few pages worth of reactions from everyone and it seemed unanimously very positive. A lot of us, myself included, were saying "the film is a lot of fun, the characters are great, Superman rocks, but Steppenwolf's kind of whatever and the CGI is spotty." That seemed to be consensus and people seemed happy...it wasn't until I would say a week after release that I think a lot of us seemed to start having serious second thoughts about the movie and now the consensus amongst most of us is that its the most embarrassing DC movie they've made thus far. lol

I dunno, its a weird effect this movie has brought out in the fans or maybe we just don't know what we want.

I just went back and read my review in there due to your post, and having seen the film a couple more times now, largely I'd say my feelings remain the same - the movie is obviously a mess from a technical standpoint, and the seams REALLY show, both in the plot and editing/fx, but it's still a mostly enjoyable mess to me. Like, when it starts airing on TV, I might actually put it on, unlike BvS and SS. And I did indeed like Superman for the first time in this universe, so as someone who's primarily a Supes fan, that makes it almost good enough to buy for me. Almost. If only I'd enjoyed the other characters more.

It's the blatantly visible seams that make it "embarrassing" to me more than anything, just because we're not used to those things being so obvious in such a huge-budgeted studio tentpole, so it gives off an "unprofessional" vibe.

 

[flickchick85]

Comments like this convince me a lot of Snyder fans aren't really fans of the comic characters he's made films about.

Let's leave the "real fans" garbage at home, please.

 

[kguillou]

I just went back and read my review in there due to your post, and having seen the film a couple more times now, largely I'd say my feelings remain the same - the movie is obviously a mess from a technical standpoint, and the seams REALLY show, both in the plot and editing/fx, but it's still a mostly enjoyable mess to me. Like, when it starts airing on TV, I might actually put it on, unlike BvS and SS. And I did indeed like Superman for the first time in this universe, so as someone who's primarily a Supes fan, that makes it almost good enough to buy for me. Almost. If only I'd enjoyed the other characters more.

It's the blatantly visible seams that make it "embarrassing" to me more than anything, just because we're not used to those things being so obvious in such a huge-budgeted studio tentpole, so it gives off an "unprofessional" vibe.

I agree with you completely ( although I've always liked Zack's Supes )But yes, the seams in this movie make it FEEL very unprofessional and messy. IMO its not AS messy as Suicide Squad but still feels like two different films meshed together and it feels incomplete. The meta knowledge about the movie also really taints it but on its OWN terms, it is a very fun movie.

I will say though, i think its one of those movies upon rewatches isnt as satisfying as the first time. I think when your watching it for the first time, youre geeking out at seeing all these characters for the first time and seeing them do all these cool geeky things like seeing Superman use freeze breath that youre judgment is clouded a bit. Then when that initial excitement wears off it isnt as fantastic and tou start paying attention to the flaws more.

 

[flickchick85]

I agree with you completely ( although I've always liked Zack's Supes )But yes, the seams in this movie make it FEEL very unprofessional and messy. IMO its not AS messy as Suicide Squad but still feels like two different films meshed together and it feels incomplete. The meta knowledge about the movie also really taints it but on its OWN terms, it is a very fun movie.

I will say though, i think its one of those movies upon rewatches isnt as satisfying as the first time. I think when your watching it for the first time, youre geeking out at seeing all these characters for the first time and seeing them do all these cool geeky things like seeing Superman use freeze breath that youre judgment is clouded a bit. Then when that initial excitement wears off it isnt as fantastic and tou start paying attention to the flaws more.

Yes, and there's also just the added fan-driven disappointment of this being the first ever Justice League film, and the best we can say about it is "messy but enjoyable." That's fine for other CBM's, but from the POV of a DC fangirl, the first JL film was supposed to be nothing short of EPIC. Like, my love for any of Marvel's characters doesn't even come close to my love for my DC faves, but my hype for Infinity War is through the roof anyway, so I can't even imagine how incredibly hyped I would have been if WB had played this differently. So there's that added fan disappointment factor of "what should have been" that further sullies how we look at this film, I think.

And for the record, while I have been vocal about my unhappiness with Zack's take on Supes, I can still admit MoS is the notably better film regardless of my preference for JL's take on the character. If MoS and WW were the only DCEU films in existence right now, and we were about to get Reeves' Batman and Wan's Aquaman, all still building toward a JL film, I think the mood would be VERY different right now. Because to me, those are the two that felt like actual films and not just WB seeing $$$ and wanting the fastest cash-in possible.

 

[FunkMiller]

Let's leave the "real fans" garbage at home, please.

Poor choice of words. Apologies. I guess what I was trying to say was that for some, Snyder’s style and work may be more important to them than staying closer to the Batman source material. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I shouldn’t have worded it the way I did.

 

[Black Narcissus]

And some of us can be cool with change of source material without being labeled Snyder fanboys.

