A World Without America: What if??

[Admiral_N8]

I was speaking of course of a superpower opposed to Communism, even if pacifistic.

And again, moot point. No pacifistic country would achieve superpower status.

That doesnt mean a superpower will remain an interventionist once it attains superpower status.

And I disagree with the idea that no pacifistic country can achieve superpower status, because in 50ish years I think China will be one without being an interventionist nation.

 

[JLBats]

I never said what happened if the USA stopped existing in 1770s, but if TODAY it somehow disapeared or became isolationist, or if it did 100 years ago. Because its obvious if we talk about the USA not being there since 1770 we couldnt make anything close to an accurate statement about today and how things would be.

But even a hundred years ago could have drastic effects on the rest of the world. Would Hitler still come to power? Would the UN still get founded? Would Stalin and Lenin still kill the Czar?

Ultimately, the most personal loss to me is your popular culture. There would still be superpowers and they would still come with all the bad and good of the US. But would we still get The Simpsons, The Maltese Falcon, The Doors, any number of Steve McQueen movies?

Perhaps it seems trivial, but the loss seems more measurable to me than the global one.

 

[JLBats]

That doesnt mean a superpower will remain an interventionist once it attains superpower status.

And I disagree with the idea that no pacifistic country can achieve superpower status, because in 50ish years I think China will be one without being an interventionist nation.

But that would make it more of a financial superpower, I assumed we were talking about a military oriented superpower.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Pretty much. Travel back in time, step on a fly, come back to the present, we're all living under the sea.

What was that movie where the guy kills a butterfly and comes back to a "big brother type" society.

 

[Admiral_N8]

But even a hundred years ago could have drastic effects on the rest of the world. Would Hitler still come to power? Would the UN still get founded? Would Stalin and Lenin still kill the Czar?

Ultimately, the most personal loss to me is your popular culture. There would still be superpowers and they would still come with all the bad and good of the US. But would we still get The Simpsons, The Maltese Falcon, The Doors, any number of Steve McQueen movies?

Perhaps it seems trivial, but the loss seems more measurable to me than the global one.

The UN would probably not be founded, since it was almost entirely a US idea and almost entirely supported by US funds [and ideas forced by US military] in the early days. And I agree about the American culture, that would actually be a bigger loss than most might realize.

 

[Calvin]

What was that movie where the guy kills a butterfly and comes back to a "big brother type" society.

Dunno, I've only seen the Simpson parody of it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I never said what happened if the USA stopped existing in 1770s, but if TODAY it somehow disapeared or became isolationist, or if it did 100 years ago. Because its obvious if we talk about the USA not being there since 1770 we couldnt make anything close to an accurate statement about today and how things would be.

You mean right this very second Today

 

[Admiral_N8]

But that would make it more of a financial superpower, I assumed we were talking about a military oriented superpower.

Not sure why you assumed that...

China can be a military orientated superpower, doesnt mean it has to go and bomb people. Any superpower has to be an economic and military superpower or it isnt a superpower at all.

Look at Japan, a HUGE economic power but nowhere near close to a Superpower since it lacks any kind of military capable of anything but defense.

 

[JLBats]

The UN would probably not be founded, since it was almost entirely a US idea and almost entirely supported by US funds [and ideas forced by US military] in the early days. And I agree about the American culture, that would actually be a bigger loss than most might realize.

Yes, I know, making this whole discussion largely moot.

 

[Admiral_N8]

You mean right this very second Today

Yeah. Like what effect would the world see if Bush said "Well son of a gun, we screwed up, so we are gonna pull back and just sit here and twiddle our thumbs and play horseshoes."?

 

[Calvin]

What if, suddenly, pants stopped existing today?

 

[Admiral_N8]

Yes, I know, making this whole discussion largely moot.

How is that moot? That is the discussion, what affect their would be, one of which being the UN probably not being around.

Thats the point of this thread: "what if"?

 

[JLBats]

Not sure why you assumed that...

China can be a military orientated superpower, doesnt mean it has to go and bomb people. Any superpower has to be an economic and military superpower or it isnt a superpower at all.

Look at Japan, a HUGE economic power but nowhere near close to a Superpower since it lacks any kind of military capable of anything but defense.

So you're suggesting that it's highly possible to see a superpower with no interventionalist tendencies, despite the lack of historical foundation for it?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The UN would probably not be founded, since it was almost entirely a US idea and almost entirely supported by US funds [and ideas forced by US military] in the early days. And I agree about the American culture, that would actually be a bigger loss than most might realize.

