A question for Atheists

[jaguarr]

Well...they are national holidays...are they not?

Bingo! Tell you what. As soon as it's no longer a national holiday and the stores aren't crammed with Christmas tree decorations, lights, Christmas sales, easter egg coloring kits, Easter & Christmas candy, visages of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all the other commercial trappings that go with the holidays, then I'll stop celebrating those holidays. But to have those holidays so heavily commercialized and pushed on the masses in such a perverse way while still saying out of the other side of the mouth that no one but REAL Christians can celebrate them is duplicitous and hypocritical. And any Christian that would wish that the world NOT celebrate a day of peace, goodwill towards friends, family and even total strangers, and increasing the amount of love we have in this world if even for a short while probably needs to go back and do some reading of their own good book.

jag

 

[Jack Rabbit]

Then why don't Jewish and Muslim people celebrate them? Because they don't believe in them. It is simple if you don't believe it don't celebrate.

While I find your very straightforward analysis amusing, it lacks the shades of gray.

Who honestly believes in Thanksgiving? Yah, the pilgrims and the Native Americans played well together and made nice-nice. Yeah. Right.

It's an idiotic holiday, and even a brief glance at U.S. history involving Native American tribes will spin a different tale.

So do you not celebrate Thanksgiving, because it's a complete LIE?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

This discussion brings to mind another age-old question for professed atheists: "If you truly don't believe that God exists, then why become so angry when His name is mentioned?" You'd think they simply shrug it off, but all too often, it's the exact opposite. Atheists become angry, bitter, defensive, and procrastinating whenever someone dares to speak to them about Christ. If they didn't have any belief at all, then it wouldn't anger them.

I am personally of the belief that the reason for this anger is because, deep down in their heart, they know that Christ is real, and they know God's Word is true. They just don't want to admit it to themselves, because if they did, they'd have to own up for everything they've done, and be accountable to Someone higher than themselves. It's the same reason a lot of people reject Christ: they don't want to face the total Truth of right versus wrong.

Regarding the holidays, I agree they've become far too commercialized, and I think Ring Deacon has a valid point. Think about it: if you're going to reject Christ the other 363 days of the year, then why celebrate Christmas or Easter in any form? At best, it's foolishness; at worst, it's hypocrisy.

 

[moraldeficiency]

This discussion brings to mind another age-old question for professed atheists: "If you truly don't believe that God exists, then why become so angry when His name is mentioned?" You'd think they simply shrug it off, but all too often, it's the exact opposite. Atheists become angry, bitter, defensive, and procrastinating whenever someone dares to speak to them about Christ. If they didn't have any belief at all, then it wouldn't anger them.

I am personally of the belief that the reason for this anger is because, deep down in their heart, they know that Christ is real, and they know God's Word is true. They just don't want to admit it to themselves, because if they did, they'd have to own up for everything they've done, and be accountable to Someone higher than themselves. It's the same reason a lot of people reject Christ: they don't want to face the total Truth of right versus wrong.

Regarding the holidays, I agree they've become far too commercialized, and I think Ring Deacon has a valid point. Think about it: if you're going to reject Christ the other 363 days of the year, then why celebrate Christmas or Easter in any form? At best, it's foolishness; at worst, it's hypocrisy.

If you truely believe God does exist then why become angry when atheists act that way? Just shrug it off like you said.

 

[Jack Rabbit]

Bingo! Tell you what. As soon as it's no longer a national holiday and the stores aren't crammed with Christmas tree decorations, lights, Christmas sales, easter egg coloring kits, Easter & Christmas candy, visages of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all the other commercial trappings that go with the holidays, then I'll stop celebrating those holidays. But to have those holidays so heavily commercialized and pushed on the masses in such a perverse way while still saying out of the other side of the mouth that no one but REAL Christians can celebrate them is duplicitous and hypocritical. And any Christian that would wish that the world NOT celebrate a day of peace, goodwill towards friends, family and even total strangers, and increasing the amount of love we have in this world if even for a short while probably needs to go back and do some reading of their own good book.

jag

I agree entirely.

It's a VERY Christain thing to say, 'If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't participate.'

Well, it's a very Baptist thing to say...kind of like 'If you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to hell,' or better yet, 'If you aren't Baptist, you're going to hell.'

I'm a fairly educated person when it comes to religion. Most Christain sects have pretty ridgid, exclusive dogmas. "Hey, we'll welcome you if you join our church, but otherwise you can take a seat outside and we'll pray for your soul, because you're going to hell."

