Zoe Kravitz IS Catwoman

[shauner111]

She’s the second lead in the sequel and if you don’t think that you don’t know how movies work

Oh ok mr producer. Sorry but the story calls for something else.

What would be the point of sending her away only to have her already be back in Gotham when the sequel starts? You may as well have kept her in Gotham. Where's the impact when she returns? Why would she even come back after what she experienced? And why would she return during the middle of a bloody power grab that she seemed to not have any interest in? At least delay her comeback for dramatic purposes and give a damn good reason why she decided to split Bludhaven or whatever city she fled to.

I do think she'll have an important role. Hell, they may even market the sequel around Batman and Catwoman as the second lead. But within the context of the story? It doesn't make much sense to me. Especially when you know how sneaky Selina is, what kind of an opportunist she is. She’s going to wait for the right time, and Matt probably knows that fans are expecting her to be elsewhere since the final scene will be fresh in everyone’s mind.

There's also so much you have to do with Bruce socially, bring ppl up to speed on what’s been happening in the city, introduce new characters, what the plot and "detective case" is going to be this time. At the very least she's a no go for the first act. Second act return minimum.

If there’s a second lead, I’d vote Gordon.

 

[Eddie Dean]

The time Selina is gone from Gotham happens in between movies. Why would she come back right away? She didn’t.

 

[shauner111]

Glad you’re not writing a screenplay. No build up, nuthin!

 

[BatLobster]

I have a question to pose. Did Selina have an arc in The Batman? On first glance, it would seem so. It feels like some of Batman's "vengeance isn't the answer" arc was supposed to have been mirrored with her. She looks horrified when he's pounding that thug within an inch of his life.

But then she casually floats the idea of going on a murder spree with Batman at the end. Is she saying that in jest? Does she mean it? It's not exactly clear to me where her character is at by the end. I would totally understand if she wants to continue being a thief and doing what she needs to survive, and getting out of Gotham. That makes total sense. The idea of her being a murderous vigilante feels a bit at odds to me with what her character goes through in the movie. I feel like she comes to Batman's aid at the end because she recognizes that he helped save her from crossing a line maybe she wasn't really ready to cross. They save each other.

I get that it's a nod to the more villainous side of Selina/Catwoman and the classic conflicted relationship they have in the comics. I'm just not sure where it came from in this particular story. Maybe I'm placing too much weight on that line, but the line could've easily been "let's get into some trouble" or something vague. "Let's knock off some CEO-hedgefund types, it'll be fun!" is a totally different level though that to me casts her morally and philosophically as almost no different than The Riddler in this movie. I guess it's a bit of a cliffhanger to see what side of the line she'll end up on, but I'm wondering where she made that leap based on where she was at in the third act.

 

[Gandhi]

I have a question to pose. Did Selina have an arc in The Batman? On first glance, it would seem so. It feels like some of Batman's "vengeance isn't the answer" arc was supposed to have been mirrored with her. She looks horrified when he's pounding that thug within an inch of his life.

But then she casually floats the idea of going on a murder spree with Batman at the end. Is she saying that in jest? Does she mean it? It's not exactly clear to me where her character is at by the end. I would totally understand if she wants to continue being a thief and doing what she needs to survive, and getting out of Gotham. That makes total sense. The idea of her being a murderous vigilante feels a bit at odds to me with what her character goes through in the movie. I feel like she comes to Batman's aid at the end because she recognizes that he helped save her from crossing a line maybe she wasn't really ready to cross. They save each other.

I get that it's a nod to the more villainous side of Selina/Catwoman and the classic conflicted relationship they have in the comics. I'm just not sure where it came from in this particular story. Maybe I'm placing too much weight on that line, but the line could've easily been "let's get into some trouble" or something vague. "Let's knock off some CEO-hedgefund types, it'll be fun!" is a totally different level though that to me casts her morally and philosophically as almost no different than The Riddler in this movie. I guess it's a bit of a cliffhanger to see what side of the line she'll end up on, but I'm wondering where she made that leap based on where she was at in the third act.

I always took that line that line to mean rob rather than murder. In fact, the thought that it meant murder has never crossed my mind tbh. I’d be interested to see how others read it?

It’s funny when you look that phrase up though as the dictionary has it meaning both rob and kill separately.



