The Dark Knight Rises 8 years of no Batman or Bruce Wayne, and NO ONE could pick up the trend?

[DACrowe]

This question has been answered immediately, but I just love this thread. I feel like many of the "plotholes" and complaints have are from those not paying attention. Bruce was a recluse for three years, not eight.

 

[milost]

Three years is a long time of doing absolutely nothing (other than archery of cawse). It certainly was enough time for people to make up urban legends about him . . . like Batman.

I doubt he did anything important in the other 5 considering the plot doesn't tell us he accomplished anything noteworthy. How do we know he was still Playboy Bruce? We don't. All we know is he tried to pull a Tony Stark (which is odd considering clean energy was never of interest to Wayne Enterprises or Bruce Wayne in general) and failed miserably.

OP makes a good point, misunderstanding of the whacked out time frame or not. It's not just the time frame that should tip people off, it's how close Bruce Wayne and Batman come back into the world. The same issue happened in Batman Begins. The guy is gone for 7 years, comes back and makes the papers. People thought he had been dead for years (just like people in TDKR thought he was pissing in jars or horribly scarred), he comes back, then this Batman fellow shows up. Then again, I still fail to realize how ordering a batch order of 10,000 cowls and 10,000 pairs of cowl ears avoids suspicion. How is ordering one or two more suspicious than ordering a frivolous amount. Bruce Wayne ordered 10,000 cowls and ears after he's been dead for 7 years? This Batman guy who's clearly dressed up in costume shows up? WHAT!?!

Not very subtle. The only smart one in the city was Coleman Reese. I guess I should include John Blake in there, but he never deducted it from any of the information discussed in this thread. He deduced the secret from . . . a feeling of anger in his bones, facades and DEM BONES.

The dumbest one was Selina Kyle, who interacted with Bruce the hermit, Bruce the grinning billionaire, and Bruce the Batman and never put three and three together until Bane called him mister Wayne. This was even after Bruce actually pulled the old "Batman's my bro and a mutual friend" speech! I couldn't believe Nolan and Co. played that card. It was straight from the Mask with Jim Carrey.

 

[shauner111]

It's a movie, who cares, you suspend disbelief for certain things. It's always been the case with Batman. You suspend disbeilief that nobody can ever figure out who he was. In the comcis/animation he starts in his 20s and then he's 80 years old and STILL ppl can't figure it out? It's beyond silly but it doesnt matter.

It's even like that in the comics between Selina and Bruce. You're just desperately trying to hate this trilogy, especially the final piece.

 

[DACrowe]

Three years is a long time of doing absolutely nothing (other than archery of cawse). It certainly was enough time for people to make up urban legends about him . . . like Batman.

I doubt he did anything important in the other 5 considering the plot doesn't tell us he accomplished anything noteworthy. How do we know he was still Playboy Bruce? We don't. All we know is he tried to pull a Tony Stark (which is odd considering clean energy was never of interest to Wayne Enterprises or Bruce Wayne in general) and failed miserably.

OP makes a good point, misunderstanding of the whacked out time frame or not. It's not just the time frame that should tip people off, it's how close Bruce Wayne and Batman come back into the world. The same issue happened in Batman Begins. The guy is gone for 7 years, comes back and makes the papers. People thought he had been dead for years (just like people in TDKR thought he was pissing in jars or horribly scarred), he comes back, then this Batman fellow shows up. Then again, I still fail to realize how ordering a batch order of 10,000 cowls and 10,000 pairs of cowl ears avoids suspicion. How is ordering one or two more suspicious than ordering a frivolous amount. Bruce Wayne ordered 10,000 cowls and ears after he's been dead for 7 years? This Batman guy who's clearly dressed up in costume shows up? WHAT!?!

Not very subtle. The only smart one in the city was Coleman Reese. I guess I should include John Blake in there, but he never deducted it from any of the information discussed in this thread. He deduced the secret from . . . a feeling of anger in his bones, facades and DEM BONES.

The dumbest one was Selina Kyle, who interacted with Bruce the hermit, Bruce the grinning billionaire, and Bruce the Batman and never put three and three together until Bane called him mister Wayne. This was even after Bruce actually pulled the old "Batman's my bro and a mutual friend" speech! I couldn't believe Nolan and Co. played that card. It was straight from the Mask with Jim Carrey.