 

[flickchick85]

Poor choice of words. Apologies. I guess what I was trying to say was that for some, Snyder’s style and work may be more important to them than staying closer to the Batman source material. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I shouldn’t have worded it the way I did.

Well different fans are more attached to different elements of the source material than others, though. For example, as a Supes fan, I had no problem with Lois knowing Clark was Superman from the get-go. I actually liked that change to the classic mythos. Some other fans had a problem with it, though. Are they bigger fans of the source material than me? I highly doubt it.

 

[misslane38]

Poor choice of words. Apologies. I guess what I was trying to say was that for some, Snyder’s style and work may be more important to them than staying closer to the Batman source material. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I shouldn’t have worded it the way I did.

What do you mean by "important" to someone? I am not pleased with MoS or BvS because I care more for a particular filmmaker or style than I do a good story or the characters. I also think "staying close to...source material" is a broad and complicated endeavor given the range of source material out there and the nature of stories, like MoS and BvS, that stay true to that source material in the sense that the characters aren't just presented as the status quo but evolve into something close to that. Your revised comments here, therefore, still present a level of gatekeeping I'm not comfortable with.

 

[kguillou]

Yes, and there's also just the added fan-driven disappointment of this being the first ever Justice League film, and the best we can say about it is "messy but enjoyable." That's fine for other CBM's, but from the POV of a DC fangirl, the first JL film was supposed to be nothing short of EPIC. Like, my love for any of Marvel's characters doesn't even come close to my love for my DC faves, but my hype for Infinity War is through the roof anyway, so I can't even imagine how incredibly hyped I would have been if WB had played this differently. So there's that added fan disappointment factor of "what should have been" that further sullies how we look at this film, I think.

And for the record, while I have been vocal about my unhappiness with Zack's take on Supes, I can still admit MoS is the notably better film regardless of my preference for JL's take on the character. If MoS and WW were the only DCEU films in existence right now, and we were about to get Reeves' Batman and Wan's Aquaman, all still building toward a JL film, I think the mood would be VERY different right now. Because to me, those are the two that felt like actual films and not just WB seeing $$$ and wanting the fastest cash-in possible.

Agreed, and now with WB its sort of "three strikes your out" in terms of trusting them with these films. They meddled in BvS, then SS and then JL. When news about the reshoots for JL came, i and the rest of us gave WB the benefit of the doubt for the last time that "its no big deal, theyre just adding connective tissue." Now, if news about reshoots surfaces about any other DC film going forward, its gonna be a PR nightmare.

 

[The Guard]

You know what's funny, just for ****s and giggles, I went to the User Review Thread and read through the initial few pages worth of reactions from everyone and it seemed unanimously very positive. A lot of us, myself included, were saying "the film is a lot of fun, the characters are great, Superman rocks, but Steppenwolf's kind of whatever and the CGI is spotty." That seemed to be consensus and people seemed happy...it wasn't until I would say a week after release that I think a lot of us seemed to start having serious second thoughts about the movie and now the consensus amongst most of us is that its the most embarrassing DC movie they've made thus far. lol

I dunno, its a weird effect this movie has brought out in the fans or maybe we just don't know what we want.

There's something to be said for first experiences VS further analysis, but there are still people who enjoyed the movie, flaws and all. I think some are just hesitant to say much about it in the forums, because there's a rather vocal negative echo chamber currently here at SHH. If you don't go along with the consensus, you tend to be singled out and have your views attacked, your fandom questioned, etc. It doesn't make for pleasant or especially productive discussion.

Much the same happened with MOS and various other films. It'll be a while, but I suspect a lot of people will eventually get over "what might have been", go back to watching a movie about some of their favorite heroes, and a good bit of them will start to enjoy it for what it is, start to see and appreciate the elements that are ignored because the entire film has been broadly brushed with "It's all bad", etc.

 

[FunkMiller]

Well different fans are more attached to different elements of the source material than others, though. For example, as a Supes fan, I had no problem with Lois knowing Clark was Superman from the get-go. I actually liked that change to the classic mythos. Some other fans had a problem with it, though. Are they bigger fans of the source material than me? I highly doubt it.

Yep. That’s more than fair enough. Everyone’s entitled to accept or reject and changes made to fictional characters. For instance, I could care less about any changes the MCU makes to its characters. If a film is good, and the characterisation works, that’s all that matters. For me, Mr Snyder just didn’t make a good movie, and his characterisation doesn’t work... but I recognise that for others, this is not the case. I suppose if I saw something in Snyder’s Batman that said something new or interesting about the character, I’d have less of a problem with moving away from the source material, but all I see is a badly conceived version of Frank Miller’s Dark Knight that was an entirely unsuitable characterisation for the start of a cinematic universe. As a Batman fan, I just want the character to be enjoyed by lots of people, in movies that are popular and well received. We’re sadly very far away from that right now.