She’s just witnessed Batman knock the gun out her hand on the roof and stop her from killing Falcone so I can’t see how she’d think he’d ever agree to that. I think she either meant rob or it was just a joke.

 

[BatLobster]

View attachment 56496

I always took that line that line to mean rob rather than murder. In fact, the thought that it meant murder has never crossed my mind tbh. I’d be interested to see how others read it?

It’s funny when you look that phrase up though as the dictionary has it meaning both rob and kill separately.

View attachment 56496

She’s just witnessed Batman knock the gun out her hand on the roof and stop her from killing Falcone so I can’t see how she’d think he’d ever agree to that. I think she either meant rob or it was just a joke.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I always interpreted it as kill, and wasn't too familiar with it being used in the other way. I suppose a hint of ambiguity in the language there makes it more noir, but I feel better now knowing that it can also mean rob. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[DeadlyWest]

I have a question to pose. Did Selina have an arc in The Batman? On first glance, it would seem so. It feels like some of Batman's "vengeance isn't the answer" arc was supposed to have been mirrored with her. She looks horrified when he's pounding that thug within an inch of his life.

But then she casually floats the idea of going on a murder spree with Batman at the end. Is she saying that in jest? Does she mean it? It's not exactly clear to me where her character is at by the end. I would totally understand if she wants to continue being a thief and doing what she needs to survive, and getting out of Gotham. That makes total sense. The idea of her being a murderous vigilante feels a bit at odds to me with what her character goes through in the movie. I feel like she comes to Batman's aid at the end because she recognizes that he helped save her from crossing a line maybe she wasn't really ready to cross. They save each other.

I get that it's a nod to the more villainous side of Selina/Catwoman and the classic conflicted relationship they have in the comics. I'm just not sure where it came from in this particular story. Maybe I'm placing too much weight on that line, but the line could've easily been "let's get into some trouble" or something vague. "Let's knock off some CEO-hedgefund types, it'll be fun!" is a totally different level though that to me casts her morally and philosophically as almost no different than The Riddler in this movie. I guess it's a bit of a cliffhanger to see what side of the line she'll end up on, but I'm wondering where she made that leap based on where she was at in the third act.

I'd say she does but not in the sense you're thinking

Selina's story in this is kinda like Batman's but she comes to a different conclusion. While Batman concludes that the city is a cesspool but it's worth fighting for and can be saved, she wants nothing to do with it. The movie just brings her to that conclusion, before she inevitably comes back to fuel her own ends.

 

[BatLobster]

I'd say she does but not in the sense you're thinking

Selina's story in this is kinda like Batman's but she comes to a different conclusion. While Batman concludes that the city is a cesspool but it's worth fighting for and can be saved, she wants nothing to do with it. The movie just brings her to that conclusion, before she inevitably comes back to fuel her own ends.

I see what you're saying there. The only thing for me is that I think she starts off pretty cynical (with good reason) and ends pretty cynical. I'm not sure any of her core beliefs fundamentally change. So I'm not sure if that's an arc, per se. Not that she has to have one, but just curious what people thought about that.

 

[shauner111]

I have a question to pose. Did Selina have an arc in The Batman? On first glance, it would seem so. It feels like some of Batman's "vengeance isn't the answer" arc was supposed to have been mirrored with her. She looks horrified when he's pounding that thug within an inch of his life.

But then she casually floats the idea of going on a murder spree with Batman at the end. Is she saying that in jest? Does she mean it? It's not exactly clear to me where her character is at by the end. I would totally understand if she wants to continue being a thief and doing what she needs to survive, and getting out of Gotham. That makes total sense. The idea of her being a murderous vigilante feels a bit at odds to me with what her character goes through in the movie. I feel like she comes to Batman's aid at the end because she recognizes that he helped save her from crossing a line maybe she wasn't really ready to cross. They save each other.

I get that it's a nod to the more villainous side of Selina/Catwoman and the classic conflicted relationship they have in the comics. I'm just not sure where it came from in this particular story. Maybe I'm placing too much weight on that line, but the line could've easily been "let's get into some trouble" or something vague. "Let's knock off some CEO-hedgefund types, it'll be fun!" is a totally different level though that to me casts her morally and philosophically as almost no different than The Riddler in this movie. I guess it's a bit of a cliffhanger to see what side of the line she'll end up on, but I'm wondering where she made that leap based on where she was at in the third act.