Yep, one could say the same for the comics. The fact that Bruce Wayne is considered the Prince of Gotham, but is usually depicted since the '90s as a very civic minded and considerate patron for the well being of the city (i.e. not a playboy) and happened to return to Gotham after a mysterious 7-10 year absence abroad the exact same year that Batman appeared....and everytime he takes in a male ward, there is a new Robin around....and the fact that only so many people can afford flying space-jets, military-level cars and motorcycles, and all the other gadgets he has lying around, but probably few (if any) watched their parents gunned down as a child...

It should be painfully obvious he's Batman. Grant Morrison's much lauded "Batman Inc." makes that even more glaring when Bruce Wayne openly admits that he is funding Batman and is good pals with him. To quote Tony Stark in the first Iron Man movie, "A bodyguard?! Do you really think anyone's going to believe this?"

As for what Bruce did in the interim years. I like to imagine he became a more shadowy, covert Batman for at least the first few years, but that is just wishful thinking on my part. It is clear though that Bruce Wayne did drop the playboy routine and became more of a proactive member of Wayne Enterprises. It is why the board members (at least the one from BB and the one played by Sen. Leahy) show him more respect, as he was taking his father's mantle...and drove it into the ground as Daggett gleefully points out. It is also how he could divert half of WE's R&D into an energy project that he then "mothballs."

One could even argue that trying to solve the energy and climate change crisis is a more noble pursuit than punching poor people for jollies at night. Just saying.

 

[milost]

As for what Bruce did in the interim years. I like to imagine he became a more shadowy, covert Batman for at least the first few years, but that is just wishful thinking on my part. It is clear though that Bruce Wayne did drop the playboy routine and became more of a proactive member of Wayne Enterprises. It is why the board members (at least the one from BB and the one played by Sen. Leahy) show him more respect, as he was taking his father's mantle...and drove it into the ground as Daggett gleefully points out. It is also how he could divert half of WE's R&D into an energy project that he then "mothballs."

Man, I wish we could have seen this stuff. That would have been great.

One could even argue that trying to solve the energy and climate change crisis is a more noble pursuit than punching poor people for jollies at night. Just saying.

True, but which one do we pay to see in a BATMAN movie?

You're right though. Even though the clean energy orb itself is silly, it IS a nice little philanthropic goal for Wayne. It's just too bad it's something that had to conveniently be turned into a damn LoS weapon. I think I'd be easier on it if it wasn't explained in exposition (with freaking Talia no less) but rather, shown to us.

It's a movie, who cares, you suspend disbelief for certain things. It's always been the case with Batman. You suspend disbeilief that nobody can ever figure out who he was. In the comcis/animation he starts in his 20s and then he's 80 years old and STILL ppl can't figure it out? It's beyond silly but it doesnt matter.

It's even like that in the comics between Selina and Bruce. You're just desperately trying to hate this trilogy, especially the final piece.

"Desperately trying to hate this trilogy". Riiiiight. Let's get dramatic about it.

Only Rises here buddy. I suspended my disbelief in Begins, I just made sure I'd bring up the "issue" from Begins so I wouldn't be accused of purposely overlooking issues in Begins and Dark Knight in favor of condemning TDKR.

Begins is great and I LOVE The Dark Knight. It's much easier to tear down something you don't like than it is to critique something you enjoy. Joker rigging buildings > Bane getting motorcycles inside a the market district every day of the week.

 

[shauner111]

Man, I wish we could have seen this stuff. That would have been great.

Whatever happened to imagination these days? Geez. People complain when Nolan explains everything but then when he doesn't people lose their minds. Never happy.

True, but which one do we pay to see in a BATMAN movie?

I personally pay to see a story, not specifically Batman.

You're right though. Even though the clean energy orb itself is silly, it IS a nice little philanthropic goal for Wayne. It's just too bad it's something that had to conveniently be turned into a damn LoS weapon. I think I'd be easier on it if it wasn't explained in exposition (with freaking Talia no less) but rather, shown to us.

Fair enough.

"Desperately trying to hate this trilogy". Riiiiight. Let's get dramatic about it.

Riiight. Your recent posts are the epitome of dramatic bud.

