The Flash ZOOM! (Possible season 2 spoilers)

[Silliminite]

The problem is that Wells knew Jay from the beginning and he would have known if he looked different.

Since the beginning? Was Wells familiar with Jay, before he became the Flash, and if so, when was this established?

 

[Dark Raven]

The problem is that Wells knew Jay from the beginning and he would have known if he looked different.

Well he wasn't there in the delivery room when he was born.

Wells may have only met someone who claimed to be the Flash and who called himself Jay Garrick. He might never have met the real Jay Garrick, who could look completely different.

 

[gdw]

Well he wasn't there in the delivery room when he was born.

Wells may have only met someone who claimed to be the Flash and who called himself Jay Garrick. He might never have met the real Jay Garrick, who could look completely different.

Except E2 Flash never has hid his face. Just that silly helmet.
Was he supposed to have had a SECRET identity?

 

[Dark Raven]

Except E2 Flash never has hid his face. Just that silly helmet.
Was he supposed to have had a SECRET identity?

That depends on if anyone ever saw him up close or if he was always speeding around and appeared as a blur. If the only time he did seem to stop long enough to be seen was when Wells thought he saw him, then that doesn't necessarily prove that Wells has seen the real Jay Garrick but only someone claiming to be him.

 

[DigificWriter]

This whole idea that the person we've come to know as Jay Garrick isn't really Jay Garrick just doesn't hold water. Not only is it contradicted by what we've been shown, it's also contradicted by something that Andrew Kreisberg said in direct email correspondence with TV Line (which is in itself contradictory to another set of comments - which don't in and of themselves correspond to what we've been shown - he has made in relation to this whole Zoom!Jay thing).

 

[Nathan]

I think that whole scenario is way too complicated. So Zoom is Hunter Zolomon. Alright. Jay Garrick, who we thought was the real Jay, is according to theories, also another Zolomon, just from another Earth. Both have been hiding the real Jay Garrick, and no one suspects anything, because they apparently never saw his face before.

Together they play cat and mouse, to avoid suspicion, with the end goal being, what again exactly? Also, if Jay is just another Zolomon, tasked by Zoom(Zolomon) to act as Jay Garrick, where did Zoom get his other self from?

 

[Justin]

I think it will end in an uncomplicated easily explainable and satisfying way. We're just missing pieces of the puzzle at the moment.

Is the Jay Garrick character one of twins? Is there another Jay from another Earth? Has Zoom time travelled? Is Zoom actually human? Who is the man in the mask?

Once they confirm one of the above or something similar then it will all make plenty of sense.

It's not meant to make sense yet. And probably won't until at least 2 episodes before the finale.

 

[Brian Braddock]

That depends on if anyone ever saw him up close or if he was always speeding around and appeared as a blur. If the only time he did seem to stop long enough to be seen was when Wells thought he saw him, then that doesn't necessarily prove that Wells has seen the real Jay Garrick but only someone claiming to be him.

If that was the case wouldn't either Wells or any of the bystanders have made a bit of a deal of the fact that it was the first time they were actually getting their 1st look at the Flash's face? There was none of that though; not even an aside remark.

 

[Silliminite]

Together they play cat and mouse, to avoid suspicion, with the end goal being, what again exactly? Also, if Jay is just another Zolomon, tasked by Zoom(Zolomon) to act as Jay Garrick, where did Zoom get his other self from?

What cat and mouse game are you referring to, and what other self are you talking about? Just to clarify my theory:

Zoom = E-2's Hunter Zolomon
Fake Jay Garrick = E-1's Hunter Zolomon (who Zoom now killed)
Man in the Iron Mask = E-2's Jay Garrick (The real Jay, whose face we haven't seen yet.....at least one we haven't seen this season. )

 

[Golgo-13]

I've said this since i saw the scene, but the person on the park bench that Caitlyn and Jay saw looked 'out of it' as though he (Zolomon) were in a trance, dragged or an illusion.

 

[Nathan]

What cat and mouse game are you referring to, and what other self are you talking about? Just to clarify my theory:

Zoom = E-2's Hunter Zolomon
Fake Jay Garrick = E-1's Hunter Zolomon (who Zoom now killed)
Man in the Iron Mask = E-2's Jay Garrick (The real Jay, whose face we haven't seen yet.....at least one we haven't seen this season. )

So, how and when did Zoom get Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon? Obviously it must have happened way before the dimensional breach was a thing. So is Zoom able to travel between worlds on his own? And if so, why didn't he decide to go after the Flash of Earth-1, before the breach?

 

[Silliminite]

So, how and when did Zoom get Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon? Obviously it must have happened way before the dimensional breach was a thing. So is Zoom able to travel between worlds on his own? And if so, why didn't he decide to go after the Flash of Earth-1, before the breach?