She meant steal from them and take them down in that way.

 

[shauner111]

I see what you're saying there. The only thing for me is that I think she starts off pretty cynical (with good reason) and ends pretty cynical. I'm not sure any of her core beliefs fundamentally change. So I'm not sure if that's an arc, per se. Not that she has to have one, but just curious what people thought about that.

She doesn’t have an arc, which is refreshing. Not everybody goes through a transformation all at once. Some folks don’t learn anything from their experience. Batman does in this case but most of the others don’t. Or I like the tragedy of a character gaining knowledge who then decides to go the negative route instead of the positive. And honestly, that’s Selina Kyle most of the time.

 

[shauner111]

Knock-off could mean kill or it could mean taking them down in a different way. Since it’s Selina saying the line to Batman, it’s gotta mean stealing, taking them down a peg, arresting, kicking their ass etc. She also has that kind of sense of humour so who knows with her. Either way, she’s learnt nothing from the experience and just wants more of it elsewhere...which tickles me lol. Like Fincher says “I love characters who don’t learn from their mistakes”. I hope Selina never changes in this trilogy and doesn’t come to any positive realization. She just keeps looking out for herself. I like my Selina to be selfish but with hints of compassion for the “small guy”. Only to never step outside of that. At her core she’s a thief, and she’ll do whatever it takes to survive. Murder, stealing, whatever. And that’s why I’m so happy Reeves never wants her and Bruce to be together in the end. Keep the flirting and the push and pull.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm an idiot and truly didn't think of the other meaning of "knock off", but that changes the whole thing for me. I like to think she used that to be a bit provocative to Bats. Almost a dare to stop her as much as an invitation to join her. Either way, she wants to "play".

I think it's interesting because honestly if this was a one and done appearance for Selina I think it ends in a place that sums up their classic dynamic pretty well. But if she's going to be a recurring character in a trilogy, I wonder what that journey is going to look like. In a way I feel like this trilogy is setup to be Batman and Catwoman's story as the main focal point.

 

[shauner111]

I'm an idiot and truly didn't think of the other meaning of "knock off", but that changes the whole thing for me. I like to think she used that to be a bit provocative to Bats. Almost a dare to stop her as much as an invitation to join her. Either way, she wants to "play".

I think it's interesting because honestly if this was a one and done appearance for Selina I think it ends in a place that sums up their classic dynamic pretty well. But if she's going to be a recurring character in a trilogy, I wonder what that journey is going to look like. In a way I feel like this trilogy is setup to be Batman and Catwoman's story as the main focal point.

”She wants to play” sums her up pretty well.

According to Reeves, when she returns, there will be more conflict between her and Batman. He said something along the lines of .. Batman won’t be happy about what side of the war she’s on.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I see what you're saying there. The only thing for me is that I think she starts off pretty cynical (with good reason) and ends pretty cynical. I'm not sure any of her core beliefs fundamentally change. So I'm not sure if that's an arc, per se. Not that she has to have one, but just curious what people thought about that.

I do consider she has a bit of an "arc" but it's not some grand declaration of what she will need to become like Batman's arc. It happens kinda fast and you have to relate it to how she has to process what's happened to her emotionally because of her father. They set up her resentment and the relationship (or lack thereof) with her father, the guy who allowed her to have a s**** childhood and never really cared for her. She hits a low point emotionally when she learns that he killed Annika, which drives her to seek revenge for her friend / lover. But it's clear she's also doing it for herself (only reason why she bothers with presenting herself as Maria Kyle's kid) and the years of neglect. What she realizes when Batman stops her from killing her father is that this kind of vengeance will just bring more suffering for her. And so she realizes that she has to let go. Once she sees Falcone lying dead on the floor outside the club, she's not angry anymore. She can move on and get past her personal baggage. Had she left Gotham at the start of the film she would still have unfinished business with her father, allowing that resentment to grow and poison her soul, because she would never have any resolution to the feelings she's had towards him all these years.

I understand that some people may not consider that a "real arc" but I think she does learn something and gets some release for her inner turmoil.

 

[WatchProtect]

Shes certainly an integral character to this film and the comics but I almost wouldn't mind not seeing her in another Reeves film, I'm sure she will be but I think she served this story perfectly and I really don't see a reason she'd need to go back to Gotham.