Only Rises here buddy. I suspended my disbelief in Begins, I just made sure I'd bring up the "issue" from Begins so I wouldn't be accused of purposely overlooking issues in Begins and Dark Knight in favor of condemning TDKR.

Begins is great and I LOVE The Dark Knight. It's much easier to tear down something you don't like than it is to critique something you enjoy. Joker rigging buildings > Bane getting motorcycles inside a the market district every day of the week.

Keep on reaching!!

 

[milost]

Whatever happened to imagination these days? Geez. People complain when Nolan explains everything but then when he doesn't people lose their minds. Never happy.

Like I've said in the past, TDKR would have made for a better book. Wouldn't have to worry about screen time or IMAX limitations there. And hey, Bane's voice would make everyone happy!

 

[shauner111]

Not me! I adore his voice!

But that's an interesting point. I do agree that it should have been stretched out longer, or made into 2 parter, or even a book. They would have been able to do more things with the scenes and fleshed it out. I have zero problem with the 8 year gap or anything about this movie but it would have been cool to see some sort of montage (this works if it was a 2 parter) where Batman is in the shadows taking down criminals or battling rogues after TDK.

 

[milost]

Not me! I adore his voice!

But that's an interesting point. I do agree that it should have been stretched out longer, or made into 2 parter, or even a book. They would have been able to do more things with the scenes and fleshed it out. I have zero problem with the 8 year gap or anything about this movie but it would have been cool to see some sort of montage (this works if it was a 2 parter) where Batman is in the shadows taking down criminals or battling rogues after TDK.

Agree with all that. A first film where he's Batman fighting in the shadows but then is shown having to put away the cape and cowl, PLUS what he was doing as Bruce in the eyes of the public before locking himself in Wayne Manor as the first half (with a montage) would have been great. End it with the **** hitting the fan ((Bruce being thrown into the prison, an actual class war, a revolution etc.) Then have a second parter that focuses on the war. That way they could spend more time rounding out EVERYTHING instead of just throwing the idea up on screen and going onto the next issue. Then I might actually care about Blake or Selina or Foley out on the streets in his dress blues. They could even have the time to build Miranda Tate up as a genuine love interest/ally.

But alas, it can never be.

And Shauner, I know when you see me post you probably feel like this,

But I swear to you, I mean no harm. Just a varying view is all.

 

[BatLobster]

milost- if Nolan is "meh" on TDKR in 10 years, that wouldn't change my opinion whatsoever. It is a HUGE pet peeve of mine when people take the creator's own opinion as gospel. For instance there are songs and albums by bands that I love that the band claims to now hate. Don't care. Just because they created it doesn't make their opinion infallible.

I'm sure Nolan has things he wishes he could change about all three movies in hindsight, it's only natural. But I'm also quite confident that he's pretty damn proud of all three of his babies. The trilogy will be a huge part of his legacy, no way around it. He spent 10 years of his life on it and it really helped shape his career and launch it into the stratosphere. Also, TDKR is the most ambitious film he's ever made in terms of scale and it'll be tough to top in that regard.

 

[shauner111]

Agree with all that. A first film where he's Batman fighting in the shadows but then is shown having to put away the cape and cowl, PLUS what he was doing as Bruce in the eyes of the public before locking himself in Wayne Manor as the first half (with a montage) would have been great. End it with the **** hitting the fan ((Bruce being thrown into the prison, an actual class war, a revolution etc.) Then have a second parter that focuses on the war. That way they could spend more time rounding out EVERYTHING instead of just throwing the idea up on screen and going onto the next issue. Then I might actually care about Blake or Selina or Foley out on the streets in his dress blues. They could even have the time to build Miranda Tate up as a genuine love interest/ally.

But alas, it can never be.

And Shauner, I know when you see me post you probably feel like this,

But I swear to you, I mean no harm. Just a varying view is all.

Haha, i dont hate anybody dude. Ive been through worse discussions. Im fine with this back and forth, it's all good.

Ill bite though..

I really do like the idea of a 2 parter nowadays. I think this concept could have been a benefit to the studio (2 billion in just 6 months instead of 1) as well as the fans (this would fix what they call "plot holes").

