Across the Kraven-verse: How Sony Won the Superhero Cinematic Civil War Thread - Part 59

[Shinobi Shaw]

Guys I'm super restless, and just going through Disney+'s MCU catalogue. Multiverse of Madness, the modern classic that it is, did not deserve the mixed reviews. And Elizabeth Olsen is a national treasure.

How can you not fear her and empathize with her all at once in this movie?

That performance was everything.

Can't wait until Magneto meets his daughter.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Guys I'm super restless, and just going through Disney+'s MCU catalogue. Multiverse of Madness, the modern classic that it is, did not deserve the mixed reviews. And Elizabeth Olsen is a national treasure.

How can you not fear her and empathize with her all at once in this movie?

That performance was everything.

Can't wait until Magneto meets his daughter.

 

[Marvel Unified]

IMO, if Feige is smart, he'll position 'The Kang Dynasty ' as a sort of "last stand" for 616 to prep the MCU for a soft reboot ahead of Secret Wars.

The Council should come in, and easily annihilate our UNIVERSE, as they've done to countless worlds before ours (exactly as Kang described in Quantumania). It should be devastating, it should be dark, and there needs to be a sense of hopelessness.

Those who survive the "death" of the MCU, carry over to Secret Wars.

Everything dies.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

IMO, if Feige is smart, he'll position 'The Kang Dynasty ' as a sort of "last stand" for 616 to prep the MCU for a soft reboot ahead of Secret Wars.

The Council should come in, and easily annihilate our UNIVERSE, as they've done to countless worlds before ours (exactly as Kang described in Quantumania). It should be devastating, it should be dark, and there needs to be a sense of hopelessness.

Those who survive the "death" of the MCU, carry over to Secret Wars.

Everything dies.

They already made Infinity War.

 

[flickchick85]

I was gonna say, pretty sure I've seen that one before. And recently.

 

[Snow Queen]

The snap was totally different, let me explain...

 

[flickchick85]

The snap was totally different, let me explain...

View attachment 64350

This dude should've played the Flash.

 

[Snow Queen]

This dude should've played the Flash.

As far as I know, he hasn't terrorized all of Hawaii yet.

 

[flickchick85]

As far as I know, he hasn't terrorized all of Hawaii yet.

There's still time.

 

[Sithborg]

I am going to laugh if the last minute reverse course on Secret Wars.

Multiverse war? Nah, Hero vs hero tournament arc to end the Multiverse saga.

 

[Detective Conan]

I think it's important to realize it's fans are what get the public hyped. Those that engage, talk about it, hype it up. Game of Thrones didn't gain traction because fans were turned off, but because they were so into it, it got into the mainstream. A down fandom does no favors for franchises. And if we're real, fans are the general audience. Those that go see a Batman, Star Wars, Mario, etc. are fans. How they become fans is one thing. But that base is watch sets up large launching pads.

I think you may have a point there, but where I differ is I think there is a difference between the casual fans and more hardcore fandom. Most fans that see for example a Batman movie are likely casuals who don’t keep up to date on the comics side of things or watch the direct-to-video animated flicks, and certainly aren’t closely following the behind the scenes production announcements closely. Granted, it’s not inconceivable that the premature announcement of a new universe may have negatively impacted excitement for the remaining movies from the old regime but I don’t think it was a huge factor. Most casuals just didn’t care to see Shazam 2 regardless of a reboot or not.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am going to laugh if the last minute reverse course on Secret Wars.

Multiverse war? Nah, Hero vs hero tournament arc to end the Multiverse saga.

Going to get weird and say Kang Dynasty is actually an attempt to protect our universe from the other Kangs, about to show up with their champions.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think you may have a point there, but where I differ is I think there is a difference between the casual fans and more hardcore fandom. Most fans that see for example a Batman movie are likely casuals who don’t keep up to date on the comics side of things or watch the direct-to-video animated flicks, and certainly aren’t closely following the behind the scenes production announcements closely. Granted, it’s not inconceivable that the premature announcement of a new universe may have negatively impacted excitement for the remaining movies from the old regime but I don’t think it was a huge factor. Most casuals just didn’t care to see Shazam 2 regardless of a reboot or not.