 

[Moviefan2k4]

If you truely believe God does exist, then why become angry when atheists act that way? Just shrug it off like you said.

There's something that even Jesus displayed, called "righteous anger". He turned over the tables in the Holy Temple, saying, "You have turned my Father's house into a den of thieves!" He was angry, and rightfully so. the same applies to this. Christians have every right to be angry or opposed when someone takes an active stance against God. There's nothing inherently wrong with anger; what determines the moral aspect is what you do with that emotion.

 

[jaguarr]

...if you're going to reject Christ the other 363 days of the year, then why celebrate Christmas or Easter in any form? At best, it's foolishness; at worst, it's hypocrisy.

What you're not understanding is that atheists and agnostics aren't celebrating anything regarding Jesus on those days. They're celebrating time with their families and appreciating what they have and keeping some goodwill and love towards their fellow man in their hearts. For us, it's not about Jesus, it's about peace on earth and spreading a bit of love. It's a day to remember that we all need to be better about doing so in the rest of our lives. So, no foolishness or hypocrisy there that I can smell.

jag

 

[November Rain]

As a non christian but religious person, i don't see the problem with people celebrating religious events if they have an open mind..

however, if on one day they are buying christmas presents and on the next day they are calling people who go to church bible bashers and short-sighted, then that is another thing entirely.

unfortunately, plenty of athiests have painted as bad a reputation of their beliefs as those hardcore relgious people have for their side.

The average athiest is not only seen as a non-believer but a religion hater these days that happily participates in religious based festivals.

So i guess the thread starter is really asking whether people who bash christianity then celebrate their holidays which then removes them from other athiests who happen to be perhaps open minded (more agnostic than athiest perhaps).

 

[thedeadite]

Why do I celebrate Xmas when I don't believe in god?

Simple answer, because i want to. The holiday has no connections with religion when it comes to me (personally). Like has been said already, the time around December 25th has been celebrated long before christians adopted the date for their own purposes. To me it's merely a celebration of family and happiness.

 

[jaguarr]

I agree entirely.

It's a VERY Christain thing to say, 'If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't participate.'

Well, it's a very Baptist thing to say...kind of like 'If you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to hell,' or better yet, 'If you aren't Baptist, you're going to hell.'

I'm a fairly educated person when it comes to religion. Most Christain sects have pretty ridgid, exclusive dogmas. "Hey, we'll welcome you if you join our church, but otherwise you can take a seat outside and we'll pray for your soul, because you're going to hell."

Yeah, Fundamentalists like Baptists are pretty hardline on these sorts of things. You start dealing with some more openminded sects of Christianity like Lutherans or Episcopalians and you start seeing more flexibility and a little more love towards their fellow man, regardless of their creed.

jag

 

[moraldeficiency]

There's something that even Jesus displayed, called "righteous anger". He turned over the tables in the Holy Temple, saying, "You have turned my Father's house into a den of thieves!" He was angry, and rightfully so. the same applies to this. Christians have every right to be angry or opposed when someone takes an active stance against God. There's nothing inherently wrong with anger; what determines the moral aspect is what you do with that emotion.

Look I'm a taoist/christian not an atheist, but maybe they feel righteous anger over people getting lied to by supposed "men of god" that pervert christianity's origins and mutaliate it to suit their purposes. Hell I do, and I'm not an atheist.

It boils down to this, any way you take christmas or whatever it becomes about families getting together, sharing, being thankful and thinking of others. These are very christian aspects and to see other people no matter what belief structure doing this on a time that means something more to you should only make you happy and renew your faith in the impact of religion on the world. Comercialized? Yes, but it still makes you think of others and what they don't have, most families I know give more to the poor and needy at these times than any other. There's a bastardization of the holiday, sure, but as mentioned the original holiday was bastardized to fit with pagan beliefs to aid with converting others and streamline events. Consider the comercialization as the inverse of this.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Yeah, Fundamentalists like Baptists are pretty hardline on these sorts of things. You start dealing with some more openminded sects of Christianity like Lutherans or Episcopalians and you start seeing more flexibility and a little more love towards their fellow man, regardless of their creed.

That is a very fine line, though, because the more you push the boundaries of Christianity (established by Christ Himself), the more likely you'll wind up not even recognizing the Truth. I'm no radical fundamentalist, but I do take God at His Word. I don't attack or verbally assault people for not believing; rather, I often ask as to why they don't believe. You'd be suprised at how many folks (reagrdless of their ways) eventually end up with a simple answer if you mention Christ long enough.