-The Dark Knight Rises: Part 1: Late June 2012 (running time under 2 hours)
-The Dark Knight Rises: The Legend Ends: Late December 2012 (running time under 2 hours)

First film opens with the prologue we have right into Harvey Dent day at wayne Manor where we first see Gordon/Selina/Bruce in hiding. This film ends with the first fight when Bane walks away and drops the broken cowl. Screen goes to black. To be continued. They release the sequel 6 months later so the wait isn't too long.

Second film opens with Bruce being dragged (slightly longer scene) towards the top of the pit, he's lowered into the well and it moves slower. As he lowers he's getting these flashes and so are we. It's a classic re-cap of the main beats of the fight but it's done so we feel that Bruce is thinking of it as he descends. It's cut with the Begins flashback of bruce when he's at the bottom of the well as hundreds of bats swarm him. Cut with Bane ripping the mask off him until he crashes on the ground, passing out.

A slight re-order of the next few scenes now. We see that shot of Blake in front of Wayne Manor before he checks if he's home, sees Selina leaving, follows her and the whole airport sequence happens. He has the sit down with her but instead of transitioning into Bruce being dragged off then lowered in the well (that scene will have happened)...the transition just cuts to Bruce waking up startled. He sees Bane hovering over him until he delivers his speech in the cell. Etc.

The movie ends with the actual ending intact. The big chase, bomb stuff, big ending. Everything is left as is except i would have changed the "takes" of Foley & Talia's deaths. Foley being run down viciously by the tumbler. Also would have included Catwoman riding the bat-pod down the stairs but im not sure if that shot made it since it killed that Imax camera lol.

It's all about what's in between these "intros and outros" that you can add things to. Having an hour and a half or hour & 45 minutes for each film? That makes it more concise.

Scenes that were in the script and shot, but edited due to Imax restrictions? Miranda/Fox sit down scene before Fox meets Bruce (Part 1). Bane's prototype mask as he trains (Part 2). Extended Bruce & Alfred argument scene (Part 1). Extended scenes when Lucius shows Bruce the Bat, he tells him about a device for his leg which goes into the scene where he puts it on with Alfred and leads to Alfred telling him about Bane while Bruce opens his suit. This would be extended too since i liked the script where he shows his intelligence more with the brace and his talk with Alfred reveals that bruce tried using his wealth and name to save the city in the 8 years but failed so now he feels compelled to go out as Batman. (part 1). The great trailer shots of him walking out the prison door (part 2) and walking into the ballroom (part 1) would be left in too.

You would have more scenes in the second part where citizens would be tearing each other apart and reacting to the news. Some Selina backstory with Jen in the first part. Showing 1 scene of their sisterly bond. I think we could have seen some more training from Wayne in the prison doing some unorthodox styles of getting back in shape. Maybe a nightmare sequence featuring the Joker's laughing, something creepy that makes him doubt himself. Bruce is shown getting back into Gotham, making his way to Wayne Manor and prepping for what's to come.

For the first movie id also include a cool flashback scene with that sad score of the first film where he's thinking of his dad. But this time he's packing up his robe (with Thomas' initials on it) and it triggers a memory. Id bring back Thomas/Martha for this scene where Thomas is wearing that robe. Just little things like this, would help make the 2 parts feel very complete.

They could have released both blu rays as is, then around this time in 2013, release the trilogy set as they did. Except the 3rd installement called The Dark Knight Rises, with the 2 parts edited together as one 3 hour + film. If LOTR can do it, so could this.

There! That better!? Hehe

 

[TheFuture]

I just saw it as people not being capable of believing that Bruce Wayne, the billionaire idiotic fratboy to the public, would have either the nerve or inclination to be Batman.

It's the same reason why Gordon could never put 2 and 2 together, and who sounded truly astounded when he realised Bruce was Batman. It just didn't compute with him, and that's a police commissioner, not your average Joe.

 

[The Joker]

Gordon said he never cared who Batman was, so he probably never even tried to figure it out.

 

[TheFuture]

Still sounded like the last person he would have suspected though once he had the realisation.

 

[milost]

I think in the Dark Knight Gordon has an inclination that Bruce the playboy was a facade (or that he was indeed Batman). His first thought was that he was trying to protect the armored car, which he was. There's also that subtle, patronizing way he goes about calling Bruce out for not watching a lot of news when everyone in the city knows that the hospitals are in danger. Almost a *wink* *wink* moment.

