Zoe Kravitz IS Catwoman

Discussion in 'The Batman' started by James.B, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    Oh ok mr producer. Sorry but the story calls for something else.

    What would be the point of sending her away only to have her already be back in Gotham when the sequel starts? You may as well have kept her in Gotham. Where's the impact when she returns? Why would she even come back after what she experienced? And why would she return during the middle of a bloody power grab that she seemed to not have any interest in? At least delay her comeback for dramatic purposes and give a damn good reason why she decided to split Bludhaven or whatever city she fled to.

    I do think she'll have an important role. Hell, they may even market the sequel around Batman and Catwoman as the second lead. But within the context of the story? It doesn't make much sense to me. Especially when you know how sneaky Selina is, what kind of an opportunist she is. She’s going to wait for the right time, and Matt probably knows that fans are expecting her to be elsewhere since the final scene will be fresh in everyone’s mind.

    There's also so much you have to do with Bruce socially, bring ppl up to speed on what’s been happening in the city, introduce new characters, what the plot and "detective case" is going to be this time. At the very least she's a no go for the first act. Second act return minimum.

    If there’s a second lead, I’d vote Gordon.
     
  2. Eddie Dean Jokerfied

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    15,965
    Likes Received:
    9,459
    The time Selina is gone from Gotham happens in between movies. Why would she come back right away? She didn’t.
     
  3. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    Glad you’re not writing a screenplay. No build up, nuthin!
     
  4. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    15,241
    Likes Received:
    7,750
    I have a question to pose. Did Selina have an arc in The Batman? On first glance, it would seem so. It feels like some of Batman's "vengeance isn't the answer" arc was supposed to have been mirrored with her. She looks horrified when he's pounding that thug within an inch of his life.

    But then she casually floats the idea of going on a murder spree with Batman at the end. Is she saying that in jest? Does she mean it? It's not exactly clear to me where her character is at by the end. I would totally understand if she wants to continue being a thief and doing what she needs to survive, and getting out of Gotham. That makes total sense. The idea of her being a murderous vigilante feels a bit at odds to me with what her character goes through in the movie. I feel like she comes to Batman's aid at the end because she recognizes that he helped save her from crossing a line maybe she wasn't really ready to cross. They save each other.

    I get that it's a nod to the more villainous side of Selina/Catwoman and the classic conflicted relationship they have in the comics. I'm just not sure where it came from in this particular story. Maybe I'm placing too much weight on that line, but the line could've easily been "let's get into some trouble" or something vague. "Let's knock off some CEO-hedgefund types, it'll be fun!" is a totally different level though that to me casts her morally and philosophically as almost no different than The Riddler in this movie. I guess it's a bit of a cliffhanger to see what side of the line she'll end up on, but I'm wondering where she made that leap based on where she was at in the third act.
     
    #1704 BatLobster, Jun 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  5. Gandhi Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    197
    I always took that line that line to mean rob rather than murder. In fact, the thought that it meant murder has never crossed my mind tbh. I’d be interested to see how others read it?

    It’s funny when you look that phrase up though as the dictionary has it meaning both rob and kill separately.

    7E68B430-11CA-4051-8AD1-A497A7A5A4D9.jpeg

    She’s just witnessed Batman knock the gun out her hand on the roof and stop her from killing Falcone so I can’t see how she’d think he’d ever agree to that. I think she either meant rob or it was just a joke.
     
    #1705 Gandhi, Jun 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  6. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    15,241
    Likes Received:
    7,750
    Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I always interpreted it as kill, and wasn't too familiar with it being used in the other way. I suppose a hint of ambiguity in the language there makes it more noir, but I feel better now knowing that it can also mean rob. Thanks for clearing that up!
     
    #1706 BatLobster, Jun 15, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
    Gandhi likes this.
  7. DeadlyWest A Flare in the Dark (he/him/his)

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    3,011
    I'd say she does but not in the sense you're thinking

    Selina's story in this is kinda like Batman's but she comes to a different conclusion. While Batman concludes that the city is a cesspool but it's worth fighting for and can be saved, she wants nothing to do with it. The movie just brings her to that conclusion, before she inevitably comes back to fuel her own ends.
     
    BatLobster likes this.
  8. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    15,241
    Likes Received:
    7,750
    I see what you're saying there. The only thing for me is that I think she starts off pretty cynical (with good reason) and ends pretty cynical. I'm not sure any of her core beliefs fundamentally change. So I'm not sure if that's an arc, per se. Not that she has to have one, but just curious what people thought about that.
     
    shauner111 likes this.
  9. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    She meant steal from them and take them down in that way.
     
    AVEITWITHJAMON likes this.
  10. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    She doesn’t have an arc, which is refreshing. Not everybody goes through a transformation all at once. Some folks don’t learn anything from their experience. Batman does in this case but most of the others don’t. Or I like the tragedy of a character gaining knowledge who then decides to go the negative route instead of the positive. And honestly, that’s Selina Kyle most of the time.
     
  11. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    Knock-off could mean kill or it could mean taking them down in a different way. Since it’s Selina saying the line to Batman, it’s gotta mean stealing, taking them down a peg, arresting, kicking their ass etc. She also has that kind of sense of humour so who knows with her. Either way, she’s learnt nothing from the experience and just wants more of it elsewhere...which tickles me lol. Like Fincher says “I love characters who don’t learn from their mistakes”. I hope Selina never changes in this trilogy and doesn’t come to any positive realization. She just keeps looking out for herself. I like my Selina to be selfish but with hints of compassion for the “small guy”. Only to never step outside of that. At her core she’s a thief, and she’ll do whatever it takes to survive. Murder, stealing, whatever. And that’s why I’m so happy Reeves never wants her and Bruce to be together in the end. Keep the flirting and the push and pull.
     