 

[sinewave]

All I am saying is that if you strongly believe that there is no God then you should avoid his holidays. I don't celebrate Hanukkah, Ramadan, Rosh Hashanah or any other religous holidays that are not Christian. Because i don't have the same beliefs.

As a Christian I know the history of Christmas and why we celebrate it in December, but that doesn't take away the fact that we are celebrating the birth of "The most important man to ever live." And that easter is the celebration of his triumph over death. It was the Secular world that comericalized Christmas and Easter not Christians.

I find it funny that an Athiest will celebrate a Christian holiday but not a Jewish or Muslim one. To me and maybe I am alone here, but it makes Athiests out to be hypocrites. Come on stand up for what you bleieve in avoid all religous holidays. Talk about doing it for your family all you want, but if they love you they will respect your belief to not celebrate.

i was raised catholic, but decided i didn't buy into the idea of a god. i still celebrate the holidays because it's more of a tradition for me. plus, most of my family and in-laws are devout chrisitians, so it kind of comes with the territory. are you advocating that we disassociate ourselves from our loved ones during that celebration just because we don't share their beliefs?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

...maybe they feel righteous anger over people getting lied to by supposed "men of god" that pervert christianity's origins and mutaliate it to suit their purposes.

Sadly, there are those who take what God said in the Bible, and pervert it with their own viewpoints. I've often heard it said: "Don't judge Christianity by the acts of Christians", and the statement definitely holds some weight. I'm a believer myself, and there are a few fellow Christ-followers that I trust, but when I'm really confused, I go to the Source. Being a Christian doesn't mean you're always holy and never make mistakes; rather, it's a choice to accept by faith what Jesus said about both Himself and God. It's a decision to trust Him, even more at times than trusting anyone else.

 

[Kent]

Do you celebrate Christmas and Easter? If yes why?

In my opinion as a Christian if you do not believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ then you shouldn’t celebrate his birth or the day he rose from the dead. There is no other reason to celebrate these holidays because they are Christian holidays not Secular.

As an atheist I do not celebrate the birth of Christ. I join in festivities with my family on the 24th/25th of December, but not to celebrate Christ. I don't know why the rest of my family does it, but I do to celebrate family and friends, and because it provides some much needed warmth and togetherness in the cold depressing darkness of the Swedish winter.

As for Easter, as an atheist I have never done anything special during that time.
Besides, whatever stuff is done around that time in Sweden seems to have little to no connection to anything resembling Christianity. Traditionally there's a whole thing with painting eggs, and children dressing up as witches and going house to house pestering people for candy (so sort of like Halloween, only with less freedom when it comes to the dressing up part).

Of course I'd like to point of that Winter Solstice and Spring celebrations far outdate the Christian celebrations around those times of the year, and that almost all the stuff that is done during Christmas and Easter (at least here in Sweden) is in some way related to old pagan traditions rather than Christianity. When looking at Christmas in particular, you note a lot of similarities with "Yule" (coincidentally Christmas is called Jul in Sweden, which is pretty much pronounced "Yule").

 

[moraldeficiency]

Sadly, there are those who take what God said in the Bible, and pervert it with their own viewpoints. I've often heard it said: "Don't judge Christianity by the acts of Christians", and the statement definitely holds some weight. I'm a believer myself, and there are a few fellow Christ-followers that I trust, but when I'm really confused, I go to the Source. Being a Christian doesn't mean you're always holy and never make mistakes; rather, it's a choice to accept by faith what Jesus said about both Himself and God. It's a decision to trust Him, even more at times than trusting anyone else.

I agree, all I was saying is I see why they would get upset also. The only reasonable response to me is to avoid things like "righteous anger" cause that only leads down a very long and very dark road which end in war and death.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Let me "explain" it to you.

Most people who "celebrate" "Christmas" are not followers of Christ.
They like the cheery music, the sights, the smells and especially giving and receiving gifts.
They think Santa and his elves are cute. They like to watch "It's A Wonderful Life" and "Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer", curled up by the fire with their spiced Rum drink when it's cold outside.


Next, they think bunnies are cute, they think chicks are cute, and it's fun for their kids to go on an expedition seeking brightly colored hard-boiled eggs.