The obvious answer though is she becomes a thief for hire and someone hires her for a job there. Sionis, Hugo, maybe even Bruce himself

 

[shauner111]

I do consider she has a bit of an "arc" but it's not some grand declaration of what she will need to become like Batman's arc. It happens kinda fast and you have to relate it to how she has to process what's happened to her emotionally because of her father. They set up her resentment and the relationship (or lack thereof) with her father, the guy who allowed her to have a s**** childhood and never really cared for her. She hits a low point emotionally when she learns that he killed Annika, which drives her to seek revenge for her friend / lover. But it's clear she's also doing it for herself (only reason why she bothers with presenting herself as Maria Kyle's kid) and the years of neglect. What she realizes when Batman stops her from killing her father is that this kind of vengeance will just bring more suffering for her. And so she realizes that she has to let go. Once she sees Falcone lying dead on the floor outside the club, she's not angry anymore. She can move on and get past her personal baggage. Had she left Gotham at the start of the film she would still have unfinished business with her father, allowing that resentment to grow and poison her soul, because she would never have any resolution to the feelings she's had towards him all these years.

I understand that some people may not consider that a "real arc" but I think she does learn something and gets some release for her inner turmoil.

I didn’t really get the vibe that she stopped being angry and let go. I took it more like “yeaaah I’m not going to prison for this A-hole. Touche batboy” Lol.

 

[shauner111]

Shes certainly an integral character to this film and the comics but I almost wouldn't mind not seeing her in another Reeves film, I'm sure she will be but I think she served this story perfectly and I really don't see a reason she'd need to go back to Gotham.

The obvious answer though is she becomes a thief for hire and someone hires her for a job there. Sionis, Hugo, maybe even Bruce himself

Entitlement. I deserve this spot, not them. The east end is unprotected, let me change that. Yada yada.

While she’s settled back in, maybe somebody hires her to do a job. Thorne or Cobblepot could be a good target for her. Or Wayne?? *evil smirk*

 

[pixen]

She needs to be in the sequel(s). Especially if she doesn’t get her own spin off.

 

[Invader Joker]

I didn’t really get the vibe that she stopped being angry and let go. I took it more like “yeaaah I’m not going to prison for this A-hole. Touche batboy” Lol.

I did get that vibe, especially because it was obvious that in general she was not as comfortable with violence as she tried to claim she was in the rooftop scene. When she saw Savage get murdered she had a look of shock in her face that made it very clear she wasn't enjoying what she was watching, and then she was in absolute shock when she saw Batman beating up on the thug that tried to murder her in the end. Not to mention she was quite literally crying in the scene where Batman held her and stopped her from murdering Falcone which I think went a bit deeper than just her own sense of self-preservation. I think there's a lot of layers to her we get the glimpse of in the movie, and a lot of those layers are due to Kravitz performance and her choices in key scenes. You get the sense she's not even who she thinks she is and that all her bravado is more of a way to hide how hurt and vulnerable she feels inside and how she doesn't feel as home with violence as everybody else does but has to pretend to herself she does because of how the city is.



She didn't even seem satisfied at all when Falcone finally died, she just seemed empty inside.





The reason she ran away from the city in the end is probably because there's too much baggage there for her to feel comfortable in it. Her girlfriend died, her co-workers in the Iceberg Lounge probably died too because of the flood, Falcone died, and there's also the key fact that she fell in love with Batman and she probably doesn't feel prepared to that at all, even Matt hinted as much. But even then, in that final scene, I think it's kinda obvious she really really wanted Batman to tell her to stay but he didn't, she just looked so sad when she finally had to say goodbye to him. I even read the dialogue where she says the whole "let's rob rich people together" thing differently, she knew he wouldn't accept that but I think she was hoping for a counter-proposal.

 

[milesmvspeterp]

She needs to be in the sequel(s). Especially if she doesn’t get her own spin off.

Catwoman will get a spinoff and star in part 2 or both. This Catwoman is too big

 

[shauner111]

 

[Sawyer]

Goddammit, I had a dream that a Catwoman spin-off was announced and I was so disappointed upon waking up this morning.

 

[BobJM]

CATWOMAN

Months after the departing Gotham City, Selina Kyle is trying to start fresh. But a call for help from her friend Holly Robinson brings her back to the streets she once called home in Gotham’s East End.