There is a difference. But what is important is influence a happy "hardcore" fanbase has on the WOM of a flick before it ever gets out. We actually saw this with all the legacy sequels we've gotten over the last decade.

If enough "hardcores" tell people not to go see something because it doesn't matter anymore, it grows. Then it gets hit with bad reviews? No mas.

 

[Marvel Unified]

Well, yes. The Multiverse being destroyed is... quite different, from the snap.

All movies have a formula, all stories repeat the same basic beats. They're going to end up repeating SOME beats from Infinity War, no matter what they do, because Secret Wars has to happen. But the execution, realization of those beats, is what's going to make the story different.

Kang is already 1000x the threat Thano was, and is, and logically would be, unbeatable, for our current crop of heroes. The Avengers are a joke to Kang. The Council has killed thousands, maybe even MILLIONS of variants of them.

Let that sit with audiences. Let them feel the crushing weight of that. And let Reed, the smartest man in the world, the only equal, across every universe, to Kang, be that only glimmer of hope.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I thought the movie was about Kang, and his outlook, his journey, and his downfall? With that in mind, the story of the heroes should serve him, not the other way around. In fact, I'd argue that's the only way to do it from a narrative perspective, because Kang fully powered would be so ridiculously op, that a character like Sam Wilson trying to stand up to him would be a ridiculous, and that's just based on the feats they've established in Quantumania. Now magnify Kang by thousands, and it becomes a laughably easy stomp for him/them. It would be a slaughter, Kang's assault on universe 616.

The goal then, would be to tell the story from Nathaniel's perspective, and emphasize the characters that have the most meaningful* connection to Kang, and that's the Fantastic Four, and more specifically, Reed. Kang is not a character you can "fight". He's too powerful, and there's too many of him, he would easily steamroll the Avengers (esp the current candidates we have).

No, he's a problem, of Multiversal scale, that you have to SOLVE, and Reed is the ONLY one who can do that. There's sooo much potential in drawing those parallels between Reed and Kang.

IMO the climax of this saga, needs to end with the Council of Reeds defeating the Council of Kangs.

It's an Avengers movie. So it is going to be about the Avengers. You can still develop the villain even if the movie isn't directly about the villain.

 

[Snow Queen]

Well, yes. The Multiverse being destroyed is... quite different, from the snap.

All movies have a formula, all stories repeat the same basic beats. They're going to end up repeating SOME beats from Infinity War, no matter what they do, because Secret Wars has to happen. But the execution, realization of those beats, is what's going to make the story different.

Kang is already 1000x the threat Thano was, and is, and logically would be, unbeatable, for our current crop of heroes. The Avengers are a joke to Kang. The Council has killed thousands, maybe even MILLIONS of variants of them.

Let that sit with audiences. Let them feel the crushing weight of that. And let Reed, the smartest man in the world, the only equal, across every universe, to Kang, be that only glimmer of hope.

Reads a lot like it's different because it happens again but bigger, which is the laziest sequel trope of all. Having a character introduced a year prior be the entire answer to how to resolve the conflict doesn't change that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

IMO, if Feige is smart, he'll position 'The Kang Dynasty ' as a sort of "last stand" for 616 to prep the MCU for a soft reboot ahead of Secret Wars.

The Council should come in, and easily annihilate our UNIVERSE, as they've done to countless worlds before ours (exactly as Kang described in Quantumania). It should be devastating, it should be dark, and there needs to be a sense of hopelessness.

Those who survive the "death" of the MCU, carry over to Secret Wars.

Everything dies.

Dude, Kevin Feige IS smart and he doesn't need to make movies YOUR way to prove that. Show me your Producer resume.