Again, I'm not understanding what you mean by "get E-1 Hunter". Get him to do what?

 

[DigificWriter]

Earth-2's Harrison Wells recognized the person we know as Jay Garrick, so the only way your scenario of said person being Earth-1's Hunter Zolomon works is if he was plucked from Earth-1 at least 2 years ago (long before the breaches appeared) and somehow 'traipsed' out there as Jay Garrick, the Flash of Earth-2, whilst his E2 counterpart (Zoom) was terrorizing people, fighting 'himself', and holding the "real" E2 Jay Garrick captive.

It makes absolutely no sense and is completely contradictory to what we've been shown in addition to relying on a massive amount of contrivances.

 

[Nathan]

Again, I'm not understanding what you mean by "get E-1 Hunter". Get him to do what?

I think I'm getting crazy here. Get him to play "fake" Jay obviously. You say that the Jay Garrick we've come to know, has been Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon all along. So at which point, did Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon, put him up to the task to impersonate Jay Garrick? At least 2 month before the breach, Jay Garrick confronted Harrison Wells on Earth-2. So if Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon is Zoom, and has been fighting Earth-2 Jay Garrick for roughly 2 years, and the breach to Earth-1 hasn't happened yet, how come in your scenario, "fake" Jay, Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, is already on Earth-2?

 

[Silliminite]

Earth-2's Harrison Wells recognized the person we know as Jay Garrick, so the only way your scenario of said person being Earth-1's Hunter Zolomon works is if this so-called "fake" Jay was plucked from Earth-1 at least 2 years ago (long before the breaches appeared) and somehow 'traipsed' out there as the Flash of Earth-2 whilst the "real" Jay Garrick (Zoom) was terrorizing people and 'fighting' himself.

It makes absolutely no sense and is completely contradictory to what we've been shown in addition to relying on a massive amount of contrivances.

You're assuming that Jay Garrick's identity was known to Wells since the very start of his career as the Flash. We don't know exactly when that Press Conference occurred. For over a year (or around that time), the real Jay could've battled Zoom, without anyone knowing the Flash's identity. Zoom then learns of an ideal chance to reveal to Wells the "identity" of the Flash, so captures Garrick, and puts him in the Iron Mask. Zolomon/Zoom then dons Garrick's suit and appears in front of Wells.

When the breaches are opened, all Zoom has to do is travel to E-1, find his doppelganger, and put him up to the task of infiltrating team Flash as "Jay Garrick". Convenient, since Zoom remembers that Wells thinks Zolomon's face is what Garrick looks like. All subsequent flashbacks involving Garrick have been from E-1 Hunter's point of view (which are of course lies supplied by Zoom), except the Press Conference flashback which was from Wells' POV.

 

[Silliminite]

I think I'm getting crazy here. Get him to play "fake" Jay obviously. You say that the Jay Garrick we've come to know, has been Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon all along. So at which point, did Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon, put him up to the task to impersonate Jay Garrick? At least 2 month before the breach, Jay Garrick confronted Harrison Wells on Earth-2. So if Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon is Zoom, and has been fighting Earth-2 Jay Garrick for roughly 2 years, and the breach to Earth-1 hasn't happened yet, how come in your scenario, "fake" Jay, Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, is already on Earth-2?

You're not going crazy, I just had difficulty understanding your question. Thanks, I understand now, and hope that my response to Digific has answered it.

 

[ernesth100]

I think there are 20 Jays, and they've even sort of named a drink after him:

Next time On Jay Garrick: The Series.

My name is Jay Garrick, when I was young Jay Garrick murdered my Jay Garrick. Until I struck by Jay Garrick giving me Jay Garrick. Now I use that Jay Garrick to Jay Garrick. I am Jay Garrick.

*Choir* GARRICK

 

[Nathan]

Then that means Zoom is able to somehow change up his speed force energy. Because the blue lightning is a dead giveaway. Which he didn't have, when he supposedly impersonated Jay. Plus, "fake" Jay, has battle scars at the exact place where Zoom injured him, when he shoved his claws into his chest. So at least his story of battling Zoom has to check out.

 

[inkblaster]

I'm wondering if it's as simple as Hunter Zolomon/Zoom, like in the comics, his power isn't speed but actually time manipulation.

This would explain Barry can't come close to matching him in speed, how he can catch lightning in mid air and throw it back, and he wants the speedsters speed as manipulating time takes it's toll. If he's stopping time relative to himself he's aging prematurely, but if he gets a real speedsters speed he doesn't need to stop time.

So if he came from the future, having a dead Jay Garrick 'complicates things'. The man in the Iron Mask may just be him from an earlier time, and he's keeping him locked up for safe keeping.

 

[Silliminite]

Then that means Zoom is able to somehow change up his speed force energy. Because the blue lightning is a dead giveaway. Which he didn't have, when he supposedly impersonated Jay.