I have not read back on this entire Troll thread, but I'm certain that someone has pointed out the massive hypocrisy or possible ignorance of the poster regarding the fact that, even if you slap Jesus stickers on front, Christmas and Easter are still Pagan holidays and a non-believer has just as much, if not more, claim to these silly, fun little customs as a Christian does.

 

[Kent]

I am personally of the belief that the reason for this anger is because, deep down in their heart, they know that Christ is real, and they know God's Word is true.
They just don't want to admit it to themselves, because if they did, they'd have to own up for everything they've done, and be accountable to Someone higher than themselves. It's the same reason a lot of people reject Christ: they don't want to face the total Truth of right versus wrong.

See... why would anyone be upset about people mentioning God when it's followed by this kind of wonderful stuff?
Apparently I'm self deluded, and don't know what I actually believe, because I'm a dirty amoral bastard and I want to keep it that way thank you very much.

 

[sinewave]

This discussion brings to mind another age-old question for professed atheists: "If you truly don't believe that God exists, then why become so angry when His name is mentioned?" You'd think they simply shrug it off, but all too often, it's the exact opposite. Atheists become angry, bitter, defensive, and procrastinating whenever someone dares to speak to them about Christ. If they didn't have any belief at all, then it wouldn't anger them.

do you even know any atheists personally? why generalize something like this about a huge group of individuals? i myself don't believe in a god or plural gods, but i couldn't care less if other people do or if they use his name or profess their love for him. i've been surrounded by religious people my whole life and i understand what their faith means to them and try to respect that. and that's all we atheists and agnostics want, respect for our beliefs. therefore, i have a problem with the hostility displayed by some christians towards us "non-believers". i mentioned this in another thread a while back, i was visiting my family back home in maine and noticed a marquee on a former movie theater that's been converted into a church that said "god doesn't believe in atheists, therefore atheists don't exist". why the need to attack a group of people just because they don't share you beliefs? that doesn't seem very chrsitian to me. we're not a threat to christians, so why attack us?

I am personally of the belief that the reason for this anger is because, deep down in their heart, they know that Christ is real, and they know God's Word is true. They just don't want to admit it to themselves, because if they did, they'd have to own up for everything they've done, and be accountable to Someone higher than themselves. It's the same reason a lot of people reject Christ: they don't want to face the total Truth of right versus wrong.

speaking for myself, i don't believe in god or that jesus was anything more than a mortal man, because my sense of logic just won't allow that. it just doesn't jibe with me that there's someone watching over us and he's more than willing to see certain people through hardships and trauma and sporting events, yet he'll let other, perfectly innocent people suffer. and i definitely am not capable of making the leap of faith that it's all part of some grand scheme and we're not capable of understanding his methods. religious dogma has been passed down from generation to generation and was originally created by mortal men who were trying to interpret something they have no way of proving existed and who also believed in other things that turned out to be fictitious, so i can't, in good conscience, follow those beliefs. it's not about trying to get away with as much sin as possible without having to atone for it. i try to live a good life without harming others or committing crimes, but i don't believe in sin as the christians define it because, while they're good examples of how not to behave, they also mirror common sense and decency (which is the basis for a healthy society in the first place) and i prefer to think of that as just being the right thing to do without tying it to some man-made religious principle.

Regarding the holidays, I agree they've become far too commercialized, and I think Ring Deacon has a valid point. Think about it: if you're going to reject Christ the other 363 days of the year, then why celebrate Christmas or Easter in any form? At best, it's foolishness; at worst, it's hypocrisy.

as many have already said in this thread, it's not about the religious side of the holidays for us, it's more about family and peace and all that other razzmatazz. i celebrate halloween and i'm not pagan. how about you?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

See... why would anyone be upset about people mentioning God when it's followed by this kind of wonderful stuff? Apparently I'm self deluded, and don't know what I actually believe, because I'm a dirty amoral bastard and I want to keep it that way thank you very much.

All sarcasm aside, you've just made my point for me, Kent. Atheists in general claim to neither accept nor care about God, because they don't believe He exists. And yet, when faced with statements regarding Christ, God, repentance, or moral Truth, they actually take time from their day to try and discredit Christians. One of my favorite songs, which I've mentioned before, contains the following lyrics:

"He ain't the leavin' kind / He'd never walk away / Even from those who don't believe / And wanna leave Him behind / He ain't the leavin' kind / no matter what you do / He's always right there / With you..."

Speaking for myself, I don't believe in God or that Jesus was anything more than a mortal man, because my sense of logic just won't allow that.