 

[Sithborg]

I think the greatest mistake they made with Infinity War and Endgame was diluting the Avengers brand. Because now, everyone expects everyone to be in it. And its going to cause issues if they aren't. Its sort like the problem with the next Smash Bros. When it doesn't have everyone, it is going to disappoint people. I don't foresee the FF being in Kang Dynasty.

Hell, based on what has been said, getting Thor back may be an issue.

 

[Marvel Unified]

Reads a lot like it's different because it happens again but bigger, which is the laziest sequel trope of all. Having a character introduced a year prior be the entire answer to how to resolve the conflict doesn't change that.

No matter what, this movie is going to have some variation of "heroes lose" beat as it's concluding point. But that variation, the form it takes, could be so radically different, that people won't even remember Infinity War.

There's a lot of potential here.

It's an Avengers movie. So it is going to be about the Avengers. You can still develop the villain even if the movie isn't directly about the villain.

But Kang isn't a "villain" in that sense, he's a force of nature. There's no "fighting" someone who can rewrite existence, and atomize people with the flick of a wrist.

It's like pitting the Avengers against thousands of Dr. Manhattans. He's an existential problem whose defeat calls for something beyond what the current roster of heroes are equipped to deal with. Kang is beyond their comprehension, almost Lovecraftian horror in a sense (I think Loki did a great job capturing that element of the character).

If Marvel had balls, they'd structure 'The Kang Dynasty' like a disaster movie, with dozens of heroes dying left and right, as the heroes come to grips with the fact that their world is going to die, and there's nobody they can do about it, except ESCAPE.

Enter the Life Raft, straight out of Hickman's 'Time Runs Out'.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No matter what, this movie is going to have some variation of "heroes lose" beat as it's concluding point. But that variation, the form it takes, could be so radically different, that people won't even remember Infinity War.

There's a lot of potential here.

But Kang isn't a "villain" in that sense, he's a force of nature. There's no "fighting" someone who can rewrite existence, and atomize people with the flick of a wrist.

It's like pitting the Avengers against thousands of Dr. Manhattans. He's an existential problem whose defeat calls for something beyond what the current roster of heroes are equipped to deal with. Kang is beyond their comprehension, almost Lovecraftian horror in a sense (I think Loki did a great job capturing that element of the character).

If Marvel had balls, they'd structure 'The Kang Dynasty' like a disaster movie, with dozens of heroes dying left and right, as the heroes come to grips with the fact that their world is going to die, and there's nobody they can do about it, except ESCAPE.

Enter the Life Raft, straight out of Hickman's 'Time Runs Out'.

You know what I think your problem is and why the MCU is turning you off right now? Because you are writing a movie/phase in your head right now, and I am guessing you are doing this with other projects and such given how you constantly use your opinion as the basis of what Feige should be doing otherwise he knows nothing despite making the largest franchise in Hollywood history. So when they don't make the movie you're writing in your head, it makes you angry. Because this isn't the movie you hyped yourself for by writing it in your own head.

Now, do I have my opinions on what I would be doing if I were in charge? Sure I do. But the difference is I don't perceive what I would do as the only path to success. It's simply what I would personally do. Kevin Feige doesn't have to listen to me. I am some nobody who is small potatoes. He's had plenty of success without adopting my model of success.

My advice? Let's see what happens and judge the movies as movies themselves. Not how closely Feige is mirroring your vision. Kang doesn't have to be approached any single way and this can easily develop a new Avengers team and Kang in the same movie if executed properly. It doesn't have to be the Kang show with 1000 cameos to be good. Marvel doesn't lack balls by not doing things your way. They're simply telling a different story, or alternately the same story a different way. Absolutely nothing precludes portraying Kang like a multiversal storm or whatever while being an Avengers focused movie. Love Craftian horror stories don't star Cthulu as the main character.

 

[Ninjablade]

Also, I'm laughing at the idea that the only way Kang now has a chance of being a credible threat is to just randomly start killing all the side Avengers the same way Thanos did. As if I didn't watch him lose to Ant-Man and The Wasp.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Also, I'm laughing at the idea that the only way Kang now has a chance of being a credible threat is to just randomly start killing all the side Avengers the same way Thanos did. As if I didn't watch him lose to Ant-Man and The Wasp.