    AVEITWITHJAMON and Lautox like this.
  12. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    15,241
    Likes Received:
    7,750
    I'm an idiot and truly didn't think of the other meaning of "knock off", but that changes the whole thing for me. I like to think she used that to be a bit provocative to Bats. Almost a dare to stop her as much as an invitation to join her. Either way, she wants to "play".

    I think it's interesting because honestly if this was a one and done appearance for Selina I think it ends in a place that sums up their classic dynamic pretty well. But if she's going to be a recurring character in a trilogy, I wonder what that journey is going to look like. In a way I feel like this trilogy is setup to be Batman and Catwoman's story as the main focal point.
     
    shauner111 likes this.
  13. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    ”She wants to play” sums her up pretty well.

    According to Reeves, when she returns, there will be more conflict between her and Batman. He said something along the lines of .. Batman won’t be happy about what side of the war she’s on.
     
  14. I Am The Knight Voilá!

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    24,895
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    I do consider she has a bit of an "arc" but it's not some grand declaration of what she will need to become like Batman's arc. It happens kinda fast and you have to relate it to how she has to process what's happened to her emotionally because of her father. They set up her resentment and the relationship (or lack thereof) with her father, the guy who allowed her to have a s**** childhood and never really cared for her. She hits a low point emotionally when she learns that he killed Annika, which drives her to seek revenge for her friend / lover. But it's clear she's also doing it for herself (only reason why she bothers with presenting herself as Maria Kyle's kid) and the years of neglect. What she realizes when Batman stops her from killing her father is that this kind of vengeance will just bring more suffering for her. And so she realizes that she has to let go. Once she sees Falcone lying dead on the floor outside the club, she's not angry anymore. She can move on and get past her personal baggage. Had she left Gotham at the start of the film she would still have unfinished business with her father, allowing that resentment to grow and poison her soul, because she would never have any resolution to the feelings she's had towards him all these years.

    I understand that some people may not consider that a "real arc" but I think she does learn something and gets some release for her inner turmoil.
     
  15. WatchProtect Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2019
    Messages:
    1,716
    Likes Received:
    2,026
    Shes certainly an integral character to this film and the comics but I almost wouldn't mind not seeing her in another Reeves film, I'm sure she will be but I think she served this story perfectly and I really don't see a reason she'd need to go back to Gotham.

    The obvious answer though is she becomes a thief for hire and someone hires her for a job there. Sionis, Hugo, maybe even Bruce himself
     
  16. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    I didn’t really get the vibe that she stopped being angry and let go. I took it more like “yeaaah I’m not going to prison for this A-hole. Touche batboy” Lol.
     
  17. shauner111 Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    22,696
    Likes Received:
    8,485
    Entitlement. I deserve this spot, not them. The east end is unprotected, let me change that. Yada yada.

    While she’s settled back in, maybe somebody hires her to do a job. Thorne or Cobblepot could be a good target for her. Or Wayne?? *evil smirk*
     
  18. pixen Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    4,153
    Likes Received:
    669
    She needs to be in the sequel(s). Especially if she doesn’t get her own spin off.
     
  19. Invader Joker Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Messages:
    6,405
    Likes Received:
    5,152
    I did get that vibe, especially because it was obvious that in general she was not as comfortable with violence as she tried to claim she was in the rooftop scene. When she saw Savage get murdered she had a look of shock in her face that made it very clear she wasn't enjoying what she was watching, and then she was in absolute shock when she saw Batman beating up on the thug that tried to murder her in the end. Not to mention she was quite literally crying in the scene where Batman held her and stopped her from murdering Falcone which I think went a bit deeper than just her own sense of self-preservation. I think there's a lot of layers to her we get the glimpse of in the movie, and a lot of those layers are due to Kravitz performance and her choices in key scenes. You get the sense she's not even who she thinks she is and that all her bravado is more of a way to hide how hurt and vulnerable she feels inside and how she doesn't feel as home with violence as everybody else does but has to pretend to herself she does because of how the city is.

    TheBatmanPaidEnough.png

    She didn't even seem satisfied at all when Falcone finally died, she just seemed empty inside.


    TB-00_39_54_892.png
    TheBatmanSelinaOver.jpg

    The reason she ran away from the city in the end is probably because there's too much baggage there for her to feel comfortable in it. Her girlfriend died, her co-workers in the Iceberg Lounge probably died too because of the flood, Falcone died, and there's also the key fact that she fell in love with Batman and she probably doesn't feel prepared to that at all, even Matt hinted as much. But even then, in that final scene, I think it's kinda obvious she really really wanted Batman to tell her to stay but he didn't, she just looked so sad when she finally had to say goodbye to him. I even read the dialogue where she says the whole "let's rob rich people together" thing differently, she knew he wouldn't accept that but I think she was hoping for a counter-proposal.
     
    #1719 Invader Joker, Jul 3, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
    Rick190293 and Lautox like this.
  20. milesmvspeterp Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2022
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    8
    Catwoman will get a spinoff and star in part 2 or both. This Catwoman is too big
     
    pixen and antsman41 like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"