By TDKR though, they completely throw that idea out the window and abandon it. Gordon literally has NO idea and is genuinely surprised when Batman reveals himself. We even see his face, "whaaa Bruce Wayne? DERRRP". That's another problem I have with TDKR. The character of Gordon completely devolves from what we've seen in the beginning into this chuckle headed, incompetent shell of a man. He was with Batman at the characters conception back when he was just wearing a survival suit and a skimask with a paperclip gun. Being a great cop/Detective/Lt. Commissioner, I don't care what he would like to think, he'd have atleast some awareness of who he was by his nature alone. That ambiguity in Gordon and Batman's relationship is great, but to say, "oh, Gordon doesn't know or care" is a huge cop out. It makes him look stupid and completely oblivious.

He didn't put two and two together when this "nut" was so eager to push an "assistant DA brave enough to prosecute . . . Rachel Dawes"? Or Bruce Wayne and Batman's persistent admiration of Dent after he's convinced at the restruant? Or how clearly affected Batman was at the mere mention of Rachel in the interrogation scene? Or Batman CHOOSING "Rachel" (not Ms. Dawes like the script) over Dent? Or the day that everyone is looking to kill a Wayne Enterprises employee who knows who Batman is (Gordon acknowledges this with a snide remark about "Batman saving" Coleman Reese), then minutes later, Bruce Wayne saves the day by purposely getting into an accident and smashing his lambo?

C'mon. You don't have Gordon say, "I never knew and I don't care". Atleast have him smile at the end of their last exchange instead of, "B-B-Bruce Wayne??". No duh dip ****. He's just as dumb as Selina.

I'll give credit where credit is due. As much as I don't like Blake as a character, he is the smartest character in the movie. It's ironic because he's the least established AND has the least involvement with Batman/Bruce Wayne prior to the plot that unfolds in the movie.

 

[BatLobster]

Why do people act like Oldman gave a dumbfounded delivery of that line? That's not how it was at all. It only sounds like that once you put it through your "everything about TDKR is stoopid" filter in your head.

It was a much more solemn delivery. There was no stutter, there was no raise in pitch, there wasn't even necessarily a question mark at the end of the line. It could be taken a number of ways, including "so it was Bruce Wayne after all".

 

[shauner111]

I think in the Dark Knight Gordon has an inclination that Bruce the playboy was a facade (or that he was indeed Batman). His first thought was that he was trying to protect the armored car, which he was. There's also that subtle, patronizing way he goes about calling Bruce out for not watching a lot of news when everyone in the city knows that the hospitals are in danger. Almost a *wink* *wink* moment.

By TDKR though, they completely throw that idea out the window and abandon it. Gordon literally has NO idea and is genuinely surprised when Batman reveals himself. We even see his face, "whaaa Bruce Wayne? DERRRP". That's another problem I have with TDKR. The character of Gordon completely devolves from what we've seen in the beginning into this chuckle headed, incompetent shell of a man. He was with Batman at the characters conception back when he was just wearing a survival suit and a skimask with a paperclip gun. Being a great cop/Detective/Lt. Commissioner, I don't care what he would like to think, he'd have atleast some awareness of who he was by his nature alone. That ambiguity in Gordon and Batman's relationship is great, but to say, "oh, Gordon doesn't know or care" is a huge cop out. It makes him look stupid and completely oblivious.

He didn't put two and two together when this "nut" was so eager to push an "assistant DA brave enough to prosecute . . . Rachel Dawes"? Or Bruce Wayne and Batman's persistent admiration of Dent after he's convinced at the restruant? Or how clearly affected Batman was at the mere mention of Rachel in the interrogation scene? Or Batman CHOOSING "Rachel" (not Ms. Dawes like the script) over Dent? Or the day that everyone is looking to kill a Wayne Enterprises employee who knows who Batman is (Gordon acknowledges this with a snide remark about "Batman saving" Coleman Reese), then minutes later, Bruce Wayne saves the day by purposely getting into an accident and smashing his lambo?

C'mon. You don't have Gordon say, "I never knew and I don't care". Atleast have him smile at the end of their last exchange instead of, "B-B-Bruce Wayne??". No duh dip ****. He's just as dumb as Selina.