That and Sylvie killed He Who Remains. So 2/2 on that front

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think the greatest mistake they made with Infinity War and Endgame was diluting the Avengers brand. Because now, everyone expects everyone to be in it. And its going to cause issues if they aren't. Its sort like the problem with the next Smash Bros. When it doesn't have everyone, it is going to disappoint people. I don't foresee the FF being in Kang Dynasty.

Hell, based on what has been said, getting Thor back may be an issue.

I think Thor will be back for KD and such. But other than that, I agree. I think Loveness and co are sort of hinting that KD is gonna be more about the Avengers than about the Marvel Universe and cameos based on interviews, and I do kind of think it's gonna get a AoU like perception because of that. The movie isn't even filmed and we are already seeing "WHERE ARE THE FF AND X-MEN" complaints for it. It's wild to me.

 

[Marvel Unified]

You know what I think your problem is and why the MCU is turning you off right now? Because you are writing a movie/phase in your head right now, and I am guessing you are doing this with other projects and such given how you constantly use your opinion as the basis of what Feige should be doing otherwise he knows nothing despite making the largest franchise in Hollywood history. So when they don't make the movie you're writing in your head, it makes you angry. Because this isn't the movie you hyped yourself for by writing it in your own head.

Now, do I have my opinions on what I would be doing if I were in charge? Sure I do. But the difference is I don't perceive what I would do as the only path to success. It's simply what I would personally do. Kevin Feige doesn't have to listen to me. I am some nobody who is small potatoes. He's had plenty of success without adopting my model of success.

My advice? Let's see what happens and judge the movies as movies themselves. Not how closely Feige is mirroring your vision. Kang doesn't have to be approached any single way and this can easily develop a new Avengers team and Kang in the same movie if executed properly. It doesn't have to be the Kang show with 1000 cameos to be good. Marvel doesn't lack balls by not doing things your way. They're simply telling a different story, or alternately the same story a different way. Absolutely nothing precludes portraying Kang like a multiversal storm or whatever while being an Avengers focused movie. Love Craftian horror stories don't star Cthulu as the main character.

Feige is a giant in this industry, there's no denying that. But just because he spent a great majority of his career making all the right choices, doesn't mean he can't make wrong ones as well. Feige isn't infallible, or perfect, he's prone to error just like the rest of us.

And in my opinion (which is fair), he's made some very poor decisions as of late. From a writing standpoint, some of the things I'm suggesting, would make for an *objectively* better film, and you don't have to be a studio head to know the principle elements of good storytelling -- e.g. stakes, and consequences, and proper payoff to narrative threads (that Quantumania) that were set up earlier in the narrative.

This is not "my" vision, I'm simply building on what they've already established in their own films, about this character, what he can do, what he does, and the conflict he brings to the story.

I'm building on their* foundation, perhaps better than they will. I'm not sure my judgement is thattt much lower on the credibility hierarchy, than the dude who wrote Quantumania, whom Feige, for some reason, still has not fired.

(Poor decision making)

Also, I'm laughing at the idea that the only way Kang now has a chance of being a credible threat is to just randomly start killing all the side Avengers the same way Thanos did. As if I didn't watch him lose to Ant-Man and The Wasp.

Who said they'd all be side Avengers? Who said characters like Sam Wilson, Bucky, or Thor wouldn't be on the chopping block? Didn't Iger recently say that trilogies, and sequels are no longer a necessity?

The plot armor is off

 

[Marvel Unified]

That and Sylvie killed He Who Remains. So 2/2 on that front

...After literally manipulating every aspect of her existence, from the moment she was born, up to the moment she met him, and he LET her, kill him.

He Who Remains was a god, with incomprehensible power. Dude had his low-level employees playing with Infinity Stones like tennis balls.

What can Sam Wilson do against that?