That's where real faith comes in. By its very definition, faith has nothing to do with human intellect or logic. Rather, it's a choice to believe that which has no mortal explanation. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who see and believe, but even more blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe."

 

[Spider-Fan]

All sarcasm aside, you've just made my point for me, Kent. Atheists in general claim to neither accept nor care about God, because they don't believe He exists. And yet, when faced with statements regarding Christ, God, repentance, or moral Truth, they actually take time from their day to try and discredit Christians. One of my favorite songs, which I've mentioned before, contains the following lyrics:

"He ain't the leavin' kind / He'd never walk away / Even from those who don't believe / And wanna leave Him behind / He ain't the leavin' kind / no matter what you do / He's always right there / With you..."

I am sorry, but I have seen far more Christians attack Athiests than Athiests attack Christians.

It is the Christians who seem angry people are going away from God. Not the Athiests at God.

THIS DOES NOT GO FOR ALL CHRISTIANS BEFORE I GET FLAMED. I just know a lot of preachy people that are like that.

 

[squeekness]

Bingo! Tell you what. As soon as it's no longer a national holiday and the stores aren't crammed with Christmas tree decorations, lights, Christmas sales, easter egg coloring kits, Easter & Christmas candy, visages of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and all the other commercial trappings that go with the holidays, then I'll stop celebrating those holidays. But to have those holidays so heavily commercialized and pushed on the masses in such a perverse way while still saying out of the other side of the mouth that no one but REAL Christians can celebrate them is duplicitous and hypocritical. And any Christian that would wish that the world NOT celebrate a day of peace, goodwill towards friends, family and even total strangers, and increasing the amount of love we have in this world if even for a short while probably needs to go back and do some reading of their own good book.

jag

I can agree with this. The commercialism bugs me, sure, but how can any Christian complain about holidays that promote spending time with your families and peace? We need all the help we can get around here...

 

[jaguarr]

do you even know any atheists personally? why generalize something like this about a huge group of individuals? i myself don't believe in a god or plural gods, but i couldn't care less if other people do or if they use his name or profess their love for him. i've been surrounded by religious people my whole life and i understand what their faith means to them and try to respect that. and that's all we atheists and agnostics want, respect for our beliefs. therefore, i have a problem with the hostility displayed by some christians towards us "non-believers". i mentioned this in another thread a while back, i was visiting my family back home in maine and noticed a marquee on a former movie theater that's been converted into a church that said "god doesn't believe in atheists, therefore atheists don't exist". why the need to attack a group of people just because they don't share you beliefs? that doesn't seem very chrsitian to me. we're not a threat to christians, so why attack us?


speaking for myself, i don't believe in god or that jesus was anything more than a mortal man, because my sense of logic just won't allow that. it just doesn't jibe with me that there's someone watching over us and he's more than willing to see certain people through hardships and trauma and sporting events, yet he'll let other, perfectly innocent people suffer. and i definitely am not capable of making the leap of faith that it's all part of some grand scheme and we're not capable of understanding his methods. religious dogma has been passed down from generation to generation and was originally created by mortal men who were trying to interpret something they have no way of proving existed and who also believed in other things that turned out to be fictitious, so i can't, in good conscience, follow those beliefs. it's not about trying to get away with as much sin as possible without having to atone for it. i try to live a good life without harming others or committing crimes, but i don't believe in sin as the christians define it because, while they're good examples of how not to behave, they also mirror common sense and decency (which is the basis for a healthy society in the first place) and i prefer to think of that as just being the right thing to do without tying it to some man-made religious principle.



as many have already said in this thread, it's not about the religious side of the holidays for us, it's more about family and peace and all that other razzmatazz. i celebrate halloween and i'm not pagan. how about you?

Excellent post, but I mourn for the lose of your "Caps" key.

I can agree with this. The commercialism bugs me, sure, but how can any Christian complain about holidays that promote spending time with your families and peace? We need all the help we can get around here...

Amen.

jag

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I can agree with this. The commercialism bugs me, sure, but how can any Christian complain about holidays that promote spending time with your families and peace? We need all the help we can get around here...

What would be infinitely better is if people would treat each other that way year-round, instead of waiting for a holiday.

 

[jaguarr]

What would be infinitely better is if people would treat each other that way year-round, instead of waiting for a holiday.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you at all on that particular point, but do you not see the value in having at least a handful of days per year that remind us that we need to be more consistent about treating others well throughout the year?

jag