Young women are being abducted into a trafficking ring by Roman Sionis / Black Mask, a former lover of Selina’s, who has his own motives to assume his father’s criminal empire. Mask’s operation is maintained through use of a hypnotic & hallucinogenic drops synthesized by Jervis Tetch / Mad Hatter. Mask’s number two, The Blonde, is an amalgamation of the character of the same name from Loeb’s When in Rome, as well as the character Philo Zeiss, and Bruno from Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns.

Dr. Leslie Thompkins runs a clinic in the East End, and confirms Holly’s reports of missing girls—Hatter’s captive ‘Alices.’ Ted Grant is Selina’s old friend & trainer at a derelict old gymnasium in Gotham. And Slam Bradley is Selina’s love interest, an ex-cop whose methods often place him at odds with the GCPD, represented in this district by Captain Sarah Essen (and Officer Renee Montoya).

As Selina dons her new Catwoman cowl, she transitions from cat burglar to antihero, continuing the hero journey she began in The Batman.


FULL CAST

Selina Kyle: Zoë Kravitz, 33

MAIN
Holly Robinson: Thomasin McKenzie, 22
Sam Bradley: Christopher Abbott, 36
Leslie Thompkins: Frances McDormand, 65
Ted Grant: Jeffrey Dean Morgan, 56

VILLAINS
Roman Sionis / Black Mask: Rami Malek, 41
Jervis Tetch / Mad Hatter: Jonah Hill, 38
The Blonde: Mason Alexander Park, 27
Sofia Falcone: Elisabeth Moss, 40
Alberto Falcone: Benny Safdie, 36

ADDITIONAL
Sister Maggie: Georgina Campbell, 30
Richard Sionis: F. Murray Abraham, 82
Capt. Sarah Essen: Hannah Waddingham, 47
Officer Renee Montoya: Monica Barbaro, 32

MINOR
Vicky Vale: Frankie Shaw, 35
Councilman Hill: Charles Parnell, 47


FULL CAST GALLERY

MAIN
Holly Robinson: Thomasin McKenzie, 22

Sam Bradley: Christopher Abbott, 36

Leslie Thompkins: Frances McDormand, 65

Ted Grant: Jeffrey Dean Morgan, 56

VILLAINS
Roman Sionis / Black Mask: Rami Malek, 41

Jervis Tetch / Mad Hatter: Jonah Hill, 38

The Blonde: Mason Alexander Park, 27

Sofia Falcone: Elisabeth Moss, 40

Alberto Falcone: Benny Safdie, 36

ADDITIONAL
Sister Maggie: Georgina Campbell, 30

Richard Sionis: F. Murray Abraham, 82

Capt. Sarah Essen: Hannah Waddingham, 47

Officer Renee Montoya: Monica Barbaro, 32

MINOR
Vicky Vale: Frankie Shaw, 35

Councilman Hill: Charles Parnell, 47

 

[HBarnill]

[Jodie Comer] wouldn't do it. She said she specifically doesn't like to wear tight outfits and act sexy.

It's odd to reply to a 3+ year old post but here I go:

It's a shame she wasn't cast. I thought Kravitz did a fine job but I still feel she's too short for the role. The ideal Catwoman should be 5'7" or taller. Killing Eve was the perfect auction tape for her. And as it turned out, this Selina Kyle wasn't dressed up like some dominatrix.

My only now is for the Joker team to make a spin off from that universe to cater to their version of Kyle.

 

[Invader Joker]

It's odd to reply to a 3+ year old post but here I go:

It's a shame she wasn't cast. I thought Kravitz did a fine job but I still feel she's too short for the role. The ideal Catwoman should be 5'7" or taller. Killing Eve was the perfect auction tape for her. And as it turned out, this Selina Kyle wasn't dressed up like some dominatrix.

My only now is for the Joker team to make a spin off from that universe to cater to their version of Kyle.

Why? It adds absolutely nothing to her character for her to be tall. In fact I think that being on the smaller side is better as an advantage for her since it allows her to sneak more easily into places like you know, a cat.
Also she may not have been a dominatrix but....
She still had scenes were she dressed on these types of clothes specifically to seduce and manipulate targets, which is specifically what Jodie said at the time she didn't want to do.
Plus it's pretty obvious Reeves wanted to play on the race angle. Jodie would've been a giant miscast for this version of the character.