I've thought about this before, and it has absolutely stumped me. Your suggestion that Zoom is somehow able to change up his speed force energy is the first viable explanation that I've heard.

Plus, "fake" Jay, has battle scars at the exact place where Zoom injured him, when he shoved his claws into his chest. So at least his story of battling Zoom has to check out.

Well, so Zoom shoved his claw up his doppelganger's chest to give him some physical "evidence" he could show to team Flash...

 

[DigificWriter]

You're assuming that Jay Garrick's identity was known to Wells since the very start of his career as the Flash. We don't know exactly when that Press Conference occurred. For over a year (or around that time), the real Jay could've battled Zoom, without anyone knowing the Flash's identity. Zoom then learns of an ideal chance to reveal to Wells the "identity" of the Flash, so captures Garrick, and puts him in the Iron Mask. Zolomon/Zoom then dons Garrick's suit and appears in front of Wells.

When the breaches are opened, all Zoom has to do is travel to E-1, find his doppelganger, and put him up to the task of infiltrating team Flash as "Jay Garrick". Convenient, since Zoom remembers that Wells thinks Zolomon's face is what Garrick looks like. All subsequent flashbacks involving Garrick have been from E-1 Hunter's point of view (which are of course lies supplied by Zoom), except the Press Conference flashback which was from Wells' POV.

Both Zoom and The Flash showed up on Earth-2 around the same time (shortly after the Particle Accelerator exploded).

When The Flash shows up at that press conference and Wells identifies him by name - Jay Garrick - nobody reacts with any surprise whatsoever. The only thing that happens is people start pulling out cell phones to document the confrontation.

What this therefore tells us is that The Flash's identity is public knowledge on Earth-2, which in and of itself thoroughly torpedoes your scenario.

 

[Dark Raven]

Earth-2's Harrison Wells recognized the person we know as Jay Garrick, so the only way your scenario of said person being Earth-1's Hunter Zolomon works is if he was plucked from Earth-1 at least 2 years ago (long before the breaches appeared) and somehow 'traipsed' out there as Jay Garrick, the Flash of Earth-2, whilst his E2 counterpart (Zoom) was terrorizing people, fighting 'himself', and holding the "real" E2 Jay Garrick captive.

It makes absolutely no sense and is completely contradictory to what we've been shown in addition to relying on a massive amount of contrivances.

That's not the only way it can work. Suppose there were no breaches at all. Then there is no E1 Zolomon in play. Only E2 people. So Jay Garrick becomes the Flash 2 years ago, but no-one has ever seen him, because he is always moving at speed. But then he's captured, and the speedster who showed up at Well's press conference is E2 Zolomon, ie Zoom, who does have speed.

Wells only ever sees E2 Zolomon and believes this to be E2 Garrick. But he has no way to verify.

And E2 Zolomon can go on being Zoom, while showing up every now and then as Jay Garrick, while Jay is actually captured somewhere.

And remember, there's no E1 in this scenario yet.

Now when Barry opens the breaches, only then do E1 counterparts come into play. And E2 Zolomon takes advantage of this and uses E1 Zolomon as part of his plan. But this is only some significant time after E2 Zolomon has already claimed to be Garrick, and the people of E2 have bought into this.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Unless every single encounter that Zoom and The Flash had over the course of 2 years (since Zoom encounters are pretty much commonplace, at least according to the information we get from "Welcome to Earth-2") and every encounter between The Flash and every other Metahuman that has ever menaced Central City during that same time period happened completely 'at speed', your scenario doesn't work either.

 

[Nathan]

There are too many little things, that make the scenario unlikely. Let's say Jay is in fact Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, just a normal person, who probably got promised to get speed powers on his own if he works for Zoom. So for someone who was never a speedster, he sure was a quick learner once he took Velocity-6. Because he immediately understood the concept of phasing and removed the bullet from Well's chest. Or when he took Velocity-7, and quickly pulled off, what I assume is a trademark of the real Jay Garrick, using his helmet to do some sort of shock wave punches. So he very much had speedster experience, but supposedly he's Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, who's just a regular person, working together with Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon.

 

[Silliminite]

Both Zoom and The Flash showed up on Earth-2 around the same time (shortly after the Particle Accelerator exploded).

Agreed.

When The Flash shows up at that press conference and Wells identifies him by name - Jay Garrick - nobody reacts with any surprise whatsoever.

Why should they? Is Jay Garrick a celebrity on E-2?

The only thing that happens is people start pulling out cell phones to document the confrontation.

Such out of character behaviour by people. Almost as if such a thing doesn't happen very often or perhaps has never happened before.

What this therefore tells us me is that The Flash's identity is public knowledge on Earth-2

FTFY.

which in and of itself thoroughly torpedoes your scenario.

Jeez, aren't you a delight.