Well just to start off. assuming 60 years ago, we'd lose any and all technology created in the US. Any political science theories on economic, social and fiscal policy would be gone. No NASA, No UN, No export of culture (like sports, movies and entertainment--our LARGEST export). The amount of literature lost could be astronomical, amount of Noble Prize winners. Vietnam, Korea, Mogudishu, Global AIDs and other disaster relief, conflicts with Iraq, Israel the country would all cease to exist. Plus there is no way to assume particular people would ever exist.

 

[JLBats]

How is that moot? That is the discussion, what affect their would be, one of which being the UN probably not being around.

Thats the point of this thread: "what if"?

Because it literally makes this world so far removed from the one that would have resulted that further conversation becomes murky and difficult, particularly regarding specifics.

 

[Admiral_N8]

So you're suggesting that it's highly possible to see a superpower with no interventionalist tendencies, despite the lack of historical foundation for it?

Yes, because the world is hugely different then the colonial times of the UK and Napolean...constant occupation and intervention all across the globe in their power struggles.

Today its about the threat of a big stick and enough money to have such a huge stick.

 

[JLBats]

Yes, because the world is hugely different then the colonial times of the UK and Napolean...constant occupation and intervention all across the globe in their power struggles.

Today its about the threat of a big stick and enough money to have such a huge stick.

Yes, but would it really be in the nature of a pacifistic nation to threaten other nations with it's enormous stick?

 

[Admiral_N8]

Well just to start off. assuming 60 years ago, we'd lose any and all technology created in the US. Any political science theories on economic, social and fiscal policy would be gone. No NASA, No UN, No export of culture (like sports, movies and entertainment--our LARGEST export). The amount of literature lost could be astronomical, amount of Noble Prize winners. Vietnam, Korea, Mogudishu, Global AIDs and other disaster relief, conflicts with Iraq, Israel the country would all cease to exist. Plus there is no way to assume particular people would ever exist.

Good post

Plus, Europe would have taken many more years to get back on its feet [assuming it wasnt taken over by the USSR] because of the lack of funds from the Marshal Plan.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah. Like what effect would the world see if Bush said "Well son of a gun, we screwed up, so we are gonna pull back and just sit here and twiddle our thumbs and play horseshoes."?

In other words if our President isolated our country. Well military wise it might help a little right now for us to "cool off" for a spell. However economically we are a debtor nation, and isolating ourselves from the outside globalized economy would cripple us to the point of economic starvation.

 

[Admiral_N8]

Yes, but would it really be in the nature of a pacifistic nation to threaten other nations with it's enormous stick?

No, I am talking about China. You wouldnt call it pacifist or interventionist either, somewhere in the middle.

 

[Admiral_N8]

In other words if our President isolated our country. Well military wise it might help a little right now for us to "cool off" for a spell. However economically we are a debtor nation, and isolating ourselves from the outside globalized economy would cripple us to the point of economic starvation.

Ok, yes all true, but I am specifically trying to talk about the World, the impact on the rest of the world here.

True post though.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Ok, yes all true, but I am specifically trying to talk about the World, the impact on the rest of the world here.

True post though.

On the rest of the world...they would take a huge hit economically as well, the world might sink into another great depression...its quiet possible China would arise as a huge superpower afterwards.

 

[JLBats]

No, I am talking about China. You wouldnt call it pacifist or interventionist either, somewhere in the middle.

Yes, I mean what if a nation like France, a passive appeasing nation, would have been the superpower to take Americas place?

They wouldnt have the will to do what it takes to stop communism...dont you think?

China is hardly a passive appeasing nation, then, so it doesn't really count for an example of a superpower of such a nature.

 

[Admiral_N8]

On the rest of the world...they would take a huge hit economically as well, the world might sink into another great depression...its quiet possible China would arise as a huge superpower afterwards.

Well China is so hugely dependant on the USA as their [almost only] market for their goods. They need a rich nation to buy their crap...so I would argue it would take a very long time for them to recover, long enough to put them behind India.

 

[Admiral_N8]

China is hardly a passive appeasing nation, then, so it doesn't really count for an example of a superpower of such a nature.

We were talking about a superpower that can become a superpower without military intervention, you mentioned you dont think its possible. I mentioned China as a good example of one that probably will attain superpower status based purely on economic power and military might without miltary action.