I'll give credit where credit is due. As much as I don't like Blake as a character, he is the smartest character in the movie. It's ironic because he's the least established AND has the least involvement with Batman/Bruce Wayne prior to the plot that unfolds in the movie.

That's only your interpretation. More people would say that he didnt know anything in that car crash scene. And Gordons answer in TDKR could be taken in any way.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

This question has been answered immediately, but I just love this thread. I feel like many of the "plotholes" and complaints have are from those not paying attention. Bruce was a recluse for three years, not eight.

first of all, that was just one plothole, what are the "many" from people not paying attention?

secondly, after looking at that scene again, I have no reason to believe that him being "so wounded that he goes into hiding" was talking about the night dent died. all the stuff about clean energy could have been happening while bruce was still sulking in his palace. he didn't have to be out in public to be a part of it.

thirdly, I am not hating on this movie - it is a good movie, I don't think this was a bad batflick, but it is just seriously flawed, so flawed that I do not think the trilogy concluded satisfactorily. however, the dark knight is still a masterpiece.

 

[shauner111]

Most of the "plotholes" are not actual plotholes. They dont seem to know the definition sometimes.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Most of the "plotholes" are not actual plotholes. They dont seem to know the definition sometimes.

inconsistencies, etc. whatever you want to call it. like bruce going from the lazarus pit to gotham without being scene and with no money.

 

[shauner111]

That's not a plothole but yes, can be said as inconsistent.

I like how you call it the lazarus pit. It's pretty much Nolan's take on it.

But as for getting back to Gotham...

It's more inconsistent that they didnt show it because it still makes sense if you use your imagination. Why? He's Bruce Wayne (he has connections even when he doesnt have money on him. He has connections to either pick him up or pay his way). Even without that, he's the goddamn Batman. Meaning he's a ninja. He's survived worse during his travels pre-Batman. He's climbed mountains, walked the ice, survived on ships without any money for years probably. He was homeless for quite sometime in his 20s. And he's disguised himself as well.

So that's not a plothole and barely an inconsistency. It's rather something that we wished was shown to us instead of using our imagination.

 

[Tequilla]

XtremelyBaneful

"You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

Miranda is talking about Bruce Wayne spending on...Batman ? To save the world ? Not the clean energy project ? Not the investment she also made ? The same investment that Lucius tells him made Wayne Enterprises loose lots of money ?

What ?

I agree with you that Bruce and Batman is sorta a ridiculous secret. After a while everyone would pick up clues. But the premise for your theory clashes with the text of the film. It's factually wrong.


Lucius

See, if you funnel the entire R and D budget for five years into a fusion project that you then mothball, your company is unlikely to thrive.

The timeline is very clear

 

[shauner111]

Exactly. He only went into hiding from the public once his plan failed, after spending loads of money on it. Things he probably had to deal with in the public. It's very clear that he was out as the billionaire for those 5 years.

The "five years" line, i believe, was not in the film. But im sure you got that from the script Tequilla.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

XtremelyBaneful

"You have a practiced apathy, Mr. Wayne. But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it. And isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

Miranda is talking about Bruce Wayne spending on...Batman ? To save the world ? Not the clean energy project ? Not the investment she also made ? The same investment that Lucius tells him made Wayne Enterprises loose lots of money ?

What ?

I agree with you that Bruce and Batman is sorta a ridiculous secret. After a while everyone would pick up clues. But the premise for your theory clashes with the text of the film. It's factually wrong.


Lucius The timeline is very clear

i'm sorry but I still see that as talia being subtle with the fact that she knows he's batman. she knows gotham city is his world and how desperately he wanted to salvage it and that 2face put a hiccup in that idea.

and i'm not even saying that bruce and batman was a ridiculous secret, I just thought it was silly how one returned after the other in this movie and no one picked it up.

regardless though, it's interesting this thread has picked up 5 pages but that's partially due to the fact that it just became a thread culminating of complaints about the film which I could have foreseen happening

i said it once and I'll say it again. this is a good movie, but it is seriously flawed, is all.

 

[shauner111]

She's hinting at his actions as Batman, but she's talking about what he literally did with the energy project, to his face.